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Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:53:10 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I guess there is some concern that the Greeks will thrown in with the Soviets, er "The Russian Hegemony" out of desperation
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Guns versus Butter... it can be a good thing.  It will cause Russia to move more capital over to the butter side of the equation to keep Greece prompt up.  This is just a repeat of the cold war era where the Soviet Union over-committed on propping up the economies of the satellite states.

What's going on here is that the core of what makes communism, well communistic has not changed.  It's just that Russia and China have learned and replied their principals differently. They no longer capture nations into satellite states because it's too costly as it drags down both guns and butter heavily.  Instead, they have lowered their costs simply by spreading weapons to bad states, knowing that we will spend far more to fix the problem.

This we have overcommitted capital on the guns side of the equation which has become exhausted.  It also drags down our butter side when we spend billions on nation building, which is our way of saying that we prop up the economies of these states.  

Sounds like the shoe is on the other foot, right?  It's because it is and our leaders in Washington are too stupid to see this, plan and act accordingly.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:58:16 AM EDT
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Quoted:


For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?

A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.
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Quoted:
More throwing good money after bad.


For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?

A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.


And the cost of the moral hazard created by the giveaways?

Plenty of other EU countries are watching.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:01:04 AM EDT
Other than tourism, what does Greece produce?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:16:53 AM EDT
I gotta hand it to Greece.

Though they have no redeeming qualities and have a distinct lack of competence, they have made their problems everybody else's problems.

And to top it off, Greece is bending Germany to their will, not the other way around.





You couldn't write stranger fiction.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:17:42 AM EDT
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Quoted:


Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"

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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the stock market recovers today, it will be because of the rumors of a settlement of the Greek crisis.

Above all, the stock market hates uncertainty. A resolution one way or the other would be good for the market.


You continue to demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.



Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"



Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:17:50 AM EDT
Did anyone really think they would get the boot?  They're going to do anything to keep this thing together.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:23:09 AM EDT
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Quoted:


Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the stock market recovers today, it will be because of the rumors of a settlement of the Greek crisis.

Above all, the stock market hates uncertainty. A resolution one way or the other would be good for the market.


You continue to demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.



Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"




Ill paraphrase ....

The greeks are fucked up because they arent doing socialism right .

Some filthy american taught economist fucked errything up.

Now the filthy capitalist right wingers of the EU are being big meanies.

If the greeks couod just print unlimited money ( i like money....) , we would have a working utopia to jizz our collectivist

shorts over .

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:30:11 AM EDT

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Quoted:


Other than tourism, what does Greece produce?
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Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:41:36 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I guess there is some concern that the Greeks will thrown in with the Soviets, er "The Russian Hegemony" out of desperation
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Just as some people, perhaps some countries are destined to be shining examples of what not to do for the rest of us.

I say let them dangle from put-pute's sack for a while.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:46:39 AM EDT
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Quoted:
More throwing good money after bad.
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FPNI.

At BEST all those step do is delay, presumably until a major inflation cycle begins.  Inflation could be used to resolve national debt problems, but won't since the politicians will just continue the same policies at the new inflated values of money.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:52:24 AM EDT
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Quoted:

I don't think it's all about Greece .  But I do believe that it is seen as the nudge that sets other marginal countries on the same path .

Spain , Italy , Portugal and some others I'm sure are keeping a close eye on how Greece gets out of this trap .  With the thought of using the same escape route if Greece is successful in dodging the creditors .


This could all be a case of " we ain't seen nothing yet ".


gd
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I think that's the reality and everyone is afraid to even publicly speak in those terms.  This is tip-of-iceberg material that's going on.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:56:07 AM EDT
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Quoted:


Be careful what you wish for. A post-collapse Europe would mean a patchwork of countries ruled by Communist and Nazi dictatorships, spoiling to go to war with one another. France would be ruled by the National Front, Britain by the UKIP, etc. And the dominant power in all this would be Vladimir Putin's Russia. Is this the "rebuilding" you want?
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Quoted:
Yep. The sooner it collapses then the sooner everything can be rebuilt.


