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Link Posted: 8/17/2017 1:10:59 PM EDT
[#1]
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There is a third option:  Bellum Romanum.  Destroy all the infrastructure that supports the natives, kill all their men, enslave the women and children and ship THEM off to distant parts of the empire, then resettle with your own population.  The Romans and Mongols would approve.  The US won't do that, but it's the only thing that would work in an Arab/Islamic country like Iraq.
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That only works when the Romans were actively trying to conquer a land. Most times they weren't, they were totally happy with having the locals do everything as long as the locals paid their tribute. When they rebelled, they did bare minimum to end the rebellion to get coin flowing again. And that was much easier back then because small groups of rebels didn't have AKs, RPGs, and IEDs. Had the Spanish guerrillas (who took almost 200 years to finally quell) possessed force multipliers capable of fucking up Roman legions outside of pitched battles, then Spain would never had gone Roman.

Besides, times have changed. Culture has changed. We don't do genocide for the same reason we don't beat our wives to death for burning dinner, sell our sons into slavery for disappointing us, watch gladiators fight to the death, cut the throats of animals to please Gods, nor do we kill ourselves at the drop of a hat to maintain honor.  You bring back genocide, you're bringing back a whole lot of that stuff too. And you're going to be promoting people to high rank and positions of great power simply because they are really good at Mexican drug cartel/ISIS levels of violence and terror. While that will likely happen to American in the near future, when it does we're the ones who will have to deal with that stuff and it wont be fun.

If there is a less extreme means of achieving success, I'm willing to give it a try. The issue isn't that those techniques don't work, they do, its that 90% of the US military tasked with doing it either wont (because they don't believe in it) or they don't understand it (because they're ignorant or idiots). Imagine a factory where the workers decide on their own that they wont be making a car how the bosses tell them to, how the machines are set up, because they are ideologically opposed to making cars that way. Does management let them do their own thing? Or do they fire their asses in a the most blatant manner possible to make an example to all the others, "YOU WILL FOLLOW ORDERS!"
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 5:41:51 PM EDT
[#2]
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That only works when the Romans were actively trying to conquer a land. Most times they weren't, they were totally happy with having the locals do everything as long as the locals paid their tribute. When they rebelled, they did bare minimum to end the rebellion to get coin flowing again. And that was much easier back then because small groups of rebels didn't have AKs, RPGs, and IEDs. Had the Spanish guerrillas (who took almost 200 years to finally quell) possessed force multipliers capable of fucking up Roman legions outside of pitched battles, then Spain would never had gone Roman.

Besides, times have changed. Culture has changed. We don't do genocide for the same reason we don't beat our wives to death for burning dinner, sell our sons into slavery for disappointing us, watch gladiators fight to the death, cut the throats of animals to please Gods, nor do we kill ourselves at the drop of a hat to maintain honor.  You bring back genocide, you're bringing back a whole lot of that stuff too. And you're going to be promoting people to high rank and positions of great power simply because they are really good at Mexican drug cartel/ISIS levels of violence and terror. While that will likely happen to American in the near future, when it does we're the ones who will have to deal with that stuff and it wont be fun.

If there is a less extreme means of achieving success, I'm willing to give it a try. The issue isn't that those techniques don't work, they do, its that 90% of the US military tasked with doing it either wont (because they don't believe in it) or they don't understand it (because they're ignorant or idiots). Imagine a factory where the workers decide on their own that they wont be making a car how the bosses tell them to, how the machines are set up, because they are ideologically opposed to making cars that way. Does management let them do their own thing? Or do they fire their asses in a the most blatant manner possible to make an example to all the others, "YOU WILL FOLLOW ORDERS!"
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A Western Civ professor whose class I took said something along the lines of that the Romans prefered to assimilate non-Romans than actually fight them, as Rome had more to gain from it.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:05:02 PM EDT
[#3]
I understand his frustration, but all that went in one ear, out the other. Stupid fucks don't care about:
The US
Their Country
Anything..except:
Man love thursday
their goat friend
how they can screw over anyone else so they can get more of..anything
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:24:02 PM EDT
[#4]
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That only works when the Romans were actively trying to conquer a land. Most times they weren't, they were totally happy with having the locals do everything as long as the locals paid their tribute. When they rebelled, they did bare minimum to end the rebellion to get coin flowing again. And that was much easier back then because small groups of rebels didn't have AKs, RPGs, and IEDs. Had the Spanish guerrillas (who took almost 200 years to finally quell) possessed force multipliers capable of fucking up Roman legions outside of pitched battles, then Spain would never had gone Roman.

Besides, times have changed. Culture has changed. We don't do genocide for the same reason we don't beat our wives to death for burning dinner, sell our sons into slavery for disappointing us, watch gladiators fight to the death, cut the throats of animals to please Gods, nor do we kill ourselves at the drop of a hat to maintain honor.  You bring back genocide, you're bringing back a whole lot of that stuff too. And you're going to be promoting people to high rank and positions of great power simply because they are really good at Mexican drug cartel/ISIS levels of violence and terror. While that will likely happen to American in the near future, when it does we're the ones who will have to deal with that stuff and it wont be fun.

If there is a less extreme means of achieving success, I'm willing to give it a try. The issue isn't that those techniques don't work, they do, its that 90% of the US military tasked with doing it either wont (because they don't believe in it) or they don't understand it (because they're ignorant or idiots). Imagine a factory where the workers decide on their own that they wont be making a car how the bosses tell them to, how the machines are set up, because they are ideologically opposed to making cars that way. Does management let them do their own thing? Or do they fire their asses in a the most blatant manner possible to make an example to all the others, "YOU WILL FOLLOW ORDERS!"
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I never said the Romans did that in every case.  But when it was a tough nut to crack and there was no other path to victory, they did it.  Witness the third Punic War.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:34:48 PM EDT
[#5]
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Don't be a fucking pussy.
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That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
Don't be a fucking pussy.
I deployed twice to Iraq, and among other duties, worked with multiple Iraqi units, including serving as an advisor to an ISOF unit.  There, as with the other foreign units with which I worked or which I advised, I saw that was absolutely not the way to go.

How did it work when YOU did anything like that?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:48:02 PM EDT
[#6]
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You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. I spent 13 months in Iraq training and advising their military, like this stupid asshole was supposed to be doing.

Fortunately I received much better training than he did, and was actually successful at my mission. So much, in fact, that they shut down our unit a year after I left, because the Iraqis were able to operate with no need of further assistance.
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Security Forces?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:55:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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A Western Civ professor whose class I took said something along the lines of that the Romans prefered to assimilate non-Romans than actually fight them, as Rome had more to gain from it.
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That only works when the Romans were actively trying to conquer a land. Most times they weren't, they were totally happy with having the locals do everything as long as the locals paid their tribute. When they rebelled, they did bare minimum to end the rebellion to get coin flowing again. And that was much easier back then because small groups of rebels didn't have AKs, RPGs, and IEDs. Had the Spanish guerrillas (who took almost 200 years to finally quell) possessed force multipliers capable of fucking up Roman legions outside of pitched battles, then Spain would never had gone Roman.

Besides, times have changed. Culture has changed. We don't do genocide for the same reason we don't beat our wives to death for burning dinner, sell our sons into slavery for disappointing us, watch gladiators fight to the death, cut the throats of animals to please Gods, nor do we kill ourselves at the drop of a hat to maintain honor.  You bring back genocide, you're bringing back a whole lot of that stuff too. And you're going to be promoting people to high rank and positions of great power simply because they are really good at Mexican drug cartel/ISIS levels of violence and terror. While that will likely happen to American in the near future, when it does we're the ones who will have to deal with that stuff and it wont be fun.

