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Posted: 4/29/2015 11:59:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2015 3:02:16 PM EDT by bluefalcon]
Link for phones that don't even






Underwood loaded 140 gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Fracturing Bullet fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 600.2 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,432 fps
Penetration of the base: 19.9"
Retained weight: 81.4 gr

One petal penetrated approximately 10.5" and the other two both penetrated approximately 6.5"

There was no expansion, of course. The recovered base measured 0.393" in diameter and 0.344" long. The petals weighed 19.3 gr, 19.4 gr, 19.4 gr and one of them measured 0.369" x 0.336" x 0.150"
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 12:38:21 PM EDT
No thanks
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 3:02:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
No thanks
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Add it to the list?
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 3:11:12 PM EDT
wow thats pretty shallow..
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 3:15:55 PM EDT
That wouldn't do anything for me..doesnt look like it penetrates deep enough on the petal pieces, maybe if all 3 petals had gone 12+......
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 3:21:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:



Add it to the list?
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
No thanks



Add it to the list?
A bb gun made the list but this is a piss poor 10mm
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 5:40:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
wow thats pretty shallow..
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20" is shallow?!?

Kidding, I get what you're saying. The petals were shallow, but the base went pretty deep.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 6:05:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
A bb gun made the list but this is a piss poor 10mm
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
No thanks



Add it to the list?
A bb gun made the list but this is a piss poor 10mm


The numbers fail from a personal defense standpoint, but in my entirely unprofeshunal opinion, it seems like it would make a halfway decent multipurpose round. It penetrates deeply enough to reach vitals and while the petals don't meet the 12" minimum, they do go deep enough that they should be effective in the majority of situations.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 6:12:56 PM EDT
this is shit
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 6:14:33 PM EDT
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 8:21:19 PM EDT
I don't know if it's fair to compare this to the .300 Blacksnot version. Probably not much correlation. Your point that neither has been adequately tested stands, though.

I do think that this load would have a high probability of stopping a threat in a timely manner, despite its atypical performance.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 8:26:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:


The numbers fail from a personal defense standpoint, but in my entirely unprofeshunal opinion, it seems like it would make a halfway decent multipurpose round. It penetrates deeply enough to reach vitals and while the petals don't meet the 12" minimum, they do go deep enough that they should be effective in the majority of situations.
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
No thanks



Add it to the list?
A bb gun made the list but this is a piss poor 10mm


The numbers fail from a personal defense standpoint, but in my entirely unprofeshunal opinion, it seems like it would make a halfway decent multipurpose round. It penetrates deeply enough to reach vitals and while the petals don't meet the 12" minimum, they do go deep enough that they should be effective in the majority of situations.

I wouldn't mind it for a bear round, but I would worry thats a pretty light hunk left after the petals peel off to use for a bear round.. I think the hard cast 200 grainers are a better choice...
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 11:39:57 PM EDT
That's just the thing. I wouldn't choose it for large animal defense. A 220 gr hard cast would be a much better choice and would drive a lot deeper. I wouldn't choose it for personal defense. The area of the largest disruption doesn't penetrate to the 12" minimum and the base exceeds the 18" maximum by a fair margin. A 165 gr Gold Dot would disrupt more tissue at the 12" depth and would present less risk to uninvolved parties.

I think it would make a better personal defense load than a 220 gr hard cast and a better large animal defense load than a 165 gr Gold Dot. In other words, it doesn't do any one thing that well but I think it does a variety of things kinda-sorta okay. If you want a round that would penetrate more than a jacketed hollow point AND create more disruption than a solid, this might be the ticket.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 11:24:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:



20" is shallow?!?

Kidding, I get what you're saying. The petals were shallow, but the base went pretty deep.
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
wow thats pretty shallow..



20" is shallow?!?

Kidding, I get what you're saying. The petals were shallow, but the base went pretty deep.
9mm fmj goes pretty deep too
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 11:25:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
View Quote
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 1:00:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.

yes! please do

for the record, I was never arguing that it was actually a poor performer - just that they can hold the kool aid until it gets tested properly

but their general attitude, as well as this 10mm turd, ensures that I remain skeptical
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 2:06:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:

yes! please do

for the record, I was never arguing that it was actually a poor performer - just that they can hold the kool aid until it gets tested properly

but their general attitude, as well as this 10mm turd, ensures that I remain skeptical
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.

yes! please do

for the record, I was never arguing that it was actually a poor performer - just that they can hold the kool aid until it gets tested properly

but their general attitude, as well as this 10mm turd, ensures that I remain skeptical
When a company says over and over not to post a video which shows their product in a negative light without contacting them first to work it out, it makes you wonder.