Be careful what you wish for. A post-collapse Europe would mean a patchwork of countries ruled by Communist and Nazi dictatorships, spoiling to go to war with one another. France would be ruled by the National Front, Britain by the UKIP, etc. And the dominant power in all this would be Vladimir Putin's Russia. Is this the "rebuilding" you want?


Let me guess. You're in your early 20's.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU has always been there and it's the single thread holding back the hordes.  It's simply not so, nor was it ever.  The EU is an attempt by massively disparate nation states to emulate the republican model of the USA, effectively turning Europe into an economically integrated super-state.  Think about what the EU really did: It made travel and international trade within the EU similar to the US (with some very big, very important, and completely damning exceptions as there are no interstate tariffs in the US) and a single currency.  That's it.  Really, it's the Articles of Confederation 800 years too late.  Had the USA not been a by and large homogenous population from about 1750 through 1800, we'd not have made it either.

The EU could end tomorrow and there'd be no war.  There would be a short term major downturn in Europe's economy which would ripple into a recession globally.  It would be temporary.  Countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy which have spent profligately will likely endure some very hard times and experience hyper inflation.  People who bet on (loaned to) those countries will take it in the nuts, but the world will continue to turn.

The chicken little act is tiresome.

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:11:49 PM EDT
Let me guess. You're in your early 20's.
View Quote


You're wrong there. I'm 70.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU has always been there and it's the single thread holding back the hordes. It's simply not so, nor was it ever. The EU is an attempt by massively disparate nation states to emulate the republican model of the USA, effectively turning Europe into an economically integrated super-state. Think about what the EU really did: It made travel and international trade within the EU similar to the US (with some very big, very important, and completely damning exceptions as there are no interstate tariffs in the US) and a single currency. That's it. Really, it's the Articles of Confederation 800 years too late. Had the USA not been a by and large homogenous population from about 1750 through 1800, we'd not have made it either.

The EU could end tomorrow and there'd be no war. There would be a short term major downturn in Europe's economy which would ripple into a recession globally. It would be temporary. Countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy which have spent profligately will likely endure some very hard times and experience hyper inflation. People who bet on (loaned to) those countries will take it in the nuts, but the world will continue to turn.

The chicken little act is tiresome.
View Quote


I'm not a fan of the EU. Your analysis of the birth of the EU is largely correct.

However, the EU exists. If it breaks up, there would be serious geopolitical repercussions. Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:14:30 PM EDT
Just sell Acropolis etc to rap stars
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:18:38 PM EDT
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Quoted:


You're wrong there. I'm 70.



Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?
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Quoted:
Let me guess. You're in your early 20's.


You're wrong there. I'm 70.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU has always been there and it's the single thread holding back the hordes. It's simply not so, nor was it ever. The EU is an attempt by massively disparate nation states to emulate the republican model of the USA, effectively turning Europe into an economically integrated super-state. Think about what the EU really did: It made travel and international trade within the EU similar to the US (with some very big, very important, and completely damning exceptions as there are no interstate tariffs in the US) and a single currency. That's it. Really, it's the Articles of Confederation 800 years too late. Had the USA not been a by and large homogenous population from about 1750 through 1800, we'd not have made it either.

The EU could end tomorrow and there'd be no war. There would be a short term major downturn in Europe's economy which would ripple into a recession globally. It would be temporary. Countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy which have spent profligately will likely endure some very hard times and experience hyper inflation. People who bet on (loaned to) those countries will take it in the nuts, but the world will continue to turn.

The chicken little act is tiresome.


Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?


I'd be ok with that.  


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:20:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:


You're wrong there. I'm 70.



I'm not a fan of the EU. Your analysis of the birth of the EU is largely correct.

However, the EU exists. If it breaks up, there would be serious geopolitical repercussions. Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Let me guess. You're in your early 20's.


You're wrong there. I'm 70.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU has always been there and it's the single thread holding back the hordes. It's simply not so, nor was it ever. The EU is an attempt by massively disparate nation states to emulate the republican model of the USA, effectively turning Europe into an economically integrated super-state. Think about what the EU really did: It made travel and international trade within the EU similar to the US (with some very big, very important, and completely damning exceptions as there are no interstate tariffs in the US) and a single currency. That's it. Really, it's the Articles of Confederation 800 years too late. Had the USA not been a by and large homogenous population from about 1750 through 1800, we'd not have made it either.