If there is a less extreme means of achieving success, I'm willing to give it a try. The issue isn't that those techniques don't work, they do, its that 90% of the US military tasked with doing it either wont (because they don't believe in it) or they don't understand it (because they're ignorant or idiots). Imagine a factory where the workers decide on their own that they wont be making a car how the bosses tell them to, how the machines are set up, because they are ideologically opposed to making cars that way. Does management let them do their own thing? Or do they fire their asses in a the most blatant manner possible to make an example to all the others, "YOU WILL FOLLOW ORDERS!"
A Western Civ professor whose class I took said something along the lines of that the Romans prefered to assimilate non-Romans than actually fight them, as Rome had more to gain from it.
This was very true. They could be a cruel people and oppressive but when compared to most contemporary kingdoms and peoples were very just, fair, and extremely civilized.
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 6:59:20 PM EDT
[#8]
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So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Some are hopeless, but not all.

There are hopeless people here in the US.  What's your solution for them?
Link Posted: 8/17/2017 7:01:57 PM EDT
[#9]
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"People"
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
"People"
Yep, "people."  Acting like an asshole and treating people like they are all assholes does only one thing-- create more assholes.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:04:35 AM EDT
[#10]
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We only executed those Germans and Japanese who committed war crimes ee had evidence of. We weren't executing people during the occupation because it never called for it (and because no real insurgency existed).
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We only executed those Germans and Japanese who committed war crimes ee had evidence of. We weren't executing people during the occupation because it never called for it (and because no real insurgency existed).
FALSE. And, quite frankly a very naive understanding of WW2.

But the killing of SS prisoners had become routine at the time for some units. The 90th Infantry Division at the Saar "executed Waffen-SS prisoners in such a systematic manner late in December 1944 that headquarters had to issue express orders to take Waffen-SS soldiers alive so as to be able to obtain information from them".[7]
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:10:08 AM EDT
[#11]
West Point Battalion Commander "I want you to shoot" these German POWs.

US forces execute German Pows account from WW2




Prof Aldrich found several examples confirming what became an American policy in some parts of the Pacific theatre not to take prisoners of war.

He quotes the diaries of Charles Lindbergh, the American aviation pioneer, who toured the Far East visiting United States units. On one occasion he commented to a group of senior officers that very few Japanese seemed to be taken prisoner.
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"Oh, we could take more if we wanted to," one of the officers replied. "But our boys don't like to take prisoners.
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Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:14:09 AM EDT
[#12]
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It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies.
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"High context culture"  you must of just did course 15.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:21:57 AM EDT
[#13]
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Wow. That's why we lost the war, because we sucked at COIN?

NO, we lost the war because we couldn't kill the bad guys the we needed to because of the pussies back in this country. They lacked the balls to let us do what we needed because of feelings. It wasn't because of coin or any other reason, except them tying our hands behind our backs.

Tell me. What do you do in the air force.
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Seems to me that in an insurgency, if one side is not willing to execute the war to its fullest extent and do what's necessary, that side will lose. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:25:12 AM EDT
[#14]
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Seems to me that in an insurgency, if one side is not willing to execute the war to its fullest extent and do what's necessary, that side will lose. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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You can't win at COIN if you are are not actually doing COIN.

You can't go into a village and leave battle age males standing around after you leave.

They are not going to magically stop hating you by giving them candy.

The Romans, the Greeks, the Vikings, Huns, Chinese, Americans (de-Nazification), etc actually practiced it.

In WW2, if Americans took sniper fire from a village. They would level it with artillery.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:44:28 AM EDT
[#15]
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Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
What's your take on Jim Gant's work with Iraqi IP and his later work in Afghanistan?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 9:48:42 AM EDT
[#16]
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"High context culture"  you must of just did course 15.
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It's not about being "nice". It's about understanding how high context cultures work, and not alienating your allies. Chest thumping bullshit like that might motivate US troops, hence the admiring mouth breathers in this thread, but all it does in Iraq is create more enemies.
"High context culture"  you must of just did course 15.
I went to NCOA in 2006 and SNCOA in 2011. Believe it or not, AF PME is not the only place that talks about high and low context cultures. The training I received from AFSOC via JSOU was excellent.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:20:14 AM EDT
[#17]
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I went to NCOA in 2006 and SNCOA in 2011. Believe it or not, AF PME is not the only place that talks about high and low context cultures. The training I received from AFSOC via JSOU was excellent.
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Was it? Serious question with no sarcasm: do you really think any of our current coin strategy will work, no matter how well executed, in that region? In other words, if every us combatant implemented it exactly as your training indicated?

I do not think such strategies will work on a country-wide basis until Islam undergoes a reformation and until we admit and incorporate the idea into our strategy that widespread islamic terror is a direct result of islam and the culture it creates. Of course, since at times we have been instructed not to even use islam and terror in the same sentence, as if they were unrelated, this will not happen. Therefore, we will continue to lose, as we always will, when we fail to address the true center of gravity of the fight.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:35:10 AM EDT
[#18]
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Was it? Serious question with no sarcasm: do you really think any of our current coin strategy will work, no matter how well executed, in that region? In other words, if every us combatant implemented it exactly as your training indicated?

I do not think such strategies will work on a country-wide basis until Islam undergoes a reformation and until we admit and incorporate the idea into our strategy that widespread islamic terror is a direct result of islam and the culture it creates. Of course, since at times we have been instructed not to even use islam and terror in the same sentence, as if they were unrelated, this will not happen. Therefore, we will continue to lose, as we always will, when we fail to address the true center of gravity of the fight.
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I went to NCOA in 2006 and SNCOA in 2011. Believe it or not, AF PME is not the only place that talks about high and low context cultures. The training I received from AFSOC via JSOU was excellent.
Was it? Serious question with no sarcasm: do you really think any of our current coin strategy will work, no matter how well executed, in that region? In other words, if every us combatant implemented it exactly as your training indicated?

I do not think such strategies will work on a country-wide basis until Islam undergoes a reformation and until we admit and incorporate the idea into our strategy that widespread islamic terror is a direct result of islam and the culture it creates. Of course, since at times we have been instructed not to even use islam and terror in the same sentence, as if they were unrelated, this will not happen. Therefore, we will continue to lose, as we always will, when we fail to address the true center of gravity of the fight.
The key takeaway I got from the 45 days or so of training was this.  The centerpiece of COIN strategy is persistence.  If the populace thinks you will be gone in 5 years but the taliban/isis/Mahdi militia/whoever will still be there, then you will never get full buy in.  Because we are subject to the fickle American population and their elected leaders, we are constantly doing stupid shit like abandoning Iraq in 2011, which undermines our credibility and makes effective COIN impossible.

If we implemented COIN strategy fully at every level, from political to tactical, it would work.  It has worked before all over the globe. I don't think that Muslim ideology makes COIN impossible, just more difficult.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 10:46:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Edited ~ medicmandan
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:23:33 AM EDT
[#20]
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
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He's dealing with IQ of 80, in bred goat fuckers

It doesn't matter-outcome was predetermined centuries ago
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:28:36 AM EDT
[#21]
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You are full of excuses.

These fucking cave men need to take charge of their own fucking country.

It is the same in international business. Job site in a 3rd world country can't get anything done, until an American shows up to tell them what to do.

There is not one peaceful and prosperous nation on earth which is controlled by black or brown people.
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The key takeaway I got from the 45 days or so of training was this.  The centerpiece of COIN strategy is persistence.  If the populace thinks you will be gone in 5 years but the taliban/isis/Mahdi militia/whoever will still be there, then you will never get full buy in.  Because we are subject to the fickle American population and their elected leaders, we are constantly doing stupid shit like abandoning Iraq in 2011, which undermines our credibility and makes effective COIN impossible.

