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Posted: 1/16/2006 9:21:20 PM EDT
I say .45

My buddy says 10mm.

A dinner is riding on this...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:21:53 PM EDT
.45

Just because
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:23:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:24:30 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Define "stopping power" please.


(I'm not sure it's a simple as purely kinetic energy either )
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:23:50 PM EDT
.45acp is the tactical nuclear weapon of personal defense
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:24:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:24:45 PM EDT by yobo]
The one you are more accurate with will give you better stopping power.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:24:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:25:18 PM EDT by Sukebe]
A .45 will put a hole the size of a man hole cover in you. It will literally knock a man off his feet.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:24:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Define "stopping power" please.




good point...

he says the 10mm is way more powerful than the .45, which is bs to me...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:24:50 PM EDT
Full power shot loads?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:25:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:28:59 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
10mm (regular/full power) has more energy than any .45acp

.45acp for PEOPLE
10mm for animals

10mm is like an auto magnum

which would i rate as having more "stopping power"? 10mm
h/w, top loads are just a tad too much for PD/SD on people, so i carry the .45acp
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:26:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
A .45 will put a hole the size of a man hole cover in you. It will literally knock a man off his feet.



Even if you shoot him in the tip of his pinkie finger, even!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:27:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:27:16 PM EDT by TheRedHorseman]

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
A .45 will put a hole the size of a man hole cover in you. It will literally knock a man off his feet.



Even if you shoot him in the tip of his pinkie finger, even!



just because 45 is a bigger number than 10
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:27:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:28:53 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Define "stopping power" please.




good point...

he says the 10mm is way more powerful than the .45, which is bs to me...




He might be trying to say that it is more energetic - which you could roughly calculate by mutliplying bullet weight and velocity for each round, and see which is greater.

But, I think how much of that energy is TRANSFERRED to the target is part of what "stopping power" probably means, and that may depend on other factors - like for instance the larger cross section of the .45

I remember part of the marketing for the CorBon 400 was that it was very fast (i.e. high energy) but was supposedly able to "dump" a lot of its energy on impact. Don't know how true that is.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:28:23 PM EDT
A place to start with some basic numbers...

www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:28:32 PM EDT
According to a Canadian gun owner the .45 is the 12" artillery of personal handguns....capable of blowing bodies back 50 feet.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:28:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Define "stopping power" please.




good point...

he says the 10mm is way more powerful than the .45, which is bs to me...



I'd say that the 10mm generates more energy, but may not transfer as much to the target.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:28:58 PM EDT
Probably the 10mm with the right loads. IE a FMJ round will zip right through the target, where a good 10 mm HP will hit real hard.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:30:11 PM EDT
10mm has around 200 ft/lbs more muzzle energy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a better man stopper.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:30:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Define "stopping power" please.




good point...

he says the 10mm is way more powerful than the .45, which is bs to me...




He might be trying to say that it is more energetic - which you could roughly calculate by mutliplying bullet weight and velocity for each round, and see which is greater.

But, I think how much of that energy is TRANSFERRED to the target is part of what "stopping power" probably means, and that may depend on other factors - like for instance the larger cross section of the .45




exactly, the transference of energy is by far the equation which means more to stopping power to me than energy velocity...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:31:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Define "stopping power" please.




good point...

he says the 10mm is way more powerful than the .45, which is bs to me...



I'd say that the 10mm generates more energy, but may not transfer as much to the target.



I think I am confused. Are you saying the 10mm would exit the otherside of whatever it hits?

