Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 2/14/2001 10:36:59 AM EDT
Ok, here we go...I picked up my babysitter/housekeeper tonight..and decided to go say hello to her mother (who is a friend of mine).
Her mom works at a Cigarette's Cheaper store in town...we are sitting around talking, Ash(babysitter) holding Ed(baby) and me right across from her, and Mom at the counter...store is empty except for us, very close to closing time.
A car pulls up right out front..this store BTW is sandwiched between two others that were already closed for the evening...and the whole storefront is glass....
this car has it's lights on...and like 15sec after it pulls up...I see this little red LASER DOT moving up and down my shirt...a touch too close to my heart and other vital parts...
What is going through my mind?...Well, I was wondering who I had pissed off badly enough that they would want to shoot me, in public, in the presence of my child. Honestly....
So, I tell Ash to keep Ed down, pick up my fanny pack, and just bold as brass (and probably stupidly too)walked to the front door getting ready to draw my weapon, or hit the deck. When I get to the door, I see Matt-hole, Ash's brother, Chris' son, our ex-employee sitting in the passenger seat, laughing his ass off at me...
His response...I was just playing around, WTF is your problem...
My response...You should know better than to point a laser at ANYONE...and especially someone who you KNOW carries a firearm at all time...and who isn't afraid to use it.
I also did my best sailor impersonation...I would guess I said 'f*ck' about 15 times before I got out the door. Yelling at this kid about how dumb he was, and how lucky...etc.
When I got into my truck, I was shaking like a leaf...it is not often that I feel a 'real' threat...and this was one...but the kid is 17 yrs old...
I guess what I am wanting to know is...did I do the right thing? What would you have done? And, would I have been w/i my legal rights if I had drawn and/or fired my weapon?
Ok, I guess I am done for now, TIA for any feedback...Bratty
ps..I did call him mother later and apologize for yelling and cursing at her kid...she said that she yelled at him too...LOLOLOL

I copied this and pasted it from another board I post on...for those of you on both of them...sorry you had to read it twice...

This happened on 2-11...and I couldn't get my pw or temp pw to work until today, sorry to post old news...but I am actually looking for input...LE and civilian...TIA  

Link Posted: 2/14/2001 10:45:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 10:45:29 AM EDT
It's good to see that you had the balls to take action against someone who you thought was going to shoot you. But then again, it might not have been too smart of a thing to do if this was real. You probably would have got your ass blown away.

Anyway, I think you did ok. The kid DEFIATELY learned his lesson (hopefully).
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 11:29:02 AM EDT
Unfortunatly, he hasn't learned his lesson...he thinks it is a big fat joke...[pissed]....quite infuriating...

And how could I kick his ass in front of his mother??? (and step-dad, and sister)....that kid will mess w/ the wrong 'cowboy' some day, and end up perforated...

pardon my crappy spelling[%|]
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 12:47:34 PM EDT
Well, shooting would certainly have been completely unjustified.  But to be honest, I could see myself possibly pulling my weapon in that situation...  Heck, people get shot all the time for no reason at all.

Regardless, you are right--he is one stupid f*cker!
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 1:28:47 PM EDT
Sounds like he's a candidate for some future Darwin awards.  I had some teenage punks lase the windshield of my marked sheriff's cruiser as I was passing them one rainy night.  Did a U in the middle of the road and then put them all prone lit up with brights, takedown lights and strobes till I found a keychain and not a gun.
I didn't draw my weapon but to tell the truth I felt more "assaulted" than when I've been verbally threatened or had impact weapons brandished at me. A well conducted dressing down by you was well in order.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 1:33:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 1:41:19 PM EDT
I don't think you should have walked to the door, as described, without your weapon drawn. If it had been a real situation, your dead! Also, I think having it drawn, but not used, would have been a better lesson for the idiot.
Finally, you should have kicked his a$$ anyway. One question....what does being a minor have to do with it?? A 16 year old can make you just as dead as a 21 year old.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 2:06:49 PM EDT
Amen to that walking to the door part
[xx(]...though I do feel that I walked to the door more out of maternal instinct (ie..draw attention away from Baby Ed)...also, I had NO cover to speak of...I was sitting at a plastic picnic type table, about 4ft in front of me and to the right was a cardboard display thing, and about 20ft in front and right was the counter...made of laminated OSB...not too many options.

The things between me and the threat were...a plate glass window (made to stop small caliber projectiles), and the windshield of the car they were in. I carry a G26, which would have been totally ineffective if they had 'bigger guns'. I almost had to go to the door...

How does one learn to keep protecting their child from harm, while still protecting themselves? Is there a way to seperate these things in one's mind? A training course or something?

Oh, and BTW...the reasons that I didn't hit the kid are as follows...1. half his family standing right there, 2. prefer not to have assault and battery on a minor charge, 3. prolly wouldn't do a dern bit of good anyway. Some people are just punks...and will have to learn the hard way.