If we implemented COIN strategy fully at every level, from political to tactical, it would work.  It has worked before all over the globe. I don't think that Muslim ideology makes COIN impossible, just more difficult.
You are full of excuses.

These fucking cave men need to take charge of their own fucking country.

It is the same in international business. Job site in a 3rd world country can't get anything done, until an American shows up to tell them what to do.

There is not one peaceful and prosperous nation on earth which is controlled by black or brown people.
In for the shitstorm.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:36:38 AM EDT
[#22]
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You can't win at COIN if you are are not actually doing COIN.

You can't go into a village and leave battle age males standing around after you leave.

They are not going to magically stop hating you by giving them candy.

The Romans, the Greeks, the Vikings, Huns, Chinese, Americans (de-Nazification), etc actually practiced it.

In WW2, if Americans took sniper fire from a village. They would level it with artillery.
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Seems to me that in an insurgency, if one side is not willing to execute the war to its fullest extent and do what's necessary, that side will lose. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You can't win at COIN if you are are not actually doing COIN.

You can't go into a village and leave battle age males standing around after you leave.

They are not going to magically stop hating you by giving them candy.

The Romans, the Greeks, the Vikings, Huns, Chinese, Americans (de-Nazification), etc actually practiced it.

In WW2, if Americans took sniper fire from a village. They would level it with artillery.
First off, a warning. This reply is going to seem a bit dickish and it should, because now more then ever we need to squash this bullshit that only massacre ends insurgencies. I want this lesson to stick and to really set it I'm going to make this as painful as possible hoping the shock will get everyone reading to not base actual real life military strategy on a D-F grade history knowledge.  

I've dealt with Rome in this Thread, their genocidal reputation us largely the result of people repeating bullshit. Did they do it? Yes. Often? No. And mind you, paterfamilias also were allowed to murder or sell into slavery their own family members, every day was cause to kill an animal to appease a different God, at best they thought humors inside the blood controlled health, and their rebel opponents didn't have the force multiplier of modern weaponry at their disposal. These are people who thought the only way boys could learn anything was by having the teacher beat the shit out of them while they learned, and that girls didn't need education. They were dumb fucks, barely civilized, and made a shit ton of mistakes. Not supposed to be replicated.

Greeks? Name the date and local of the massacre to quell an insurgency. Mongols too. I'll be down to argue this. And whatever they did, placed in the historical context of dumb cruel people doing a ton of other dumb and cruel shit, it will make sense.

WWII...If the US Army took fire from a village anywhere in Continental Europe it meant GERMAN SOLDIERS were defending it. So they responded as such. They had loose restriction in terms of civilians caught up in fighting but they never actually targeted civilians. They didn't need to worry about MAM being insurgents because by the time we got into German terrain all German MAM had already been drafted into the military and were thus lawful combatants. In other words somebody did go into German villages and use a gun to round up everyone between 16-60, it was the SS. Also, contrary to what many suggest when they are promoting terror means to quell insurgencies, GIs and Marines actually went out of their way to show incredible mercy on German and Japanese civilians, especially compared to how their own govt treated them, which was a large reason why the occupation were so successful, the US running shit was actually a thousand times better than when Hitler or the Big Six ran shit.

Even Nazi Germany using the most brutal of COIN techniques of modern history still faced a major partisan resistance in nearly every occupied country that they never came close to stomping out. It got worse, not better, as time went on. So you're effectively trying to one up the goddamn SS while trying to get a different result they did. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again and expected different results? The SS were losers, they fucked the goat on everything they did in the war, we shouldn't be trying to replicate their techniques unless you somehow found the secret to success that eluded Himmler and the bunch. If your answer is "They didn't kill enough people" then you're too dumb to be allowed an opinion on this very serious discussion.  

Meanwhile in Iraq we're not at war with the Iraqi people, same with Afghanistan. Because we're "buddies" with the govt, we are only there to help the Iraqi (or A-Stan) govt out, help the people. Or mission is stability and peace (which is unfortunately a very difficult outcome and without any discernible strategy to get there is unlikely). We're like cops, we're not supposed to be at war with the people whose neighborhoods we patrol. In WWII, all German people were led by Hitler as he was the appointed leader of their nation state, still in control, which is how we could get away with burning down cities with firebombs, because the people were all Nazis too. Meanwhile, we've already conquered Iraq. We already replaced their nation state govt with one we wanted, now we just have to get the people on board too. Our goal is to get the people to stop fighting against the govt we like, not to depopulate the country like some fucked up understanding of what the Romans did to Epirus. Want to really look stupid? Iraq has 35 million people in it, at maximum the largest one time number of insurgents was something like 35,000 (this was reported by the ISAF/DOD during the height of the insurgency), these were divided between all insurgent factions and religions that were fighting coalition forces. It comes out to .1% of the population were insurgents. A whole whopping .1% of the population and you think arresting all MAMs is going to work?

And you aren't unique, lots of senior American brass were equally clueless in Iraq, especially early on in the war when nobody had bothered reading about COIN shit because its not as much fun as learning how to fight Russians. A whole lot of clueless US Army commanders did fucked up shit like when MGEN Ordierno ordered the 4th ID to round up and detain all MAM in entire Iraqi villages. It didn't quell the insurgency in his AO at all and the only true result was spoiling relationships by demonstrating to the populace that the US Army was as bad as all the propaganda said they were. Meanwhile since nearly everyone rounded up were entirely innocent, those "innocent" detainees were housed in detention centers run by Al Qaeda in Iraq and 1920s, who recruited them, trained them, and then everyone was released into the populace now as hardened and pissed off well trained, well organized insurgent cells, courtesy of ignorant ass officers who are supposed to know better. Ordierno eventually got his shit together and learned proper COIN technique but mistakes like his literally add years or more to the overall mission.

If your response to this is "We shouldn't have detained them, we should have killed them" then you need to go back to the .1% of population are insurgents and realize you are recommending killing 99% of innocent people. And that makes you worse than ISIS, because even they didn't do that. Not because they weren't strong enough, but because even they weren't that stupid.  

And this lesson is a thousand times more important to understand now then it was a few years ago because its going to stop being academic real quick. We're about a year out or less from the US being locked in a no-shit insurgency centric civil war. The current and future US federal and state govts are going to be fighting "domestic terrorists" on both sides and they will need to use COIN strategy and tactics to do it. If they start doing COIN like you're suggesting (and you're not unique, so they might) than they are going to lose the support of the populace to insurgents very early on who will become more powerful as a result. Instead of crushing resistance, the insurgent message will become emboldened, they will have an easier time finding recruits, getting funding, gaining vital intel support from snitches. Imagine you find out your brother was rounded up and permanently detained because somebody shot at a US govt convoy from within his town. Does this situation make you want to fight the govt? If you say no, you're either a giant pussy or a liar.

Those extreme measures you're suggesting are so absolutely damaging to quelling insurgencies that most ruthless insurgent groups will actually trigger attacks on govt forces hoping they will retaliate like the SS would because then afterwards the insurgent life in that sector just got a whole lot easier. If I was an insurgent I'd say half my operations would be geared to exploiting such idiocy, I'd design operations whose goal was an overreaction of the sort you are recommending. I'd do EVERYTHING in my power to see you murder or detain the most amount of people at one time and I'd sit back and laugh my ass off because you basically just shot yourself in the foot. You turn your own people against you, members of your own govt will turn, the international community will turn (and with that comes foreign funding in the billions to my cause).