Because if they both stay in the target and do not exit, because the 10mm started with more energy than the .45, more energy would be transferred to the target.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:33:20 PM EDT
10mm Norma...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:33:20 PM EDT
if you go 45+p against a 10mm then I'll go with 45, if non +p then I'll go with the 10mm

same gr of bullet
10 MM AUTO 165 GR. JHP 1250FPS/537FTLBS

45 AUTO +P 165 GR. JHP 1250FPS/573FTLBS

the 45 can go heavier
45 AUTO +P 185 GR. JHP 1150FPS/543FTLBS

45 AUTO +P 200 GR. JHP 1050FPS/490FTLBS

45 AUTO +P 230 GR. JHP 950FPS/461FTLBS (what I carry, and have seen what it will do to living things)


Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:34:18 PM EDT
10mm is a bad mofo.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:36:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:37:19 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By John91498:
exactly, the transference of energy is by far the equation which means more to stopping power to me than energy velocity...



Not true.
Its all about the wound channel. The one that goes in at the diameter of hte bullet and goes out the size of a softball is the one with more stopping power. The one the goes in and opens up and rips tissue is the one that has more stopping power.


Again, its not about transferring the energy into the taget. Its about damage done to tissue.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:36:24 PM EDT
Interesting thread. I will relate my ONLY experience with the 10mm.

In 1994 I took a tour of our agencies' criminal ballistics center. During the tour, the head weapons specialist showed us the water "trap" they use to shoot a particular weapon into, in order to retrieve the round for evidential purposes. He told us that the only round to go through the whole tank of water (about 5-6 feet down?), and through the metal "catch" basket, was a 10mm round. He showed us the hole in the basket.

He also stated that the only handgun round to go through our issue vests was the 10mm, at that time.

Just my .02, fwiw.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:39:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:39:51 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]
I am glad that the above poster mentioned a vest. Its a good example of why transferance of energy is does not equao stopping power.

Take 12 OO buck. Fire into a person wearing a vest and while 100% of the energy is absorbed into the vest and the person wearing it, not tissue damage was done.

Take off the vest and repeat.
CH
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:46:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By John91498:
exactly, the transference of energy is by far the equation which means more to stopping power to me than energy velocity...



Not true.
Its all about the wound channel. The one that goes in at the diameter of hte bullet and goes out the size of a softball is the one with more stopping power. The one the goes in and opens up and rips tissue is the one that has more stopping power.


Again, its not about transferring the energy into the taget. Its about damage done to tissue.



but without the transference, then there would be no wound channel...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:49:38 PM EDT
10mm Automatic
Winchester 175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity- 1290fps Muzzle Energy-649

I love the .45, but it ain't gonna top numbers like that.

As for an energy transfer, this load was noted by one tester for it's unique tendancy to consitentley break the plates he used to hold ballistic gelatin. THAT is an energy dump!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:50:23 PM EDT
10mm for wildlife
.45 for people...

people just arent deep enough for all the penetration that 10mm gives
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:53:07 PM EDT
I have seen real human bodies hit with both.
I don't know the loads or bullet types, The .45 has fewer exit rounds in my experiance but when they did they were larger, was one more deadly then the other, well the .45 wound was harder to handle in non leathal hits. In lethal hits, they were both dead so it did not make a dif. If there was not an exit wound, it was all pucker factor because you had no idea what was hit.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:56:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
10mm Automatic
Winchester 175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity- 1290fps Muzzle Energy-649

I love the .45, but it ain't gonna top numbers like that.
<snip>



Thus the reason I moved from ACP to Supers, Supers have those numbers, plus a bit.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:56:47 PM EDT
I wouldn't want to be shot with either.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:02:20 PM EDT
trying to compare apples to apples

10mm Automatic
175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1290fps, 647ft/lbs

45 Automatic
185 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1000fps, 411ft/lbs

now for everyone that doesnt know. 10mm is 0.39" thats .06" smaller then the .45. thats about 1/16th. you judge for yourself, identical type of bullet, 290fps faster, 236ft/lbs more energy, 1/16" smaller hole.

stopping power is a bs term. you hit a guy with a 45 in the arm or you hit the guy in the chest, they will have two completly different affects. you hit a guy with a 10mm in the chest will have two completly different affects if that guy where drunk/stoned. bullet type and shot placement are the most critical. id rather put a .22 in some guys head before a 45 in the arm or a 10 in the leg.

