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Posted: 3/18/2001 7:19:02 PM EDT
This is a question for any LEO. I am sure that most of you would say that you think things like the magazine and assault weapon bans are unconstitutional. You also say that you will stand up and put your life on the line if and when you are given an order that is unconstitutional. Obviously this is not the case because I have yet to hear of police protests in NY, CA, or IL about the unconstitutionality of the laws being passed there. My question is when will the laws become unconstitional enough that you make the stand you talk about.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 8:57:38 PM EDT
Probably about the same time you do, sport.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 8:59:26 PM EDT
Hahahahaha ^5 Sparky

Hunter out...
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 9:19:11 PM EDT
Probably about the same time you do, sport.
View Quote

Unfortunately, if "sport" made a stand today and it was truely a STAND ... you'd have to arrest him for something I'm sure ... and if you decided to stand with him ... your partner would arrest both of you.[BD]
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 9:39:38 PM EDT
IMHO, I think a large part of thereason LEOs don't make a bigger stand is because only a select few of them really know what the laws are or about any of the laws coming into enforcement.  I have meet many cops that didn't realize it was legal to own an AR15 or AK47.  Others I have talked to didn't know the proper laws pertaining to the transportation of firearms in ones car.  I know that not all LEOs are trhis way, but here in the big city I find a lot of them quite ignorant in this area.

Link Posted: 3/18/2001 9:55:26 PM EDT
Alot of the cadets that enter the academy have never even fired a weapon before. I have alot of cops come by the shop here and ask me to unload or disassemble guns they have taken off someone prior to impound. You are right , alot of cops are gun ignorant. [@:D]
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 11:13:21 PM EDT
Actually most I know and myself included don't care if you have a magazine over 10 rounds. It doesn't matter. One ten round or 2 five round. both equal ten. The only reason I would ever care about anything being pre or post, 5 or 10, big or small is if I was arresting someone for something else such as possession of narcotics, etc. If you were caught in the middle of a robbery and had an illegal gun, mag, car, hat, or fountain pen you can bet I would charge you with it. But it is highly unlikely for anyone else to get charged with anything along those lines.

As far as police protesting... The FOP still has a suit regarding the unconstitutionality of the Federal law pertaining to battery convictions and firearms possession. I know that most of you will say that this is because it directly affects some LEO and this is true, however most LEO's and the FOP don't realize that the other laws have an affect on them also. If not now, then in the future. I try everyday to spread the word. For those of you who believe that LEO's aren't gunfriendly or knowledgable about the topic, why not befriend one. Take them hunting. Target shooting. Dinner. Lead them to the light.

Regarding the comments about firearms ownership and familiarity among LEO's. This is not true. Just like the rest of the population it spans the entire spectrum. I know one Deputy whose house has an entire room full of safes. Damn thing looks like Fort Knox. He has just about everything I could imagine and a few I've never heard of.

Just my opinion. Not meant to offend, upset, or piss anyone off.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 11:21:04 PM EDT
Hey Rickyj ask an ATF agent that question they work more in depth on that subject than I do.  Can't say for myself because I've yet to be given an unconstitional order.  
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 12:05:08 AM EDT
First, I would like to know what kind of stand Rickyj would like to see us take. Refuse to obey orders and lose our job ? Alot of decisions get made everyday for all of us in this country with no regard of what we the people think or want. Numerous laws get put into play by politicians or organizations that claim to know what citizens and the Police need to keep us "safe". We as Officers get very little say if any in this process. I know for a fact that the majority of Officers feel the same way you do, but are stuck in the middle. You cant afford to lose your job, and neither can we. I for one would like to see the public at large take a bigger stand on these issues instead of leaving it up for the Police to do.
I will agree that there are Officers that are not well versed in all aspects of the law, but that is the case in all professions.
Remember, we are citizens too. We want the same things other law abiding citizens want: peace, freedom, and safety from those who choose to break the law. Not laws that only affect us, and not the Dirtbags committing the crimes in the first place...Pat
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 1:10:23 AM EDT
I think we draw the line in the sand the same place everuone else does, Door to door confiscation.

Link Posted: 3/19/2001 1:40:41 AM EDT
RJ if I were you I would be less concerned about the rank and file LEO's and more concerned about your ignorant neighbors.  LEO's as a percentage are far more pro-RKBA than the average citizen.

Link Posted: 3/19/2001 6:04:31 AM EDT
Here in NY, the entire state's laws are skewed thanks to the NYC factor. Upstate NY is an entirely different beast , and a lot of these idiotic laws are passed because of the attitude of NYC legislators.
 Probably states with major metro centers, such as Southern California, find themselves in the same boat.
 I support the lawful possession of firearms by citizens, since someday I plan on retiring and don't want to find myself disarmed. I think most officers in my area agree with me. Officers are like any other cross section of the population; you'll find a wide range of opinions.
I didn't know about the FOP suit.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 12:19:32 PM EDT
When I reread my post it did seem like I was trying to do a little bit of LEO bashing but that is not the way that I meant it.
I was thinking more along the lines of why don't you stand up and say that you believe in the citizens rights to bear arms. A well respected police force will have a lot more sway in convincing the general public, and my ignorant neighbors, that guns in the hands of responsible citizens do no harm. I would like to convince my neighbors that guns are actually good, but the ones who truly hate guns would probably call the cops and be even more antigun if I even mentioned it. If these same people heard from a police department that the best way to protect yourself from a violent criminal was to purchase a gun and learn how to use it in an NRA training course, they would listen. We need someone who has the respect of the country to stand for these things because gun owners and the NRA have been demonized, the anti's will not believe us no matter what facts we provide. Police forces on the other hand have their respect and you deal with crime on a much more regular basis, giving your opinion much more weight.

