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Posted: 1/29/2014 6:16:00 AM EDT
What's the significance of "80%"?  Does it change something legally?

Somebody help an ignoramoose '12er out....
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:17:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 7:09:45 AM EDT by LuckyDucky]
An 80% lower is not the frame or receiver of a firearm and therefore is not a firearm.

The 80% number was chosen arbitrarily by the ATF by manufacturer. [ETA: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1586300_What_s_the_deal_with_80__Lowers_.html&page=1#i45373523]

Then since they are not firearms, they are not subject to all the normal firearms laws.


18 USC 921(a)
...
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
...
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:17:55 AM EDT
It's just a big block of aluminum you can have sent to your door.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:19:13 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By Joker117:


It's just a big block of aluminum you can have sent to your door.
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and with a dremel and a few hours of your time..  







you can pew pew!  









Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:20:22 AM EDT
Roger that. Thanks for the replies.

I'm assuming that the status changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:21:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:22:40 AM EDT by Greggo556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Roger that. Thanks for the replies.

I'm assuming that the status changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?
View Quote


Nope. But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed. And you have to machine it yourself.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:22:00 AM EDT
No, that is the beauty of it. An individual can manufacture firearms for personal use.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:22:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Roger that. Thanks for the replies.

I'm assuming that the status changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?
View Quote


Not unless you plan on being "in the business" of manufacturing for sale.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:23:46 AM EDT
As far as I know you can order it through the mail and it not be registered or 4473'd. It is still a hunk as far as govt. is concerned. So it appeals to people for those reasons.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:25:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:29:52 AM EDT by peekay]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sevenator:


Roger that. Thanks for the replies.



I'm assuming that the status
changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have
to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?
View Quote


You'll need to finish them yourself. If you go through an FFL, you'll most likely have to do a 4473 to get it back since they are technically creating a firearm.



You have the option of using a machine shop to finish it.
 
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:26:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:28:46 AM EDT by TacticalHeater]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Shott8283:

 

and with a dremel and a few hours of your time..  


you can pew pew!  



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Originally Posted By Shott8283:
Originally Posted By Joker117:
It's just a big block of aluminum you can have sent to your door.

 

and with a dremel and a few hours of your time..  


you can pew pew!  






False.  According to California State Sen. Kevin de Leon all I need is a buddies drill press and a jig to complete a raw forged lower and it will fire fully automatic at 30 caliber clips in a half second
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:28:34 AM EDT
You can legally make a gun at home for your own personal use (and I think you can then sell it later on if you chose to, but your intent when you make it, can't be to sell it, but don't quote me on that).

The ATF has determined that an AR-15 lower receiver is the actual serialized firearm, and that until it is at 81% complete, it is just a stylized piece of aluminum.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:28:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Greggo556:
But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed.
View Quote


This is probably the most often repeated misconception with regard to firearm made for personal use.
There is no restriction on transferring a firearm one has built for one's own use.

One may not make the firearm with the intent to transfer it. If the intent to transfer it exists at the time it is made, that constitutes "manufacturing" which requires a licnse.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:30:07 AM EDT
Excellent. Thanks for the info.

Have any of you guys done this? Any success stories? Pics?

There's no way I'm going to be able to not do this. LOL
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:30:24 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:


This is probably the most often repeated misconception with regard to firearm made for personal use.
There is no restriction on transferring a firearm one has built for one's own use.

One may not make the firearm with the intent to transfer it. If the intent to transfer it exists at the time it is made, that constitutes "manufacturing" which requires a licnse.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed.


This is probably the most often repeated misconception with regard to firearm made for personal use.
There is no restriction on transferring a firearm one has built for one's own use.

One may not make the firearm with the intent to transfer it. If the intent to transfer it exists at the time it is made, that constitutes "manufacturing" which requires a licnse.

Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:32:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:33:03 AM EDT by SWIRE]
There are 95% lowers available too.  The ATF has issued determination letters stating that a 95% lower is not a firearm.
 



Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:32:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:37:49 AM EDT by AmericanPeople]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Excellent. Thanks for the info.

Have any of you guys done this? Any success stories? Pics?

There's no way I'm going to be able to not do this. LOL
View Quote


Google it.  I have seen some videos on finishing them lately.

Here is one
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:34:29 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Excellent. Thanks for the info.

Have any of you guys done this
? Any success stories? Pics?

There's no way I'm going to be able to not do this. LOL
View Quote






It's a trap.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:34:54 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greggo556:


Nope. But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed. And you have to machine it yourself.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Roger that. Thanks for the replies.

I'm assuming that the status changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?


Nope. But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed. And you have to machine it yourself.


You can sell a homemade firearm, you just cannot manufacture with the intent to sell.

If you decide to sell it at a later date, you need to give it a serial number, and mark it with your name, city and state.  Just like a licensed manufacturer
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:35:13 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
There are 95% lowers available too.  The ATF has issued determination letters stating that a 95% lower is not a firearm.  

http://www.ar15brick.com/index.php/bricks/brick-95-lowers/95-ar15-lower-receiver-forged-non-anodized.html
View Quote


I think that their new opinion is that as long as the area for the FCG isn't milled, then it can't be a firearm. What we call 80% now, probably are much more than 80%, like the receiver extension being cut and threaded.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:35:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:36:21 AM EDT by VacaDuck]
Paul, one of our Site Staff, finishes his own receivers.  He often posts pics in CAHTF.