Then there was that whole calling me unprofessional and saying they don't want to work with me for arguing with their gel supplier about his fake certification from the government lol.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 3:29:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
When a company says over and over not to post a video which shows their product in a negative light without contacting them first to work it out, it makes you wonder.

Then there was that whole calling me unprofessional and saying they don't want to work with me for arguing with their gel supplier about his fake certification from the government lol.
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.

yes! please do

for the record, I was never arguing that it was actually a poor performer - just that they can hold the kool aid until it gets tested properly

but their general attitude, as well as this 10mm turd, ensures that I remain skeptical
When a company says over and over not to post a video which shows their product in a negative light without contacting them first to work it out, it makes you wonder.

Then there was that whole calling me unprofessional and saying they don't want to work with me for arguing with their gel supplier about his fake certification from the government lol.

Link Posted: 4/30/2015 4:09:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:
I now feel vindicated for the pissing match I got in the sbr forum when I insisted that lehigh blackout bullets had not been rigorously tested, and should remain dubious
I should test them. I had been contacted by their marketing company and the way they talked to me made me really wonder about their ammo.

yes! please do

for the record, I was never arguing that it was actually a poor performer - just that they can hold the kool aid until it gets tested properly

but their general attitude, as well as this 10mm turd, ensures that I remain skeptical
When a company says over and over not to post a video which shows their product in a negative light without contacting them first to work it out, it makes you wonder.

Then there was that whole calling me unprofessional and saying they don't want to work with me for arguing with their gel supplier about his fake certification from the government lol.

LOL.

He kept saying his ballistic gel was "FBI Certified" and after I asked him multiple times what that was and to show proof he got pissed. Then I got called unprofessional and they said I was "starting drama for no reason" because I called him out on it on his Instagram page

I guess falsely claiming the government has certified a product you sell is no big deal to them lol.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 4:50:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
LOL.

He kept saying his ballistic gel was "FBI Certified" and after I asked him multiple times what that was and to show proof he got pissed. Then I got called unprofessional and they said I was "starting drama for no reason" because I called him out on it on his Instagram page


I guess falsely claiming the government has certified a product you sell is no big deal to them lol.
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I wish I could say I was surprised by any of that, but it seems consistent with what I've seen from them
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 6:59:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
9mm fmj goes pretty deep too
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
wow thats pretty shallow..



20" is shallow?!?

Kidding, I get what you're saying. The petals were shallow, but the base went pretty deep.
9mm fmj goes pretty deep too


Does 9mm FMJ also make a bigass mess of things in the first ten inches?
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 7:05:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MaxTheRabbit:

I wish I could say I was surprised by any of that, but it seems consistent with what I've seen from them
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It's almost like manufacturers of gimmick ammo have something to hide.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 7:07:04 PM EDT
A traditional 165 hollowpoint would do everything that does better.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 9:06:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:


Does 9mm FMJ also make a bigass mess of things in the first ten inches?
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
wow thats pretty shallow..



20" is shallow?!?

Kidding, I get what you're saying. The petals were shallow, but the base went pretty deep.
9mm fmj goes pretty deep too


Does 9mm FMJ also make a bigass mess of things in the first ten inches?
If you want to discuss damage before 10" have at it, but "the base went pretty deep" part doesn't impress me.
Link Posted: 4/30/2015 9:18:51 PM EDT
I realize this is an apples to dump trucks comparison, but this load shows an area of tissue disruption that extends about as far and the core is half the size, half the weight, and only makes it 14". Would you say this is garbage too?

Link Posted: 4/30/2015 9:26:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
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Do you even hydrostatic knockdown power, bro?
Link Posted: 5/2/2015 10:32:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By proud2deviate:


Do you even hydrostatic knockdown power, bro?
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Originally Posted By proud2deviate:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
No thanks


Do you even hydrostatic knockdown power, bro?


LOL. I'm not giving up my Gold Dots for personal defense or my 200 gr XTP for woods defense, but I do believe that this ammunition might not be as worthless as other over priced gimmicks, hydroknocking notwithstanding. I'm no expert myself, so my comments are purely speculative but I would like to hear what the real experts have to say about it.
Link Posted: 5/2/2015 10:39:27 AM EDT
While there are those that like and want lighter bullets for their 10mm's, I am not one of them. Give me a well constructed 180 or higher weight bullet and I am happy. Yes I do carry my G20sf daily and am pleased with the heavier bullets.
Link Posted: 5/2/2015 4:40:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AkBearcat:
While there are those that like and want lighter bullets for their 10mm's, I am not one of them. Give me a well constructed 180 or higher weight bullet and I am happy. Yes I do carry my G20sf daily and am pleased with the heavier bullets.
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My favorites are 165 gr Gold Dot at about 1,300 fps for personal defense in town, 200 gr XTP at about 1,200 fps for general woods defense, and 220 gr hard cast for large animal defense.
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