Sparky315 - you are full of it, you would be the first one to arrest me if I made a stand of any kind.

jadams951 - I think that the BATF is a lot more responsible for the unconstitutional orders than the city police but I would think of them as a law enforcement agency as well.
Lawdawg - I think just about everybody would try to stand if an order of door to door confiscation was made but they will NEVER make that order. These guys are smart, they take weapons away one by one, first evil assault weapons, then military sniper rifles, all steps small enough that it is hard to argue about. Eventually we will get down to nothing more than 22's and it will be hard to make a stand when the BATF comes rollin' down the street in a tank.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 3:13:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 4:25:33 PM EDT
I'm full of it, huh?  Tell you what, little buddy, you have no idea at all what I am or what I would do.  Police departments do not come out in favor of citizens' right to bear arms because for the most part, they are not allowed to.  Even though the majority of rank and file officers are, in my opinion, pro-gun, they are restricted in what they can say publicly.  The administrators who would have to authorize such a proclamation have to answer to the politicians that YOU elect, and they are generally forbidden to do so.  Officers have been sanctioned internally for being pro-gun on duty, and sometimes even off duty.  Like it or not, cops just don't have the same 1st amendment rights you do.  Almost every department has the amorphous 'conduct unbecoming an officer' or 'bringing discredit upon the agency' clause in their code of conduct that can be and sometimes is used against officers who get involved in politics.

And maybe your post wasn't meant to be 'a little bit of LEO bashing', but that's how it came across.  If we generalized about non-LEO gun owners the way you do about LEO's, you'd be all over us in righteous indignation.  Remember, we don't make these crappy gun laws or any other laws, for that matter.  In many states, the legislatures don't particularly care what the line cops think, and we just don't have that much influence over what they do.  And the anti's don't like us either- they just like to use our fallen members as an excuse for gun control laws.

Your last post just reinforces your first one- you don't have the nuts to 'make a stand' yourself, you want someone else to do it for you.  You want the police to come out on your behalf?  Convince your sheriff and chief of police, not us.  They really don't give a crap what we have to say, we just work for them.

And BTW, there are police organizations that do publicly endorse EVERY citizen's right to keep and bear arms.  The politicians and anti-gunners hate them.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 5:05:18 PM EDT
I was a street officer for 16 years before getting other assignments, and since 1994 have been a uniformed investigator assigned to a platoon. I have 26 years of service.

The direct approach to disobedience to laws quickly leads one to be out of a job.

I can see there might be a situation that arises where this is the only right course of action BUT it would/could lead to being fired.
Obviously this would be a drastic kind of circumstance.

Other than that one finds ways to speak to people and in particular groups of people, starting with school children, community watch meetings and other community meetings and events, both formal and informal.

Other officers/supervisors are not always happy to hear the truth being spoken.

For example the first community watch organizational meeting I attended I asked the question of who there believed if someone was breaking into their home, with them inside, could call the police and we would respond in minutes and save them.
About 1/2 of the crowd raised their hands.

I said guess again and recited how long it really took us to respond from time of call to arrival.  

About 8-9 minutes.

Then I asked if they owned a front door that could withstand a determined man for 8 minutes.

Then we got into self defense.

To make a long story short the officer that invited me to the meeting raised hell with me for telling the people the truth. Never mind he was asked to conduct more security surveys and made more door and window lock recommendations than any other meeting he had.

A smart man picks and choses his battles. He learns after a while to hold his peace over the minor issues and seek promotion and position within the organization so he can affect it from the inside out.

If he can lead or encourage 5 men to do what is right he has increased his effectiveness 5 fold. If he has a hand in recruitment and training he eventually effects a majority of the department over the span of years.

I call it planting seeds.

The most important act we all can perform is to become involved in the political process from the local level up and use the system to insure we do not have anymore unconstitutional laws.

Now that there is conservative control in Washington is not the time to slack up. It is time for more effort to push through corrective legislation.

Link Posted: 3/19/2001 6:28:26 PM EDT
I've seen plenty of pre-ban features on post ban weapons while on duty.  I consider it ATF's job to fool with that, not mine.  If a guy should choose to use that "illegal" weapon in a drug crime or on me, I wouldn't have a problem adding that insignificant extra weapons charge on him.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 10:25:10 PM EDT
Spark315....Amen Brother!!!!By the way, those department policies you are talking about are oh so true with my P.D. You hit the nail on da head !!![smash]
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