I pray that if the Right are running the govt when this shit kicks off that none are stupid enough to do this because I'd like for them to win and crush the Left. And that if the Left is running shit in 2020 I hope they are that stupid, because it will make the insurgent of the Right more successful.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:39:59 AM EDT
[#23]
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What's your take on Jim Gant's work with Iraqi IP and his later work in Afghanistan?
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Yep.  Perfect example of how not to treat people.
So you would win their hearts and minds? Maybe build a few schools or fix some roads?

Yeah....we tried that too. They're fucking hopeless.
Shaming only works in cultures who produce people who work harder from shaming. We do because shaming as positive punishment is a long standing tradition in American culture because it was a long standing tradition in most (but not all) European cultures,  especially the Germanic ones.

Arabs aren't those people, shaming them has a strong potential of creating permanent enemies through a blatant insult. These are people who believe in blood feuds/vendettas to this day,  we know this since we know they are a backward tribal people practicing a culture designed in the fucking 7th century AD. So when we try to treat them like a snot nosed private from Ohio its not going to work. Expecting them to improve after that motivational speech is like expecting to fix your failing marriage by raping your wife.

Furthermore, its no wonder why the Iraqi Police especially were notoriously unreliable. Unlike the Iraqi Army the IPs were recruited from the area they were assigned too. That's where their family lived. Hint, THATS WHERE THE INSURGENTS KNEW THEIR FAMILY LIVED. Meanwhile US units rotated in and out ever 6-12 months and didnt give a fuck all about the town, the politics, or the reality of the situation. It was just a deployment they had to endure and survive for 6-12 months. For IPs, that was their home.

Besides that, half in uniform moonlit as insurgents themselves and not a small number of 1920s and other insurgent group cell leaders were senior IPs. Why weren't they enthusiastically hunting insurgents? Because half of them were insurgents. And the ones who werent wouldn't dime out the ones that were because then they and/or family die.

And not knowing this shit, that is why we suck at COIN because ignorant Americans who think every single person in the giant ball of dirt called Earth thinks like them. Read history to learn from it or you'll repeat it
What's your take on Jim Gant's work with Iraqi IP and his later work in Afghanistan?
I didn't read his book but I've followed his story. He gets it like few others have. If more "got it" then the wars would already be over.

The ONLY American officers who should be allowed to hold any commands at all that allow them to deal with the local populace should be those trying to replicate Lawrence of Arabia. If they are unwilling or unable, they need to be relieved ASAP and replaced by those who will, regardless of what happens to their career from a negative OER following their relief for cause. If they despise the populace and openly recommend genocide as the COIN TTP, they should be released from military service with an administrative discharge because they are too dangerous to be allowed even a loaded firearm. That's my opinion anyway...
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:43:13 AM EDT
[#24]
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The key takeaway I got from the 45 days or so of training was this.  The centerpiece of COIN strategy is persistence.  If the populace thinks you will be gone in 5 years but the taliban/isis/Mahdi militia/whoever will still be there, then you will never get full buy in.  Because we are subject to the fickle American population and their elected leaders, we are constantly doing stupid shit like abandoning Iraq in 2011, which undermines our credibility and makes effective COIN impossible.

If we implemented COIN strategy fully at every level, from political to tactical, it would work.  It has worked before all over the globe. I don't think that Muslim ideology makes COIN impossible, just more difficult.
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I went to NCOA in 2006 and SNCOA in 2011. Believe it or not, AF PME is not the only place that talks about high and low context cultures. The training I received from AFSOC via JSOU was excellent.
Was it? Serious question with no sarcasm: do you really think any of our current coin strategy will work, no matter how well executed, in that region? In other words, if every us combatant implemented it exactly as your training indicated?

I do not think such strategies will work on a country-wide basis until Islam undergoes a reformation and until we admit and incorporate the idea into our strategy that widespread islamic terror is a direct result of islam and the culture it creates. Of course, since at times we have been instructed not to even use islam and terror in the same sentence, as if they were unrelated, this will not happen. Therefore, we will continue to lose, as we always will, when we fail to address the true center of gravity of the fight.
The key takeaway I got from the 45 days or so of training was this.  The centerpiece of COIN strategy is persistence.  If the populace thinks you will be gone in 5 years but the taliban/isis/Mahdi militia/whoever will still be there, then you will never get full buy in.  Because we are subject to the fickle American population and their elected leaders, we are constantly doing stupid shit like abandoning Iraq in 2011, which undermines our credibility and makes effective COIN impossible.

If we implemented COIN strategy fully at every level, from political to tactical, it would work.  It has worked before all over the globe. I don't think that Muslim ideology makes COIN impossible, just more difficult.
Exactly.

And one of the reasons that the Afghanistan Surge was a fuck up from day 1 was that it came with a troop withdrawal stipulation attached. "We sending more Soldiers and Marines to fight you! But only for a few years, we'll be done by 2011!" What type of message does that send to the Taliban? We've already reneged on that time table but the damage of it will always be felt, that error by Obama probably cost us the war.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:44:08 AM EDT
[#25]
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He's dealing with IQ of 80, in bred goat fuckers

It doesn't matter-outcome was predetermined centuries ago
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I might be smarter than you. Will our relationship improve if I call you names for 20 minutes?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:46:22 AM EDT
[#26]
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Some are hopeless, but not all.

There are hopeless people here in the US.  What's your solution for them?
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Let them fucking starve.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:50:38 AM EDT
[#27]
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You are full of excuses.

These fucking cave men need to take charge of their own fucking country.

It is the same in international business. Job site in a 3rd world country can't get anything done, until an American shows up to tell them what to do.

There is not one peaceful and prosperous nation on earth which is controlled by black or brown people.
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Show me one peaceful and prosperous white nation in history.

Up until WWII, American and European nation states that were predominately white constantly warred with one another, its why they are all so good at war, because they "practice" on each other. It only stopped because any future wars would be nuclear and none were willing to go down that path. Europe is peaceful because their people are placated by giant welfare states. In the US, they want that welfare state too, but the Right is fighting it because if we don't we become slaves to whomever controls the welfare. And we're about to fight American Civil War 2.0 over this so I hope you aren't including us in that description of peaceful and prosperous. Canada? Socialist too.

If you actually knew your history and tried to play the white man better than brown man shit you'd realize that you accidentally just condoned socialism. Nice job, Che!

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing, have seen their territory invaded by a new kind of slave: the Portuguese."

"The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving, which has pursued him as far as this corner of America and drives him to advance himself, even independently of his own individual aspirations."

"The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each, bringing our total to 479 for me and 163 1/2 to Alberto."

"The first person we hit on was the mayor, someone called Cohen; we had heard a lot about him, that he was Jewish as far as money was concerned but a good sort."

"Mexicans are a band of illiterate Indians"
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:56:30 AM EDT
[#28]
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Meanwhile in Iraq we're not at war with the Iraqi people, same with Afghanistan.
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Your whole opinion is based off this incorrect assumption.

Who is to say we aren't at war with them? They surely don't like us.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:57:55 AM EDT
[#29]
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We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
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That video is a perfect example of why we suck ass at COIN, and how we lost the war there.
We lost the war there? Huh. News to me.
Relax, we were always going to lose with the strategies available to us. Now, if the military were going in like Julius Caesar to conquer and subdue, it would have worked. But Julius didn't have television cameras following him.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 11:58:56 AM EDT
[#30]
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Show me one peaceful and prosperous white nation in history.