The EU could end tomorrow and there'd be no war. There would be a short term major downturn in Europe's economy which would ripple into a recession globally. It would be temporary. Countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy which have spent profligately will likely endure some very hard times and experience hyper inflation. People who bet on (loaned to) those countries will take it in the nuts, but the world will continue to turn.

The chicken little act is tiresome.


I'm not a fan of the EU. Your analysis of the birth of the EU is largely correct.

However, the EU exists. If it breaks up, there would be serious geopolitical repercussions. Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?


French national front and UKIP only exist as a push back to eu. if eu goes away then so do they
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:21:17 PM EDT
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Quoted: Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?
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And all of this is based on the same deep, well reasoned thoughts that allow someone with 70 years of watching Marxism fail and kill people to still think it's a great idea....

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:22:25 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Other than tourism, what does Greece produce?
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Parasites.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:32:22 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the stock market recovers today, it will be because of the rumors of a settlement of the Greek crisis.

Above all, the stock market hates uncertainty. A resolution one way or the other would be good for the market.


You continue to demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.



Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .
I have yet to detect any excuses to coddle Greek pride.

Those that do not hear what their ignorance claims to be reality only transform that ignorance to stupidity by their childish mini rants.

To borrow a line from Firefly, Richard Burgi to Jayne Cobb substituting attitude for hat:
"That attitude makes you look like an idiot"



Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:32:47 PM EDT
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Quoted:
What get me is the people of this country do not want to submit to any austerity measures to save their own ass.  Just what the hell can they be thinking.  Would they prefer complete insolvency and starvation.

They have fucked the dog and lived off the tit to long and the tit is dry.

Own up and work your way out of it.
View Quote

Our country is the same way.

If I had $1 for every time I've heard "as long I get MY social security".... etc etc.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:34:03 PM EDT
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Quoted:




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Quoted:
Quoted:
Alexander A has been offering some of the best analysis of the Greek situation even better than the financial web sites that claim to be the know all and I as well as many others am delighted by his objectivity .







They must have know each other from DU
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:34:36 PM EDT
double post.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:36:06 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Our country is the same way.

If I had $1 for every time I've heard "as long I get MY social security".... etc etc.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What get me is the people of this country do not want to submit to any austerity measures to save their own ass.  Just what the hell can they be thinking.  Would they prefer complete insolvency and starvation.

They have fucked the dog and lived off the tit to long and the tit is dry.

Own up and work your way out of it.

Our country is the same way.

If I had $1 for every time I've heard "as long I get MY social security".... etc etc.


It's very prevelent on ARFcom.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:36:59 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Be careful what you wish for. A post-collapse Europe would mean a patchwork of countries ruled by Communist and Nazi dictatorships, spoiling to go to war with one another. France would be ruled by the National Front, Britain by the UKIP, etc. And the dominant power in all this would be Vladimir Putin's Russia. Is this the "rebuilding" you want?
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Quoted:
Yep. The sooner it collapses then the sooner everything can be rebuilt.


Be careful what you wish for. A post-collapse Europe would mean a patchwork of countries ruled by Communist and Nazi dictatorships, spoiling to go to war with one another. France would be ruled by the National Front, Britain by the UKIP, etc. And the dominant power in all this would be Vladimir Putin's Russia. Is this the "rebuilding" you want?


You clearly do not understand how this works.

What we "want" and what is inevitable are not always things we control.

Further, Greece leaving the euro doesn't mean they leave the EU.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:39:46 PM EDT
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Quoted:


It's very prevelent on ARFcom.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What get me is the people of this country do not want to submit to any austerity measures to save their own ass.  Just what the hell can they be thinking.  Would they prefer complete insolvency and starvation.

They have fucked the dog and lived off the tit to long and the tit is dry.

Own up and work your way out of it.

Our country is the same way.