I figure, one of these days, a LEO will pull him over for any number of reasons (he drives like poop, not to mention he can't see worth a poop and refuses to wear glasses...glasses aren't 'cool' you know)...and if said LEO looks hard enough...will find something to take him in on....heh heh heh...[}:D]

One more question for LE out there...is this something I should at least report to the PD? It happened in city limits...I did not call 911 but, I also did not draw my weapon...any advice would be appreciated...CH
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 2:09:54 PM EDT
Oh, and the other thing I should have done and did not was have Chris(the kids mother, who's store we were all in) call 911...thank God I got a 'next time' out of this...CH
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 2:40:40 PM EDT
To start with, after safely exiting the building WITH my laser sighted glock 45 drawn, irregardless of what relative I was sitting with, this kid may have just snapped and I'm in a very bad situation, (see how he like's having a laser with a gun attached pointed at him) and if this is the case he's dead meat(recall Kip Kinkle who killed both his parents before going to his school) and after finding that there was no weapon AND holstering my weapon (important, otherwise next step is robbery) I would have CALMLY walked out to him and asked to see his laser.
Then with it firmly in hand, although wanting to shove it hard and deep, I would have smashed it on the deck. Especially when it is someone you are familiar with and that should know better. Then, is a good time for the "I could have shot you" lecture. Although I think you'd be looking pretty poorly before a grand jury if you had since the prevelance of those lasers is so great and no actual weapon was seen.  [spank]
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 2:57:48 PM EDT
I think a lot of people are just so unfamiliar with guns that they don't really realize that lasers are a sighting system. Best thing to do is probably break the laser in half, then explain why, going into "lasers are a sighting system for a gun. Don't point a laser at anything you wouldn't point a gun at, because a lot of people are going to think you ARE pointing a gun at them, and they're going to react accordingly." Breaking the laser makes sure they remember.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 6:40:40 PM EDT
Back room or alternate exit to the building?  If so, that's where I would head and ask the others to go to - for damn sure, my kid's in the back room/out of the building.  If there's no rear exit, I'm staying in the back room and if the car is still there, whoever opens the door next will have my sights on them, center of mass.  I would be as far back as possible since distance is a practiced shooter's friend.  I practice strong and weak hand shooting so I would make the most of the cover/concealment available regardless of my position.  I there was no back room or exit other than the front door, then after I shat my self, I would have moved, hoping the laser didn't follow.  If the laser follows, what to do?  Tough one. Draw and advance is all I can think of.  ?????? Definitely call police asap and be **SURE** to tell them you have a weapon and describe yourself.


Never been in a gunfight - and I'd like to keep it that way!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 8:11:34 PM EDT
Its easy for people to say you did this and that wrong, but your experience proves one thing.

You will never wrong what to do or how you will react until you are put in a compromising position/situation.

Chalk this up to a learning experience. Evaluate your actions at the time. Think about what you could have done better.

Perhaps walking up to a potential killer is not the smartest thing to do, but how many people would have jumped for cover, drawn their weapon, and yelled at the guy to come out? I appauld you for having the guts to do what you did.

Its hard for me to criticize you and your actions because like I said, one never knows until one is put into that situation.
Well that and the fact that youre a really hot chick.[:P]

Link Posted: 2/14/2001 8:38:13 PM EDT
Well, Bratty, having been on both sides of the
"aftermath" of a fatal shooting (in a forensic manner of speaking), here's how it would have played out. The prosecutor would have told the jury, "why, didn't she realize that all the kids these days have these laser pointers and like to play pranks. She must be some milita gun crazy paranoid psycho to shoot an innocent boy."

Your defense attorney would have said "hey, people, hello, wake up, middle of the night, just before closing, laser light comes on your chest, you ever watch TV or read the papers? Shame it happened, but the kid was an Oxygen Thief, and that's the way it goes." What would the jury say? Depends on where you live. I would acquit you.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 8:54:08 PM EDT
Well braty, a few things:  first, glad you are okay.  second, don't get so aggressive next time.  

No flames hear my dear but, you obviously thought you and others were in harms way........I sure know I would have, so you should have sought immediate cover and been prepared with weapon drawn.  

Next, any number of scenarios could have played out.  First and foremost was to protect the folks with you and then yourself.  For all possible outcomes you'd just have to work through each the best you could.

It would have been very unfortunate had the guys in the car been intent on serious bodily harm and drawn on you and fired before you completed your charge towards them.

I understand though.  My truck alarm went off once at 3:00 am.  At the time my only weapon in the house was not accessible so I launched myself downstairs and outside in my skivvies armed only with adrenaline and a very large Spyderco knife.

I am lucky it was an electronic mf instead of a couple of better armed theives.

Again, glad you're okay and BTW, I'd find a way to kick the shit outta that kid one way or another.

Link Posted: 2/14/2001 11:15:18 PM EDT
Lots of good advice for you from above.  I'll give you a little for the future since this kid will probably do it again since he thinks it was so cute.