i vote for 10mm

i think both rounds are great for personal protection. use what youre comfortable with.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:05:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pdynak:
trying to compare apples to apples

10mm Automatic
175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1290fps, 647ft/lbs

45 Automatic
185 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1000fps, 411ft/lbs

now for everyone that doesnt know. 10mm is 0.39" thats .06" smaller then the .45. thats about 1/16th. you judge for yourself, identical type of bullet, 290fps faster, 236ft/lbs more energy, 1/16" smaller hole.

stopping power is a bs term. you hit a guy with a 45 in the arm or you hit the guy in the chest, they will have two completly different affects. you hit a guy with a 10mm in the chest will have two completly different affects if that guy where drunk/stoned. bullet type and shot placement are the most critical. id rather put a .22 in some guys head before a 45 in the arm or a 10 in the leg.

i vote for 10mm

i think both rounds are great for personal protection. use what youre comfortable with.



k, say you hit the guy in the arm...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:06:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:07:25 PM EDT by twonami]

Originally Posted By pdynak:
trying to compare apples to apples

10mm Automatic
175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1290fps, 647ft/lbs

45 Automatic
185 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point

1000fps, 411ft/lbs



Double Tap gold dot, even closer bullet size: 180gr. @ 1300fps/ 676ft/lbs- ouch!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:09:58 PM EDT
If you have good fast opening HPs that stay together the 10mm will do it
if you are just zipping through the 10mm should still have an edge with
Temp expansion cavity
and I carry 45s exclusively
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John91498:

k, say you hit the guy in the arm...



both im assuming will rip right though. the 10mm entry wound will be 1/16" smaller. exit wound, who knows. both cases the guy wont have much of a functional arm left.

this is just a revised version of 9mm vs 45. pointless and impossible to argue one way or the other. so many factors to consider, i just hope none of us need to find out first hand.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pdynak:
trying to compare apples to apples




how are you doing that comparing a magnum round to one that is not, a fairer comparison is a 45+p to a magnum round
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:25:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By pdynak:
trying to compare apples to apples


how are you doing that comparing a magnum round to one that is not, a fairer comparison is a 45+p to a magnum round



10MM Magnum is a heavy duty, lengthened 10MM Auto. O.A.L. of 1.250 CANNOT BE USED IN STANDARD 10MM PISTOL
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:29:00 PM EDT
.45 gets my vote


there is to many over thinkers here.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:29:53 PM EDT
Either of them with bullets designed to do their job at their respective velocities are quite effectively, probably to the point of being equal, at least in my eyes.

there are pros and cons to each, and not enough advantage to either to call one better than the other.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:39:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Either of them with bullets designed to do their job at their respective velocities are quite effectively, probably to the point of being equal, at least in my eyes.

there are pros and cons to each, and not enough advantage to either to call one better than the other.



exactly like every other reasonable round comparison. it ussually always come down to shot placement in my eyes. i could find any combination id be comfortable carrying. although illinois has taken care of that problem for me anyways, so why worry
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:44:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By John91498:
exactly, the transference of energy is by far the equation which means more to stopping power to me than energy velocity...



Not true.
Its all about the wound channel. The one that goes in at the diameter of hte bullet and goes out the size of a softball is the one with more stopping power. The one the goes in and opens up and rips tissue is the one that has more stopping power.


Again, its not about transferring the energy into the taget. Its about damage done to tissue.



but without the transference, then there would be no wound channel...



I'd have to agree with Cape_hunter on this. Energy transference doesn't matter nearly as much as fragmentation. Granted one must have a certain minimun energy to carry the bullet through the body. However, if one bullet fragments more causing a bigger wound channel then that's the better round.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:47:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:55:41 PM EDT by GackMan]
there is no such thing as 'stopping power'

10mm has more energy than a .45.

they both suck because no matter how powerful you load 'em... they are still pistols and let's face it, pistols suck for shooting things.