If I had $1 for every time I've heard "as long I get MY social security".... etc etc.


It's very prevelent on ARFcom.


I'd give up every penny I've paid in, if it meant abolishing SS and SSD.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 1:29:30 PM EDT
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Quoted:


You're wrong there. I'm 70.



I'm not a fan of the EU. Your analysis of the birth of the EU is largely correct.

However, the EU exists. If it breaks up, there would be serious geopolitical repercussions. Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?
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Quoted:
Let me guess. You're in your early 20's.


You're wrong there. I'm 70.

You seem to be under the impression that the EU has always been there and it's the single thread holding back the hordes. It's simply not so, nor was it ever. The EU is an attempt by massively disparate nation states to emulate the republican model of the USA, effectively turning Europe into an economically integrated super-state. Think about what the EU really did: It made travel and international trade within the EU similar to the US (with some very big, very important, and completely damning exceptions as there are no interstate tariffs in the US) and a single currency. That's it. Really, it's the Articles of Confederation 800 years too late. Had the USA not been a by and large homogenous population from about 1750 through 1800, we'd not have made it either.

The EU could end tomorrow and there'd be no war. There would be a short term major downturn in Europe's economy which would ripple into a recession globally. It would be temporary. Countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Italy which have spent profligately will likely endure some very hard times and experience hyper inflation. People who bet on (loaned to) those countries will take it in the nuts, but the world will continue to turn.

The chicken little act is tiresome.


I'm not a fan of the EU. Your analysis of the birth of the EU is largely correct.

However, the EU exists. If it breaks up, there would be serious geopolitical repercussions. Certainly, Russia would be calling the shots in eastern Europe. If current EU countries were on their own, and under adverse economic conditions, various extremist movements would take over. Is there doubt that the National Front would rule in France, for example?


Then you should know history better.  Who was in control of eastern Europe the day before the first EU vote? Oh yeah...it wasn't Russia.  Why was that, again? Oh yeah...

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 2:42:36 PM EDT
Latest: The Eurogroup teleconference has just broken up, with a negative decision regarding Greece's request to continue the ESM (European Stability Mechanism) support for two more years.

A new Eurogroup meeting (either in person or by teleconference) has been scheduled for tomorrow, to consider further proposals from the Greek side.

The Juncker 4-point plan is still on the table.

The president of the Greek parliament, Zoe Konstantopoulou, has ruled that there is no constitutional way to recall Sunday's referendum. Angela Merkel also has said that there cannot be an agreement on a third support program until after the referendum has been completed.

There is now tremendous pressure for Greek citizens to vote "yes" in the referendum (meaning that they would accept the lenders' demands and undercut Tsipras' position). Right now, there is a large pro-"yes" rally (20,000 people) underway in front of the Greek parliament building.

http://www.parapolitika.gr/article/305154/megaleiodis-sygkentrosi-toy-menoyme-eyropi-fotovideo    (includes pictures and video)

A large "yes" vote would probably lead Tsipras to resign and call new elections. He admitted as much in an interview on the public TV channel ERT last night.

New elections would "freeze" negotiations for a month, deepening the crisis.

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 3:41:17 PM EDT
A new Eurogroup meeting (either in person or by teleconference) has been scheduled for tomorrow, to consider further proposals from the Greek side.
View Quote


Update: The head of the Eurogroup (the Dutch finance minister) has announced that no further Eurogroup meetings will be held until after the Greek referendum.

This is not a good development.

It appears the Europeans have lost patience. Regardless of the referendum vote, it appears that Greece is on its way out of the euro currency.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 3:44:14 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Update: The head of the Eurogroup (the Dutch finance minister) has announced that no further Eurogroup meetings will be held until after the Greek referendum.

This is not a good development.

It appears the Europeans have lost patience. Regardless of the referendum vote, it appears that Greece is on its way out of the euro currency.
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Quoted:
A new Eurogroup meeting (either in person or by teleconference) has been scheduled for tomorrow, to consider further proposals from the Greek side.


Update: The head of the Eurogroup (the Dutch finance minister) has announced that no further Eurogroup meetings will be held until after the Greek referendum.