Up until WWII, American and European nation states that were predominately white constantly warred with one another, its why they are all so good at war, because they "practice" on each other. It only stopped because any future wars would be nuclear and none were willing to go down that path. Europe is peaceful because their people are placated by giant welfare states. In the US, they want that welfare state too, but the Right is fighting it because if we don't we become slaves to whomever controls the welfare. And we're about to fight American Civil War 2.0 over this so I hope you aren't including us in that description of peaceful and prosperous. Canada? Socialist too.

If you actually knew your history and tried to play the white man better than brown man shit you'd realize that you accidentally just condoned socialism. Nice job, Che!

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing, have seen their territory invaded by a new kind of slave: the Portuguese."

"The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving, which has pursued him as far as this corner of America and drives him to advance himself, even independently of his own individual aspirations."

"The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each, bringing our total to 479 for me and 163 1/2 to Alberto."

"The first person we hit on was the mayor, someone called Cohen; we had heard a lot about him, that he was Jewish as far as money was concerned but a good sort."

"Mexicans are a band of illiterate Indians"
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There isn't any hope for you.  You have listened to too much management propaganda and power points.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:02:03 PM EDT
[#31]
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There isn't any hope for you.  You have listened to too much management propaganda and power points.
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Show me one peaceful and prosperous white nation in history.

Up until WWII, American and European nation states that were predominately white constantly warred with one another, its why they are all so good at war, because they "practice" on each other. It only stopped because any future wars would be nuclear and none were willing to go down that path. Europe is peaceful because their people are placated by giant welfare states. In the US, they want that welfare state too, but the Right is fighting it because if we don't we become slaves to whomever controls the welfare. And we're about to fight American Civil War 2.0 over this so I hope you aren't including us in that description of peaceful and prosperous. Canada? Socialist too.

If you actually knew your history and tried to play the white man better than brown man shit you'd realize that you accidentally just condoned socialism. Nice job, Che!

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing, have seen their territory invaded by a new kind of slave: the Portuguese."

"The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving, which has pursued him as far as this corner of America and drives him to advance himself, even independently of his own individual aspirations."

"The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each, bringing our total to 479 for me and 163 1/2 to Alberto."

"The first person we hit on was the mayor, someone called Cohen; we had heard a lot about him, that he was Jewish as far as money was concerned but a good sort."

"Mexicans are a band of illiterate Indians"
There isn't any hope for you.  You have listened to too much management propaganda and power points.
Yeah, if only I was as enlightened about the benefits of socialism as you were.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:06:18 PM EDT
[#32]
The average IQ in Iraq is 87.

I seriously doubt that a tongue lashing is going to change that.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:06:22 PM EDT
[#33]
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I might be smarter than you. Will our relationship improve if I call you names for 20 minutes?
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What if I'm a backwards  yoke who thinks you are an infidel who is in
League with the joos and responsible for my country's ( in as much as I have a concept of my country outside my tribe/religious sect ) poor condition (because I'm surely not the fault) and the only reason I'm interacting with you is to get some free shit.
In fact, I would prefer to see you murdered and I'll passively aggressively work towards that ?

But overall, I don't think we should fix other countries . Nation building etc?
No.
If necessary? Destroy their shit, install puppet dictator loyal to us
Wash and repeat as necessary.

But preferably ? We should
Have been Switzerland from day one as intended
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:16:11 PM EDT
[#34]
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Your whole opinion is based off this incorrect assumption.

Who is to say we aren't at war with them? They surely don't like us.
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Meanwhile in Iraq we're not at war with the Iraqi people, same with Afghanistan.
Your whole opinion is based off this incorrect assumption.

Who is to say we aren't at war with them? They surely don't like us.
Incorrect assumption? Why? Because you don't know what "nation state" and "non state actor" means? Not my fault you don't read books.

"Surely don't like us?" We're talking about war, an extension of politics through violence, and you're talking about liking people? The US is occupying a nation whose current govt WE INSTALLED, which is being challenged by an insurgency making up well under 1% of the population, the only thing we should be focused on is getting the people to not want to kill us or their govt and then we can get the fuck out of THEIR country. We're cops trying to impose peace in a neighborhood full of people who hate each other and hate us. Cops don't stop crime by murdering the populace because they're brown. If they did, they probably shouldn't be cops.

The perfect example of what I'm talking about is this back and forth between you and I. I just wrote some disparaging words about you, I called you ignorant and a supporter of socialism (which even if you don't actively support them you still do it tacitly). Do you want to be friends with me? Or are you now thinking "That Steinhab is a son of a bitch race traitor and I hate him"? Could I have handled it more diplomatically that would have accomplished more effective results in the long run? Yep. That's how COIN works. Instead of creating an enemy I could have used a slightly different approach and made you an ally. I chose not to, to make a point to other readers of arfcom, and because I don't have to worry about you killing me. And because your statement was the very sort of ignorant ass racist that always should be ridiculed no matter where it comes from.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:25:20 PM EDT
[#35]
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What if I'm a backwards  yoke who thinks you are an infidel who is in
League with the joos and responsible for my country's ( in as much as I have a concept of my country outside my tribe/religious sect ) poor condition (because I'm surely not the fault) and the only reason I'm interacting with you is to get some free shit.
In fact, I would prefer to see you murdered and I'll passively aggressively work towards that ?

But overall, I don't think we should fix other countries . Nation building etc?
No.
If necessary? Destroy their shit, install puppet dictator loyal to us
Wash and repeat as necessary.

But preferably ? We should
Have been Switzerland from day one as intended
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If you're that ignorant in real life can I bully you and get away with it with zero consequences? Do ignorant people react well when you berate them in public? Do they NEVER retaliate when you treat them like shit? Is that what history taught you? That if stupid ignorant people get put in their place like bitches through verbal insults then they will never fight back?  

Is it passive aggressive to only kill/capture the people you've identified as bad guys instead of losing the support of your allies because some dumb fuck with zero understanding of a foreign culture is trying to replicate a Vince Lombardi speech?

In Iraq we did install puppet dictator, his name was Maliki and he represented the 75% percentile of the nation's ethnicity. And we supported him by trying to quell the Sunni insurgency while also quelling the Shi'a religious insurgency that Iran was supporting. And by not being murderous assholes and realizing that we can gain allies by not calling them dumb fucks and cowards and assholes to their faces, the Sunnis and the Shia all came around to our side, allowing Obama to throw away that hard earned victory in the matter of a year by abandoning our puppet dictator, which caused the rise of ISIS.

So by your logic, should we invade, buttfuck the populace and take out their national govt, install a puppet, leave ASAP before puppet has consolidated power, and then repeat once every 3-4 years when our puppet falters and collapses and the enemy take over again?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:37:44 PM EDT
[#36]
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The average IQ in Iraq is 87.

I seriously doubt that a tongue lashing is going to change that.
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You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:37:52 PM EDT
[#37]
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If you're that ignorant in real life can I bully you and get away with it with zero consequences? Do ignorant people react well when you berate them in public? Do they NEVER retaliate when you treat them like shit? Is that what history taught you? That if stupid ignorant people get put in their place like bitches through verbal insults then they will never fight back?  

Is it passive aggressive to only kill/capture the people you've identified as bad guys instead of losing the support of your allies because some dumb fuck with zero understanding of a foreign culture is trying to replicate a Vince Lombardi speech?

In Iraq we did install puppet dictator, his name was Maliki and he represented the 75% percentile of the nation's ethnicity. And we supported him by trying to quell the Sunni insurgency while also quelling the Shi'a religious insurgency that Iran was supporting. And by not being murderous assholes and realizing that we can gain allies by not calling them dumb fucks and cowards and assholes to their faces, the Sunnis and the Shia all came around to our side, allowing Obama to throw away that hard earned victory in the matter of a year by abandoning our puppet dictator, which caused the rise of ISIS.

