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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/31/2003 6:28:02 AM EST


I overheard a converstaion at the local gun shop the other day regarding what bullet style should be used for police sniping (.30 cal).  One guy was arguing that only hunting or military FMJ rounds should be used.  He was claiming that match ammo would disentigrate on impact.

The other guy was arguing that only match ammo should be used, even though it should never be used to hunt game.  That it was strong enough to punch a hole in a skull.

This got me thinking, and I started siding with the match ammo line of thinking.  If you are going to have a clear shot (no target cover, body armor, etc..) then it would make sense to use a match grade bullet of the greatest accuracy.  Even though these rounds may not be designed to take game, I would think that a 168 grn match round is "gonna leave a mark"...espeacially on head shots.

So what is the official word from the AR15 gurus?  Please correct me if I am headed down the wrong path.



Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:31:25 AM EST
I'll bet 90%+ of the guys on this board who are LE or military snipers use "match ammo".
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:34:13 AM EST
Match bullets; I would bet a box of bullets that the 168 grain HPBT Sierra MatchKing is the most widely used bullet in LE sniper rifles.  Yes, they are deadly on humans.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:36:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By chriss1069:


I overheard a converstaion at the local gun shop the other day regarding what bullet style should be used for police sniping (.30 cal).  One guy was arguing that only hunting or military FMJ rounds should be used.  He was claiming that match ammo would disentigrate on impact.


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Yeah, another gunstore wannabe. That is who I would believe, the least. He probably does not even know what match ammo is or anything about match shooting, but I would bet he says he does.

Believe about 10% (or less) of what you hear in the average gunshop especially from the "bar flies" that frequent them.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:42:40 AM EST
If you're gonna snipe w/ a .308 or better, your target isn't gonna know the difference in ammo. I think it just comes down to which bullet does best at straight-line penetration through car doors, glass, etc. I've read some studies on the subject, but didn't commit the results to memory. Seems like some soft-point type ammo held its course better than some match bullets when fired through glass.

On the other hand, if the intended target is only 2' at most behind the glass, just how much COULD the bullet be deflected in the first place?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:16:36 AM EST
Every sniper team that I know of, (and I know many), use the Federal Match 168gr. Sierra BTHP.  It is almost a "standard".  Very effective against humans.

Some military snipers prefer the 175 gr. Sierra BTHP for it's higher ballistic coefficient for use at longer ranges.  Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:25:42 AM EST
Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
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Then why the Fuck do the cops need a .50 Cal sniper rifle??????
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:26:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
On the other hand, if the intended target is only 2' at most behind the glass, just how much COULD the bullet be deflected in the first place?
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Sounds like another job for [b]Old_Painless[/b] to dope out!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:26:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By The_Cheat:
Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
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Then why the Fuck do the cops need a .50 Cal sniper rifle??????
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Good question.

I don't know of any that do.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:31:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 7:33:20 AM EST by StariVojnik]
There are also temperature and humidity conditions to take into consideration when sniping long distances. Various conditions could change what type of round a sniper would use on his target.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:30:47 AM EST
Old Painless:

I believe I read that the LAPD SWAT has purchased Barrett .50 BMG rifles.

I too wondered what they needed that for.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:31:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By The_Cheat:
Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
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Then why the Fuck do the cops need a .50 Cal sniper rifle??????
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Good question.

I don't know of any that do.
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LAPD.
Remember the issue with Ronnie Barrett and fixing their Barret .50s?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:35:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 8:38:36 AM EST by photoman]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By The_Cheat:
Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
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Then why the Fuck do the cops need a .50 Cal sniper rifle??????
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Good question.

I don't know of any that do.
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LAPD does.


Ok since i got beat to the punch with the LAPD, I'll answer the why they need one. You've all heard it before- for barricaded suspects!

Now I don't know that a 50 is needed thats just the standard responce I've always been given when I ask the question.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:38:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By The_Cheat:
Civilian police snipers do not shoot at those long ranges.
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Then why the Fuck do the cops need a .50 Cal sniper rifle??????
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Good question.

I don't know of any that do.
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LAPD.
Remember the issue with Ronnie Barrett and fixing their Barret .50s?
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Poor communication on my part.

The question was:  Why do PDs need .50s?

My intended response: I don't know of any that do.  Meaning, I don't think they need 'em.

The military uses Barrets for two main things:

1.  Anti-material use, i.e., shooting big holes through equipment to either blow it up or at least disable it.

2.  Very long range anti-personnel use.

Police departments do not often have these needs.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:47:43 AM EST


One incident does come to mind where a .50 would have helped out the local LEOs.  A suspect had shot a deputy responding to a disturbance.  He then proceeded to barracade himself under an open tool shed with engine blocks etc...with lotsa weapons and ammo.  Several officers were wounded while trying to get this guy out, and the stand off lasted all night.  The SWAT guys could not even get close enough, and he kept shooting out the spot lights etc...and spraying lead in all directions.

Now maybe they could have used NVGs and a crap load of flash bangs and gas...if they could have gotten close enough to deploy it effectively.  But it would have been much easier to just pull back and unload several well placed .50 rounds into the barracade to take out this peice of human trash.

Even though it seems like a nice idea...we all know what the PR fiasco would be for the local LEO's after such an event.  "Why did the police not try to get this obviously frightened and disturbed man out unharmed....we all know that he is mentally unstable and is not at fault for his actions"  [rolleyes]

By the way...has anyone heard of LAPD actually ever using thiers?