Contact someone who knows the local laws, LEO or lawyer type, and find out if it is illegal to "laser" someone.  It counts as disorderly conduct where I'm from.  Then let his mother know its coming so she can have a bit of a lever next time she tries to explain his stupidity to him.  And finally, when he does it again, be safe and act defensively.  Don't assume that he still only has his pointer, after all maybe he took offense at the language you threw his direction last time.  And then follow up with a call to the police, maybe they can get his attention....

Good luck.         [>]:)]

Link Posted: 2/15/2001 3:15:15 AM EDT
First, Glad to hear that you and lil' Ed are ok.
Next (not knowing your distance from LEO assistance) I would reccomend Dialing 911 as you and loved ones are taking cover.
He would not have thought it so funny sitting handcuffed in the backseat of a Patrol car.

And if it had been someone with a real weapon, you would have been shot as soon as you walked towards the front of the store.
I say this because it happened to a Co-worker back in 1985.
He was shot through the front door into the chest when the clerk in the other store looked over and saw him walking back.
He bled to death lying on the pavement before he could be med-evac-ed.

2 stores were being held up at the same time.
He chased the 1 bad guy out of the store only to be shot by the other in the adjacent store.
Perp #1 was apparently unarmed or only had a knife.
We were both GI's at the time and 21.
(Invincible?, Not even close!)
I went with him back home for a Proper Burial close to his family. I was Honor guard at the time.

Oh and FWIW after years of FBI manhunts and trials the shooter got off on a technicality. (sp)
FBI was involved because we were GOVT. Property.
Federal Crime.

Link Posted: 2/15/2001 6:52:36 PM EDT
As a LEO and not an attorney I can't give advice except for the following. I'm also not from AZ and I don't know the applicable state law related to defense of property or person(s). The last thing you want to do is to fire a weapon and injure or kill someone. Even if you were justified you may end up financially ruined defending yourself. Injuring or killing an innocent bystander could also get you a prison sentence. You always have to keep that in mind but you can't let it keep you from taking action if you have to.

I have not been personally laser targeted  but a fellow officer was and it was taken seriously. The subject was not caught so it was never determined whether it was just a prank or a serious threat against the officer.

From a tactical standpoint I think you realize what you did wrong. In any situation where you feel you are in danger or being targeted take any cover that is available to you and call 911. Make sure that 911 informs the responding officers that you are armed and where your position is.

Make yourself as small a target as possible. Even a paper box is better then no cover at all. There have been many incidents when a subject did not fire on someone behind some flimsy cover where the rounds would have easily passed through.

There are many books on survival tactics that are available but I would see if they have any practical training courses available in your area. One of things you can do is to always make a mental picture of every situation you're in. Play what if games in your head. Always look for cover, exits etc.  If something goes down you'll be mentally prepared to handle it.

All in all I think you did OK.  No one was injured and you learned something from the experience.

BTW, I'm looking for a location to retire in. Is the Flagstaff area a good place? It has to be class III friendly. TIA
Link Posted: 2/15/2001 11:44:40 PM EDT
Well, I hate to criticize you, because had I been in your shoes I would have been furious as well, but if you had actually been facing some killr with a laser-sight equipped pistol, you would have been killed deader than a canned mackeral before you ever got out of the store.  What in the world possessed you to want to draw your weapon and advance on somebody with a laser sight?  Even if the guy had just been some crazy kid screwing around, as soon as he saw your pistol, he probably would have fired to save his own life.  Don't be crazy.  If somebody "paints" you with a laser, first GET OUT OF THE KILL ZONE, and THEN consider what to do next.  I definately would not choose running out the front door all pissed off with a pistol.  That sounds like a quick trip to the ER or the morgue. But I do understand why you were angry, who wouldn't be?
Link Posted: 2/16/2001 8:51:29 AM EDT
Just wanted to say...thanks for reading, thanks for the advice...now, I am better preparing myself if ever (God forbid) I have a 'next time'...

I have left a message w/ my CCW instructor...I figure he can help me w/ some methods on 'how to think it through'...and legally at that...

I am already working on weapon AND phone...[:D]

Thanks again...xoxo, Carree
spelling still sucks...ACK!!
Link Posted: 2/16/2001 3:18:07 PM EDT

BTW, I'm looking for a location to retire in. Is the Flagstaff area a good place? It has to be class III friendly. I am a pro 2nd amendment LEO who believes in the peoples right to own firearms. After all I was a people before I was a LEO and I'll be a people again in a couple of years. TIA

Link Posted: 2/16/2001 7:22:08 PM EDT
Bratty. Remember this. Even though I would have acquited you on the criminal charges, and hopefully a rational jury would also, you have to budget for the defense of the wrongful death civil suit. Recall a case 10 or 15 years ago in  Cali where an off duty cop was held up at knife point, dropped his wallet, came up a .38 from his ankle holster, smoked the skell, and got hit with an obscene lalaland jury verdict.
However, don't let the thought of the aftermath slow you down..like the old saw goes, "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". As for the civil side, if things go wrong, there's always chapter 7 bankruptcy. What assets you have at the time you file are, of course, strictly up to you [:D] Stay safe.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.

By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top