Compare the above info to the 5.56

55gr FMJ going 3240fps delivers energy of 1280
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:50:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GackMan:
there is no such thing as 'stopping power'

10mm has more energy than a .45.

they both suck because no matter how powerful you load 'em... they are still pistols and let's face it, pistols suck for shooting things.




But if that's all you've got...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:52:24 PM EDT
The one that makes the biggest wound channel wins
it just depends on how the bullet acts with each one
most everything from 9mm up with good placement
will kill you pretty dead
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:53:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:56:17 PM EDT by PaDanby]

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By pdynak:
trying to compare apples to apples




how are you doing that comparing a magnum round to one that is not, a fairer comparison is a 45+p to a magnum round



As close as possible bullet weights of the same design in a standard commercially available cartridge, in similar pistols for similar applications, as opposed to comparing a velocity light hollowpoint to a heavy slow FMJ. Or throwing a .44 magnum 8" as a comparison.

I happen to prefer 185 jhp in my 45 compared to 230 grn fmj if I was to ever carry.. So these figures make the 10mm look like a viable alternative.

But I'm not going to rush right out and buy one.



Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:54:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:59:00 PM EDT by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
10mm Automatic
Winchester 175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity- 1290fps Muzzle Energy-649

I love the .45, but it ain't gonna top numbers like that.
<snip>



Thus the reason I moved from ACP to Supers, Supers have those numbers, plus a bit.



I would also consider a 45 super to be more comparable. You can fire the Super from any quality 45acp pistol anyhow. It will beat the crap out of it but so will hot 10mms.

This is from Buffalo Bore with a .45 super loading they offer. It's a 230gr JHP.
Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs

This is the buffalo bore 185gr JHP
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 694 ft. lbs.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:56:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
10mm Automatic
Winchester 175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity- 1290fps Muzzle Energy-649

I love the .45, but it ain't gonna top numbers like that.
<snip>



Thus the reason I moved from ACP to Supers, Supers have those numbers, plus a bit.



I would also consider a 45 super to be more comparable. You can fire the Super from any quality 45acp pistol anyhow. It will beat the crap out of it but so will hot 10mms.


Glock G20 is made to handle the hot 10mm rounds
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:58:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John91498:

Originally Posted By GackMan:
there is no such thing as 'stopping power'

10mm has more energy than a .45.

they both suck because no matter how powerful you load 'em... they are still pistols and let's face it, pistols suck for shooting things.




But if that's all you've got...



I'm just saying, if you are looking for a defensive firearm stop arguing ballistics on the internet and buy a real gun.

you know a person shot with a handgun in the US only has a 5% chance of dying? that is how effective they are.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:02:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By AILapua:

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
10mm Automatic
Winchester 175 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity- 1290fps Muzzle Energy-649

I love the .45, but it ain't gonna top numbers like that.
<snip>



Thus the reason I moved from ACP to Supers, Supers have those numbers, plus a bit.



I would also consider a 45 super to be more comparable. You can fire the Super from any quality 45acp pistol anyhow. It will beat the crap out of it but so will hot 10mms.


Glock G20 is made to handle the hot 10mm rounds



Tsk, tsk, hot 10 mm and Tupperware, can you say, hand grenade?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:04:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
As close as possible bullet weights of the same design in a standard commercially available cartridge, in similar pistols for similar applications, as opposed to comparing a velocity light hollowpoint to a heavy slow FMJ. Or throwing a .44 magnum 8" as a comparison.

I happen to prefer 185 jhp in my 45 compared to 230 grn fmj if I was to ever carry.. So these figures make the 10mm look like a viable alternative.

But I'm not going to rush right out and buy one.




im not leaning one way or the other, i dont have a 10mm just because i dont care for paying premium ammo prices. that or having as many possible choices in bullet types. 10mm numbers obviously look promissing, there is a reason why the fbi initially chose that round. its not the 10mm fault that woman and dandies with small hands couldnt qualify with it.
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