So by your logic, should we invade, buttfuck the populace and take out their national govt, install a puppet, leave ASAP before puppet has consolidated power, and then repeat once every 3-4 years when our puppet falters and collapses and the enemy take over again?
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No.  An
Arab Pinochet is what I'm thinking
Brutal oppression of the idiot people and Isis. Worked for the Ottoman Empire. They ruled those stupid savages for centuries

But I'm saying we never should have been going  to any of those places

Day one of the republic
Switzerland as intended
We went off the rails early
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 12:57:42 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:


You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
View Quote
@steinhab

I think that because that is in fact their average measured IQ.


Look it up.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:01:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
View Quote
Your post is self contradictory. You admit on the one hand that they will murder their own children in the name of islam for getting raped, yet think that if we talk the right way these very same people can create a stable self governing republic, without addressing the root cause of their problems, which is islamic culture. The tail follows the horse.

You arent getting anywhere without addressing the elephant in the room that you and chairborne are either pretending isnt there, or ignoring because the powerpoint slide says you cant go there.

This isnt about whether the sergeants approach is going to work better than yours...there is no evidence either will work for long.

Your approach may work, while you are there, with constant effort, and as soon as you leave it will be as if you never existed. It will always be so until the islamic culture changes.

The United States obliterated national socialism in germany, to the point that as you well know it is illegal to even give a nazi salute in that country. Followed a similar strategy in Japan. We completely changed the ethos of those nations by targeting the root cause of their belligerancy. THAT is real COIN.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:05:20 PM EDT
[#40]
That speech probably made the Sgt feel good.  Not sure how much good it did.  I dont remember "fuck you you're all liars" in any leadership education I've gone through.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:05:20 PM EDT
[#41]
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Your post is self contradictory. You admit on the one hand that they will murder their own children in the name of islam for getting raped, yet think that if we talk the right way these very same people can create a stable self governing republic, without addressing the root cause of their problems, which is islamic culture. The tail follows the horse.

You arent getting anywhere without addressing the elephant in the room that you and chairborne are either pretending isnt there, or ignoring because the powerpoint slide says you cant go there.

This isnt about whether the sergeants approach is going to work better than yours...there is no evidence either will work for long.

Your approach may work, while you are there, with constant effort, and as soon as you leave it will be as if you never existed. It will always be so until the islamic culture changes.

The United States obliterated national socialism in germany, to the point that as you well know it is illegal to even give a nazi salute in that country. Followed a similar strategy in Japan. We completely changed the ethos of those nations by targeting the root cause of their belligerancy. THAT is real COIN.
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You think that because you aren't educated about their culture. Humans are humans. If you berate them they react negatively. Especially when they come from a culture that literally specifies that they retaliate against people who insult them. Every day in arfcom we have discussions where we acknowledge that the Muslim and Arab culture is outmoded, based off 7th Cent AD ideals. Right? What do you think we're talking about?  

THEY WILL MURDER THEIR OWN FUCKING KIDS FOR GETTING RAPED JUST TO PRESERVE THEIR FAMILY HONOR

Get it? I pray you do because ignorance is not an excuse for failure.

Take a large group of armed Iraqi Police (already with questionable loyalties to your cause and side) and call them names. You shouldn't need a PhD in Cultural Anthropology or Sociology to understand what is going to happen afterwards. Gather a large group of them together just to call them assholes and cowards then they will remember that shit and then they will act on vengeance. I'm an American and in a time of war if someone on my own side treated me that way I'd be very very happy to see them dead. If I was an Iraqi, I just might work to have that done by my own hand.

That some of you just don't get this, what appears to be such a simple and basic "golden rule" of "treat other people how you would like to be treated", its truly flabbergasting and frustrating. And yet the same people are making fun of other people's intelligence...
Your post is self contradictory. You admit on the one hand that they will murder their own children in the name of islam for getting raped, yet think that if we talk the right way these very same people can create a stable self governing republic, without addressing the root cause of their problems, which is islamic culture. The tail follows the horse.

You arent getting anywhere without addressing the elephant in the room that you and chairborne are either pretending isnt there, or ignoring because the powerpoint slide says you cant go there.

This isnt about whether the sergeants approach is going to work better than yours...there is no evidence either will work for long.

Your approach may work, while you are there, with constant effort, and as soon as you leave it will be as if you never existed. It will always be so until the islamic culture changes.

The United States obliterated national socialism in germany, to the point that as you well know it is illegal to even give a nazi salute in that country. Followed a similar strategy in Japan. We completely changed the ethos of those nations by targeting the root cause of their belligerancy. THAT is real COIN.
Absolutely nothing that happened in Germany or Japan had a fucking thing to do with COIN. We defeated their uniformed standing armies, and crushed their national will.  We didn't have to fight insurgencies in either country.  If you don't even know what the acronym COIN means, better not to comment on your expertise with it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:07:58 PM EDT
[#42]
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First off, a warning. This reply is going to seem a bit dickish and it should, because now more then ever we need to squash this bullshit that only massacre ends insurgencies. I want this lesson to stick and to really set it I'm going to make this as painful as possible hoping the shock will get everyone reading to not base actual real life military strategy on a D-F grade history knowledge.  

I've dealt with Rome in this Thread, their genocidal reputation us largely the result of people repeating bullshit. Did they do it? Yes. Often? No. And mind you, paterfamilias also were allowed to murder or sell into slavery their own family members, every day was cause to kill an animal to appease a different God, at best they thought humors inside the blood controlled health, and their rebel opponents didn't have the force multiplier of modern weaponry at their disposal. These are people who thought the only way boys could learn anything was by having the teacher beat the shit out of them while they learned, and that girls didn't need education. They were dumb fucks, barely civilized, and made a shit ton of mistakes. Not supposed to be replicated.

Greeks? Name the date and local of the massacre to quell an insurgency. Mongols too. I'll be down to argue this. And whatever they did, placed in the historical context of dumb cruel people doing a ton of other dumb and cruel shit, it will make sense.

WWII...If the US Army took fire from a village anywhere in Continental Europe it meant GERMAN SOLDIERS were defending it. So they responded as such. They had loose restriction in terms of civilians caught up in fighting but they never actually targeted civilians. They didn't need to worry about MAM being insurgents because by the time we got into German terrain all German MAM had already been drafted into the military and were thus lawful combatants. In other words somebody did go into German villages and use a gun to round up everyone between 16-60, it was the SS. Also, contrary to what many suggest when they are promoting terror means to quell insurgencies, GIs and Marines actually went out of their way to show incredible mercy on German and Japanese civilians, especially compared to how their own govt treated them, which was a large reason why the occupation were so successful, the US running shit was actually a thousand times better than when Hitler or the Big Six ran shit.

Even Nazi Germany using the most brutal of COIN techniques of modern history still faced a major partisan resistance in nearly every occupied country that they never came close to stomping out. It got worse, not better, as time went on. So you're effectively trying to one up the goddamn SS while trying to get a different result they did. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again and expected different results? The SS were losers, they fucked the goat on everything they did in the war, we shouldn't be trying to replicate their techniques unless you somehow found the secret to success that eluded Himmler and the bunch. If your answer is "They didn't kill enough people" then you're too dumb to be allowed an opinion on this very serious discussion.  