Here is one of his threads:



http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_11/545000_80__Arms_Lowers.html

Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:35:31 AM EDT
For the price of a PSA lower, you can have a go at one of the polymer ones...



http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/Polymer-Black



I'm thinking it's not gonna be nearly as durable as an aluminum one, but heck, it's something to try.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:37:16 AM EDT
There are some 80% ATF letters on this web page: http://www.openatf.com/rulings
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:41:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:42:55 AM EDT by Tankdawg0057]
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Originally Posted By lugert:

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Originally Posted By lugert:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed.


This is probably the most often repeated misconception with regard to firearm made for personal use.
There is no restriction on transferring a firearm one has built for one's own use.

One may not make the firearm with the intent to transfer it. If the intent to transfer it exists at the time it is made, that constitutes "manufacturing" which requires a licnse.



This.  Good luck finding an ATF agent that actually KNOWS the law correctly though if you were dealing with one out in the real world.  Should Might get worked out later in court though.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:45:46 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShooterPatriot:


You can sell a homemade firearm, you just cannot manufacture with the intent to sell.

If you decide to sell it at a later date, you need to give it a serial number, and mark it with your name, city and state.  Just like a licensed manufacturer
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Originally Posted By ShooterPatriot:
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
Originally Posted By Sevenator:
Roger that. Thanks for the replies.

I'm assuming that the status changes if you mill it to a finished spec? So, then what? Do you have to have a manufacturer FFL to finish them and use them legally?


Nope. But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed. And you have to machine it yourself.


You can sell a homemade firearm, you just cannot manufacture with the intent to sell.

If you decide to sell it at a later date, you need to give it a serial number, and mark it with your name, city and state.  Just like a licensed manufacturer


I'm not even sure if that is 100% correct.  I was under the impression that it was only a "recommendation" by the ATF to do that.  We've done this same thread here a 100 times before, its just been a while since I've seen this topic and can't remember exactly
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:46:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
The 80% number was chosen arbitrarily by the ATF.
View Quote


Minor correction:  ATF does not assign any percentage as to the level of completion. They just make the determination as to whether they consider it a firearm or not.

The 0%, 60%, 80%, 95% numbers are completely arbitrary and chosen by the manufacturer and is more a marketing term than a actual measure of completion.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:47:08 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Joker117:


No, that is the beauty of it. An individual can manufacture firearms for personal use.
View Quote
Unless it requires a stamp - then you need the stamp before you manufacture.



 
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:48:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:50:08 AM EDT by Tankdawg0057]
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Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Unless it requires a stamp - then you need the stamp before you manufacture.
 
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Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Originally Posted By Joker117:
No, that is the beauty of it. An individual can manufacture firearms for personal use.
Unless it requires a stamp - then you need the stamp before you manufacture.
 


That would be an instance where your WOULD have to mark it just like a manufacturer with name / city / state and serial number.  And then of course register it

ETA: as well as asking permission from your local LEO (with exception of a trust purchase while they are still legal...which doesn't seem like it will be much longer)
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:50:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Tankdawg0057:


This.  Good luck finding an ATF agent that actually KNOWS the law correctly though if you were dealing with one out in the real world.  Should Might get worked out later in court though.
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Originally Posted By Tankdawg0057:
Originally Posted By lugert:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Greggo556:
But you cannot sell it to anyone after it is completed.


This is probably the most often repeated misconception with regard to firearm made for personal use.
There is no restriction on transferring a firearm one has built for one's own use.

One may not make the firearm with the intent to transfer it. If the intent to transfer it exists at the time it is made, that constitutes "manufacturing" which requires a licnse.



This.  Good luck finding an ATF agent that actually KNOWS the law correctly though if you were dealing with one out in the real world.  Should Might get worked out later in court though.


At one time the BATFE website had an open letter concerning building a firearm for personal use. It may still be available.
The letter makes it clear that transferring a firearm which was made for personal use is legal.
If you are concerned, obtain a copy of the open latter.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 6:51:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2014 6:55:16 AM EDT by Matt_F]
I prefer the 87% lowers myself...but that's just me.

Way more accurate overall.  1 MOA all day long.
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 7:05:25 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By neilfj:


Minor correction:  ATF does not assign any percentage as to the level of completion. They just make the determination as to whether they consider it a firearm or not.

The 0%, 60%, 80%, 95% numbers are completely arbitrary and chosen by the manufacturer and is more a marketing term than a actual measure of completion.
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Originally Posted By neilfj:
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky:
The 80% number was chosen arbitrarily by the ATF.


Minor correction:  ATF does not assign any percentage as to the level of completion. They just make the determination as to whether they consider it a firearm or not.

The 0%, 60%, 80%, 95% numbers are completely arbitrary and chosen by the manufacturer and is more a marketing term than a actual measure of completion.


Yeah sorry
Link Posted: 1/29/2014 7:06:12 AM EDT
If you are an amateur or professional machinist and enjoy the challenge, go for it!



If not, it's silly to go through that type of effort for something so dirt cheap when professionally (and properly) finished.  It's pretty funny that a guy will buy an 80% from an internet vendor, with a CC and boast about avoiding .gov's eyes online.
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