This is not a good development.

It appears the Europeans have lost patience. Regardless of the referendum vote, it appears that Greece is on its way out of the euro currency.


It won't help the Euro or the EU. It certainly won't help the Greeks.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 3:51:05 PM EDT

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Quoted:
For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?



A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.

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Quoted:



More throwing good money after bad.




For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?



A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.





 
Your little socialist paradise has spent themselves into a hole they can't get out of, and are battling against everyone who tries to help them.  They're out of other people's money, and like a little child who's parents are broke, can't understand why they're not getting a shit ton of new toys for Christmas and are going to throw a tantrum because of it.




I've got some news for you, Greek's failing won't cost me personally anything.  Not a single, fucking, thing.  This is an EU problem, they created it, it's up to them to deal with it.  And throwing more money at it won't fix it, it will just kick the can down the road another year or two.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 3:54:05 PM EDT
I am good with socialists starving in the street.  If for no other purpose than as an example to the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 3:55:22 PM EDT
You know damn well they will get bailed out again and nothing will happen.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:08:19 PM EDT

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Quoted:


You know damn well they will get bailed out again and nothing will happen.
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Yes, something will happen.  The problem will be back in a year or two, and it will be worse every time it comes back.  And other EU nations will start joining the Greeks.  And eventually, there will be no more source of money.  So instead of one nation failing, it will be a half a dozen or more.  Sooner or later the Germans will have to stop or they'll be in no better shape than Greece.  




Oh yes, something assuredly will happen, and the longer it's put off, the uglier it will be.




And in the meantime, America follows the same road.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:12:33 PM EDT
Quoted:
Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, appears to have suggested the following 4-point program to resolve the impasse between Greece and its international lenders:

1. Greece would accept the package of tax and budgetary measures proposed by the lenders last Friday, with some minor modifications such as lowering the proposed VAT on hotels from 23% to 13%. Indeed, the Greek government would withdraw Sunday's referendum on this, or campaign for a "yes" vote.

2. Greek pensions and salaries would not be reduced. (This would not preclude raising the retirement age to 67, for new retirees.)

3. Measures would be taken to make the Greek debt more viable, such as extending maturity dates or lowering the interest rates.

4. The EU would provide a "Marshall Plan" for Greek development, up to 30 billion euros.

Tsipras appears to be open to this, and has been in communication with Juncker.
View Quote


Not seeing how this solves any of the actual problems.  Sounds like it's just kicking the can down the road.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:14:27 PM EDT
I've got some news for you, Greek's failing won't cost me personally anything. Not a single, fucking, thing.
View Quote


You're taking a shortsighted view of your own interests. If you have investments in the stock market (even indirectly though an IRA, 401(k), or pension plan), you're going to take a hit if Greece goes belly up. All the markets are internationally interconnected.

There's also the geopolitical view. A failed Greece weakens NATO's southern flank. And what happens if they throw in their lot with Putin's Russia? You want to see America weakened in this way?

In my case, I actually stand to profit if Greece goes to a devalued drachma. I could then sweep in and buy property at a steep discount. And I have my eye on exactly the properties I would buy.

But I am more worried about the larger impacts.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:14:57 PM EDT
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I am good with socialists starving in the street.  If for no other purpose than as an example to the rest of the world.
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+1


As long as the rest of the world UNDERSTANDS why Greece went down the shitter  . . .



CMOS
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:15:20 PM EDT
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But I am more worried about the larger impacts.
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Those impacts are going to be felt. Either now or later.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:20:40 PM EDT
Not seeing how this solves any of the actual problems. Sounds like it's just kicking the can down the road.
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If given the choice between death now and death later, I would prefer death later.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:22:32 PM EDT
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If given the choice between death now and death later, I would prefer death later.
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Not seeing how this solves any of the actual problems. Sounds like it's just kicking the can down the road.


If given the choice between death now and death later, I would prefer death later.


Well sure, except this isn't death. This is paying the price for socialism. It's not the end of Greece. It's the end of this style of society in Greece.

Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:25:20 PM EDT
I am good with socialists starving in the street.
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Let me ask you one question:  Do you call yourself a Christian?