...oh...and one more thing...this is my last post for the year...thanks to everyone on the board for the great entertainment, information, and education!

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:59:43 AM EST
Isn't the use of .50 BMG prohibitted against personnel by the military? Or is this an urban myth?

Imagine the law suit that's going to follow when LAPD uses their .50's on some poor subject.

Using .308 surplus ammo (yeah I know) I can make head shots at more than 1200 feet - I can't pick it I the target in the left eye or right eye at that distance but still can hit the face (3 whole MOA accuracy [rolleyes]).

Four hundred yards is about five times further than the typical urban sniper shot. It's pretty easy to find plenty of cover and concealment in an urban setting. Shooting to the far end of my street in either direction is barely 100 yards as an example.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:01:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By KBaker:
Old Painless:

I believe I read that the LAPD SWAT has purchased Barrett .50 BMG rifles.

I too wondered what they needed that for.
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I might be able to shed some light on that...

Over a year ago, Tatjana and I were asked to do some deflection experiments by a SWAT team.  They were most interested in how various bullets performed against aircraft (from a C172 to a 747) windscreens.  Unfortunately, we were unable to perform the experiments at that time.  However, applications like that make the .50bmg a good choice.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:03:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Paul:
Isn't the use of .50 BMG prohibitted against personnel by the military? Or is this an urban myth?
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Myth.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:05:14 AM EST
I would go with the winchester ballistic silver tip.  In 168 grain.


Accurate as the SMK, (boat tail, great bullet)

But as lethal as an expanding hollowpoint.

Best of bothworlds.

TXL

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:13:29 AM EST
168gr HPBT Match
175gr HPBT Match
M118LR Military ammo

A well placed .308 diameter projectile to the CNS/axis of the skull 100yds and under will be a pretty sure death warrant.  Whatever the projectile is.

I use [url=http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfrproductsheet.aspx?symbol=SPG308&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU16QTRJRmRwYm1Ob1pYTjBaWEkrQ­UNVLTNkK0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1icm­FuZGxpc3QrQUQwLW5vbmUrQUNZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGUrQUQ­wLW5vbmU=]150gr Partition Gold[/url] for hunting whitetail.  The one buck I took this year was heart shot at about 80-100yds...no exit wound, backside lung came out in three pieces...heart had a v-groove transecting it, the size of my pinky finger/ring finger.

The buck ran about 30 yds and dropped...

Pretty damn effective...100% energy transfer in to the target.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:43:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
I would go with the winchester ballistic silver tip.  In 168 grain.
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I think you are right about this bullet.  Much better as a deer hunting round.


Accurate as the SMK, (boat tail, great bullet)
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Not to pick nits, but [u]nothing[/u] will match the accuracy of the Sierra BTHP.

Now, as a hunting round, the extra couple of millimeters of accuracy would not be a real issue.  But, having loaded many, many different .308 bullets, I can assure you that nothing is in the same league as a Sierra bullet as far as accuracy is concerned.

I even bought some Hornady A-Max bullets because I had read good reports about them.  Man!  Those bullets [b]look[/b] like they ought to be the most accurate bullet in the world.

But after shooting several hundred, I was forced to admit...I'll never get them to shoot into as small groups as Sierras.

Did the same with Noslers.  Great looking bullets.  And, like the Hornadys, they shoot great.  But they can't shoot like Sierras.

And, no, I don't work for Sierra. [:D]


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Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:48:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Not to pick nits, but [u]nothing[/u] will match the accuracy of the Sierra BTHP.
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O_P:

Have you tried those projectiles from Lost River Ballistics?  Since you are mentioning an actual trial and error methodology, I was wondering if you had used them.  They tout some pretty SWEET BC's and such, and some pretty tight record groups.

Just curious....

Does the M118LR use a Sierra projectile?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:52:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 11:55:45 AM EST by AZ-K9]
As far as LEO's having 50's.

I remember a certain loonie who stole a tank not so long ago in San Diego......

I remember several barricaded persons where the barricades were "hardened".

I can think of several potential methods that terrorists may use that would require disabling an explosive filled semi-tractor at an extended range. Maybe even detonation. [:D]

Some of you fellas are the "what'cha need that there assault rifle for?" crowd in a different skirt.....
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:01:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

O_P:

Have you tried those projectiles from Lost River Ballistics?  Since you are mentioning an actual trial and error methodology, I was wondering if you had used them.  They tout some pretty SWEET BC's and such, and some pretty tight record groups.

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Nope, I haven't.  I've actually not even seen any.  I'd be glad to give them a run if I ever found some.

I've heard good things about some small company bullets like Bergers, but most of my experimenting is with major brands.

Just curious....

Does the M118LR use a Sierra projectile?
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Not familiar with M118LR designation.  Is that military match?

I have a friend that is a double Distinguished Marksman (yes, that's right, twice) and he told me that when he was shooting in the Army matches, they used something they called Mexican Match.

It was standard military match rounds, that they had pulled the bullets and replaced them with 168 gr. Sierra BTHPs.  He said they shot great.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:21:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Just curious....

Does the M118LR use a Sierra projectile?
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Yes.  A 175gr SMK.
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