Meanwhile in Iraq we're not at war with the Iraqi people, same with Afghanistan. Because we're "buddies" with the govt, we are only there to help the Iraqi (or A-Stan) govt out, help the people. Or mission is stability and peace (which is unfortunately a very difficult outcome and without any discernible strategy to get there is unlikely). We're like cops, we're not supposed to be at war with the people whose neighborhoods we patrol. In WWII, all German people were led by Hitler as he was the appointed leader of their nation state, still in control, which is how we could get away with burning down cities with firebombs, because the people were all Nazis too. Meanwhile, we've already conquered Iraq. We already replaced their nation state govt with one we wanted, now we just have to get the people on board too. Our goal is to get the people to stop fighting against the govt we like, not to depopulate the country like some fucked up understanding of what the Romans did to Epirus. Want to really look stupid? Iraq has 35 million people in it, at maximum the largest one time number of insurgents was something like 35,000 (this was reported by the ISAF/DOD during the height of the insurgency), these were divided between all insurgent factions and religions that were fighting coalition forces. It comes out to .1% of the population were insurgents. A whole whopping .1% of the population and you think arresting all MAMs is going to work?

And you aren't unique, lots of senior American brass were equally clueless in Iraq, especially early on in the war when nobody had bothered reading about COIN shit because its not as much fun as learning how to fight Russians. A whole lot of clueless US Army commanders did fucked up shit like when MGEN Ordierno ordered the 4th ID to round up and detain all MAM in entire Iraqi villages. It didn't quell the insurgency in his AO at all and the only true result was spoiling relationships by demonstrating to the populace that the US Army was as bad as all the propaganda said they were. Meanwhile since nearly everyone rounded up were entirely innocent, those "innocent" detainees were housed in detention centers run by Al Qaeda in Iraq and 1920s, who recruited them, trained them, and then everyone was released into the populace now as hardened and pissed off well trained, well organized insurgent cells, courtesy of ignorant ass officers who are supposed to know better. Ordierno eventually got his shit together and learned proper COIN technique but mistakes like his literally add years or more to the overall mission.

If your response to this is "We shouldn't have detained them, we should have killed them" then you need to go back to the .1% of population are insurgents and realize you are recommending killing 99% of innocent people. And that makes you worse than ISIS, because even they didn't do that. Not because they weren't strong enough, but because even they weren't that stupid.  

And this lesson is a thousand times more important to understand now then it was a few years ago because its going to stop being academic real quick. We're about a year out or less from the US being locked in a no-shit insurgency centric civil war. The current and future US federal and state govts are going to be fighting "domestic terrorists" on both sides and they will need to use COIN strategy and tactics to do it. If they start doing COIN like you're suggesting (and you're not unique, so they might) than they are going to lose the support of the populace to insurgents very early on who will become more powerful as a result. Instead of crushing resistance, the insurgent message will become emboldened, they will have an easier time finding recruits, getting funding, gaining vital intel support from snitches. Imagine you find out your brother was rounded up and permanently detained because somebody shot at a US govt convoy from within his town. Does this situation make you want to fight the govt? If you say no, you're either a giant pussy or a liar.

Those extreme measures you're suggesting are so absolutely damaging to quelling insurgencies that most ruthless insurgent groups will actually trigger attacks on govt forces hoping they will retaliate like the SS would because then afterwards the insurgent life in that sector just got a whole lot easier. If I was an insurgent I'd say half my operations would be geared to exploiting such idiocy, I'd design operations whose goal was an overreaction of the sort you are recommending. I'd do EVERYTHING in my power to see you murder or detain the most amount of people at one time and I'd sit back and laugh my ass off because you basically just shot yourself in the foot. You turn your own people against you, members of your own govt will turn, the international community will turn (and with that comes foreign funding in the billions to my cause).

I pray that if the Right are running the govt when this shit kicks off that none are stupid enough to do this because I'd like for them to win and crush the Left. And that if the Left is running shit in 2020 I hope they are that stupid, because it will make the insurgent of the Right more successful.
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You may be surprised thst I agree with this post completely. I think it is the perfect argument for why we should not attempt nation building or occupying middle eastern countries.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:08:40 PM EDT
[#43]
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West Point Battalion Commander "I want you to shoot" these German POWs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD4bDHTHdpU

http://i.imgur.com/rdG5hya.png
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That contradicts every first hand account I've ever read about the Pacific ground fighting.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:11:33 PM EDT
[#44]
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No.  An
Arab Pinochet is what I'm thinking
Brutal oppression of the idiot people and Isis. Worked for the Ottoman Empire. They ruled those stupid savages for centuries

But I'm saying we never should have been going  to any of those places

Day one of the republic
Switzerland as intended
We went off the rails early
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An Arab Pinochet? Okay, name him. Who should it have been? If your expert enough to lecture on foreign policy and military strategies I can only guess that you how a person in mind. So tell me who should have been in charge.

We ousted Saddam, good or bad? Don't matter, we did it. We could either say fuck you to Iraq and bounce despite the coming anarchy or we could stick around and try to fix it, Powell's Pottery Barn Theory, "You break it, you own it." That's the approach we took under the understanding if we don't finish what we started, replacing enemy national govt with friendly, we'll just end up having to go back and replicate the invasion, which is terribly expensive, politically costly too.

We wanted a democratically elected parliamentary govt that was devoid of Ba'athist, which means no shitty Sunni Saddam stooges (which means none of his generals are playing Pinochet, they were all Saddam lackies and kissed his ass for decades). We needed someone who the majority of the Iraqi populace would support and unfortunately that meant that someone would need to come from the Dawa Party. I'm sure you have no fucking clue what I'm talking about now but the Dawa was a group of Shi'a politicians who had challenged Saddam early on and most went into exile or were imprisoned and tortured (with many executed). They were loved by the majority ethnic group of Iraq (Shi'a Arabs) but most were Iranian agents too (where most had sought safety after exile). Maliki was one of them and had enough clout with Iran but didn't appear to be a complete stooge for Iran. Bush selected him and gave him the stripes after the previous chooses turned out to be major fucking disasters because the Pinochet we selected turned out to be a fucking joke (Chalabi).

After we invaded the Iraqi govt has no real military because we abolished it. Their police force is incapable of quelling the rising Sunni and Shia insurgency (from incompetence or treachery). Our forces were DESPERATE to hand over complete control to the Iraqi govt so we can get the fuck out of Dodge. But we couldn't, because they weren't ready yet for self governance. So we teamed up American units with Iraqi ones to help them, to show them how to do the job, to help them quell violence and instability. That's the commander's intent. Gain stability for the region, assist the Iraqi military and police, to ensure a smooth transition of power to the Iraqi govt and people. Where the fuck does genocide fit in to this?

And at what point does berating Arabs work, done in a manner that is familiar to American boys in the military who are usually copying their high school football coaches (surely nobody else, even a shift manager at fucking McDonalds wouldn't EVER talk to their employees that way). Never, the answer is always never. Its NEVER okay to speak to Arabs that way, they will murder their own kids out of honor. Hell, that shit doesn't work even with fucking football players and privates. The difference is that an American will only key your car for being an asshole, the Iraqis follow a level of honor bullshit that basically forces them to turn on you violently. By treating them like shit they are morally obligated, according to their culture, to try to kill you. If they don't, they are looked down upon by their own people. They are fucked up people for NOT killing you after you insult their honor.

Now shit like this will likely make you come to terms with not wanting to play with those people then, "fuck 'em." But the answer to that is "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." American geopolitics, especially our policies in the Middle East, means we will have to deal with that shit and our military will have to deploy to those sorts of countries. We have to fight insurgencies and we can't try to recreate a fucked up historical inaccurate template of "Mongol invasion" as our playbook.