(And I might add that the people starving in the street in Greece are not the ones responsible for this mess.)
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:27:57 PM EDT
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For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?

A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.
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More throwing good money after bad.


For those saying this, ask yourselves -- what would be the cost to the world of a breakup of the European Union?

A partial answer is given in the reaction of the worldwide stock markets.


When the Euro was created in 1999 it drove up energy prices & inflation here.
Fuck them, let them fail.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:34:16 PM EDT
Bill Gates needs to buy Greece and make everyone Microsoft employees.

It would become the most profitable socialist country in history!
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:36:15 PM EDT
Well sure, except this isn't death. This is paying the price for socialism. It's not the end of Greece. It's the end of this style of society in Greece.
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It's clear that you know absolutely nothing about Greece. Greek society has been the way it is since time immemorial.

I could teach a seminar about this, but why bother? If people, such as the ones in this forum, insist on seeing everything through a conservative ideological prism, they're going to be blind to everything that doesn't fit their preselected worldview.

At least I'm able to hold my personal ideology at arm's length, and look at the actual facts.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:43:22 PM EDT
When the Euro was created in 1999 it drove up energy prices & inflation here.
Fuck them, let them fail.
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The euro was a bad idea. A lot of people admit that now.

Whether the euro is good or bad isn't the question. The question is, what do we do now that we are here?

We are dealing with the factual situation, not the hypothetical.

Whatever is done must minimize the damage, or we will all pay the price.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:50:36 PM EDT
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More throwing good money after bad.
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This..
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:52:50 PM EDT

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Let me ask you one question:  Do you call yourself a Christian?



(And I might add that the people starving in the street in Greece are not the ones responsible for this mess.)

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To the extent that they participated in the democratic Greek political system (and a few more "to the extents"), they are responsible.  You cannot apply the individual culpability concepts of criminal justice to a whole nation unless you are trying to con people by diverting blame for the national and inevitable consequences of their collective greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride, etc.

Unless Greeks refuse to farm and unless a future Greek government refuses food aid like some African warlord, nobody will starve.



 
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:53:50 PM EDT
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the people starving in the street in Greece are not the ones responsible for this mess.
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Bullshit.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 5:06:34 PM EDT
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At least I'm able to hold my personal ideology at arm's length, and look at the actual facts.
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Not really.  Your ideology tells you the best option is to kick the can down the road.  Our ideology tells us this is as bad as it is because of generations of can kicking and it's past time to yank the band-aid, but if we can't do it yesterday today will do.

You don't want to see what this looks like when they yank the band-aid because your ideological brethren use an apocalyptic depiction of these events as a powerful tool to get your way.  Any outcome short of armageddon or more procrastination weakens you.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 5:13:02 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Let me ask you one question:  Do you call yourself a Christian?

(And I might add that the people starving in the street in Greece are not the ones responsible for this mess.)
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I am good with socialists starving in the street.


Let me ask you one question:  Do you call yourself a Christian?

(And I might add that the people starving in the street in Greece are not the ones responsible for this mess.)


Not even a little bit Christian.   No other questions?
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 5:14:02 PM EDT
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It's clear that you know absolutely nothing about Greece. Greek society has been the way it is since time immemorial.

I could teach a seminar about this, but why bother? If people, such as the ones in this forum, insist on seeing everything through a conservative ideological prism, they're going to be blind to everything that doesn't fit their preselected worldview.

At least I'm able to hold my personal ideology at arm's length, and look at the actual facts.
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Quoted:
Well sure, except this isn't death. This is paying the price for socialism. It's not the end of Greece. It's the end of this style of society in Greece.


It's clear that you know absolutely nothing about Greece. Greek society has been the way it is since time immemorial.

I could teach a seminar about this, but why bother? If people, such as the ones in this forum, insist on seeing everything through a conservative ideological prism, they're going to be blind to everything that doesn't fit their preselected worldview.

At least I'm able to hold my personal ideology at arm's length, and look at the actual facts.


Probably because you are special.  There can be no other reason, like other people with different world views and stuff.
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