Which is why my opinion is that we should ruthless cull the officer corps of every single individual who can't understand the realities of the COIN situation. If they don't get it, we shouldn't try to patiently explain it to people who don't want to learn it. We need to relieve their asses and have them working at McDonalds ASAP, because they simply cannot be allowed to exercise any level of power or responsibility while being as ignorant as they are. That we don't do this, that we relieved incompetents left and right in WWII who didn't get that conflict, who couldn't wrap their minds around modern warfare, but we wont relieve the most senior brass (instead we promote them to Chief of Staff of the Army, like Casey), is why we fuck up COIN wars. We reward failure, we reward incompetence.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:12:51 PM EDT
[#45]
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No.  An
Arab Pinochet is what I'm thinking
Brutal oppression of the idiot people and Isis. Worked for the Ottoman Empire. They ruled those stupid savages for centuries
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I'm not an ally of steinhab, but he did already cover that. Berate one of them, shoot him in the head in front of the others, specific terror for general attitude adjustment. General insults ineffective, burning down one village so the rest obey effective. Pretty clear to me and in line with my knowledge of the cultural history going back to the Assyrians.

Now try doing that with television cameras pointed at you being watched by 300 million soft headed Americans.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:13:43 PM EDT
[#46]
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@steinhab

I think that because that is in fact their average measured IQ.

Look it up.
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Stupid people act stupidly when they get called stupid. I don't need to take an IQ test to know that if I insult a stupid person and call that stupid person a coward, I made an enemy to life. Especially when they come from cultures that basically guarantees it. They kill their own kids out of honor, what do you think is going to happen when you call them cowards? What did it accomplish? I guarantee it didn't accomplish what that dumb fuck MP NCO thought it would.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:14:23 PM EDT
[#47]
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A Western Civ professor whose class I took said something along the lines of that the Romans prefered to assimilate non-Romans than actually fight them, as Rome had more to gain from it.
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That only works when the Romans were actively trying to conquer a land. Most times they weren't, they were totally happy with having the locals do everything as long as the locals paid their tribute. When they rebelled, they did bare minimum to end the rebellion to get coin flowing again. And that was much easier back then because small groups of rebels didn't have AKs, RPGs, and IEDs. Had the Spanish guerrillas (who took almost 200 years to finally quell) possessed force multipliers capable of fucking up Roman legions outside of pitched battles, then Spain would never had gone Roman.

Besides, times have changed. Culture has changed. We don't do genocide for the same reason we don't beat our wives to death for burning dinner, sell our sons into slavery for disappointing us, watch gladiators fight to the death, cut the throats of animals to please Gods, nor do we kill ourselves at the drop of a hat to maintain honor.  You bring back genocide, you're bringing back a whole lot of that stuff too. And you're going to be promoting people to high rank and positions of great power simply because they are really good at Mexican drug cartel/ISIS levels of violence and terror. While that will likely happen to American in the near future, when it does we're the ones who will have to deal with that stuff and it wont be fun.

If there is a less extreme means of achieving success, I'm willing to give it a try. The issue isn't that those techniques don't work, they do, its that 90% of the US military tasked with doing it either wont (because they don't believe in it) or they don't understand it (because they're ignorant or idiots). Imagine a factory where the workers decide on their own that they wont be making a car how the bosses tell them to, how the machines are set up, because they are ideologically opposed to making cars that way. Does management let them do their own thing? Or do they fire their asses in a the most blatant manner possible to make an example to all the others, "YOU WILL FOLLOW ORDERS!"
A Western Civ professor whose class I took said something along the lines of that the Romans prefered to assimilate non-Romans than actually fight them, as Rome had more to gain from it.
Very true. You can't tax dead bodies.
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:31:14 PM EDT
[#48]
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Your post is self contradictory. You admit on the one hand that they will murder their own children in the name of islam for getting raped, yet think that if we talk the right way these very same people can create a stable self governing republic, without addressing the root cause of their problems, which is islamic culture. The tail follows the horse.

You arent getting anywhere without addressing the elephant in the room that you and chairborne are either pretending isnt there, or ignoring because the powerpoint slide says you cant go there.

This isnt about whether the sergeants approach is going to work better than yours...there is no evidence either will work for long.

Your approach may work, while you are there, with constant effort, and as soon as you leave it will be as if you never existed. It will always be so until the islamic culture changes.

The United States obliterated national socialism in germany, to the point that as you well know it is illegal to even give a nazi salute in that country. Followed a similar strategy in Japan. We completely changed the ethos of those nations by targeting the root cause of their belligerancy. THAT is real COIN.
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There was no insurgency in either Germany and Japan so there was no real COIN to counter the insurgency. You getting lesson on COIN from non-COIN wars is the exact reason you are having issues understanding this. Nazi Germany and Japan both did COIN against occupied countries during the war and both did the shit all of you are suggesting, terror, and they all fucking failed miserably because like you they didn't get the "golden rule."

How are you incapable of understanding this? How are you not understanding that you're comparing a nation state total war battle to an insurgency representing .1% of the population? If you wanted to compare the two, what we did to Germany and Japan was more akin to what happened in the first three weeks to Saddam's Iraq. It didn't take us years, it took three fucking weeks to do to Iraq what we did to Germany and Japan, overthrow their national govt and put them in chains.

The problem was the Iraqi people were geared up already to start an insurgency because it was what Saddam had prepared for (he knew he couldn't resist so he planned to disrupt the occupation). The only reason that shit didn't happen with the Nazis with their Werwolf plan was because all the head Nazis that would have carried it out either blew their brains out or ran off to South America or were killed/captured, and the low level SS didn't do shit because they pussed out. The Iraqis and Afghans didn't puss out, they fought the occupation (largely because the loser govt that were ousted fled to neighboring countries and ran the insurgencies from Syria and Pakistan). But our war isn't against the people because non-state actor insurgent groups don't represent the people, especially when all of them, including the ones who fucking hate each other worse than us, represent .1% of the population.

Look at America right fucking now. We are incapable of making a Republic work. We are incapable of making democracy work. We're about to go balls deep in our own insurgency, it actually already started just hasn't gotten huge yet. Before you start talking shit about other cultures being unable to form cohesive and just govt you better take a really hard look at the US and what the fuck is happening here. You better look at how the ONLY thing keeping Europeans from killing one another is a welfare state and nukes. If you refuse to address it, you're either lying or ignorant. Furthermore, the same shit you are saying about Arabs all the Europeans said it about the US when we tried discarding monarchy for Republics. And it looks like maybe they were right, maybe all American need the firm boot of a dictator on their neck to know how to live. Fun part is you and me and everyone else are going to find out what that feels like real soon. Let's see who is talking shit after that starts...
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:31:19 PM EDT
[#49]
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Absolutely nothing that happened in Germany or Japan had a fucking thing to do with COIN. We defeated their uniformed standing armies, and crushed their national will.  We didn't have to fight insurgencies in either country.  If you don't even know what the acronym COIN means, better not to comment on your expertise with it.
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Youre almost there: why didnt we have to fight insurgencies there?
Link Posted: 8/20/2017 1:35:16 PM EDT
[#50]
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You may be surprised thst I agree with this post completely. I think it is the perfect argument for why we should not attempt nation building or occupying middle eastern countries.
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Then stay home and remain silent. Because its going to happen because sometimes we are forced to do things which suck. Look at WWII, you think that shit was fun? Losing tens of thousands of troops a month and incurring the debt? Fuck no, it sucked, but we did it and endured it because we had to. Just like we have to be able to occupy a country without murdering the populace because its easier than learning about their culture and not treating them like shit.
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