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Link Posted: 5/2/2009 3:17:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By TwinLocust:
The South did win. Have you ever spent time in any Yankee shithole city? The Winters long, Women are homely, Liberals run everything, taxes are high.


Hey!

I just stuck up for Southerners in that other thread!!!

No bashing, damn it!
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:13:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By YankeeSpirit76:
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. Read it.


I will. I thank you and Sir hack for the suggestion.

For the record, Sir Hack was talking about Timeline-191. Guns of the South takes a more, shall we say radical method of how The South might have won. Its right down most
ARFComer's alleys.


Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:22:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
What if the Kaiser, Hitler, or the Japanese had won?

Bad things happen when the bad guys win.



Shrug.

The confederates were traitors to their country just as a guy who profits from working in a country who killed tens of thousands of Americans in the Korean war is....the only difference, the confederates are gone and not using their profits today to build up a blue water navy to kill Americans in the future if need be....

I'm more concerned about the Red Chinese than a few "the south shall rise again " types.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:29:08 PM EST
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:36:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/2/2009 6:36:41 PM EST by Yore353]
If the south had won, we northerners would be calling all soda pop...coke
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:49:35 PM EST
We would all be better off. No federal government could become oppresive knowing that it would face a serious possiblity of secession.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:51:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Obama wouldn't be president right now, that much is certain.


Yeah... and we all know the war was about slavery.
Link Posted: 5/2/2009 6:56:23 PM EST

Ultimately the south did win. Just take a look at the shamble the north is in.

Link Posted: 5/2/2009 7:02:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By paul_the_welder:

I would have a plantation instead of a house?


not in OK you wouldnt. unless your have indian blood or married into the tribe.
from what i have read and chatted with people about was that OK would have been indian only after the war.

of course this would be questionable today, but talks were done at the time with the CSA.

Link Posted: 5/2/2009 10:13:56 PM EST
Would they still be requiring internal passports for travel? Would they allow blacks to serve as soldiers in their military or still restrict them to support roles?
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 3:35:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".


Not too up on your history, are you?
Read a bit about the CSA and its government.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 3:51:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By StraightShooter7:
I think this about covers it:

If The South Would a Won

Hank Williams Jr.

If the south would a won we would a had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday.
If the south would a won we would a had it made.
I'd make my supreme court down in Texas and we wouldn't have no killers getting off free.
If they were proven guilty then they would swing quickly,
instead of writing' books and smiling' on T.V.
We'd all learn Cajun cooking' in Louisiana
and I'd put that capital back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track, 'cause we'd take Miami back
and throw all them pushers in the slammer.

Oh if the south would a won we would a had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day young Skynyrd died, we'd show our southern pride.
If the south would a won we would a had it made.
"Play a little Dixieland boys. Ah yes!"

I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee
and all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills.
The national treasury would be in Tupelo, Mississippi
and I'd put Hank Williams picture on one hundred dollar bill.
I'd have all the cars made in the Carolina's
and I'd ban all the ones made in China.
I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
and talk with that southern accent that drives men wild.
I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia, 'cause they sure can make 'em sound so fine.
I'm going up on Wolver ton Mountain and see ole Clifton Cowers and have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine.

Hey if the south would a won we'd a had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
When Patsy Cline passed away that would be our national holiday.
If the south would a won we'd a had it made.
Olay he he he . I said if the south would a won we would a had it made!

Might even be better off!


Youtube link
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 3:56:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:04:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".


You have it pegged.

The secession of South Carolina was a wake up call for the Republic that the Federal government was getting out of control and State’s rights were being trampled. Lincoln only got 39% of the vote and it was mostly from Northeasterners.

Lincoln’s dirty little war killed over a million people and it shouldn’t have been that way. The states should have seceded and the problems worked out over time. Remember that four of the states didn’t even secede until Lincoln announced that he was going to send troops to kill Americans and to destroy American cities. For instance, Tennessee first voted not to secede and then changed its mind with the announcement of Lincoln of the invasion.

I suspect that had there been no war all the issues would have been worked out within 20 years or so and the states would have come back together. Slavery was going away worldwide and there was as large an anti slavery movement in the South as there was in the North. Economics would have put an end to slavery without the bloodshed of a millions Americans.

I think we would have been better off with the secession. Even if the Southern States had remained separate the two countries would have formed economic and probably military alliances. At least the people in the Confederacy would have lived freer lives than the big government Northerners. If I remember correctly the Confederate Constitution even put restrictions on the size of the Federal government.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:04:26 AM EST
All be unemplyed w/ a bunch of shit in our yards?
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:14:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2009 4:34:19 AM EST by NavyDoc1]
Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Would they still be requiring internal passports for travel? Would they allow blacks to serve as soldiers in their military or still restrict them to support roles?


Many African Americans fought for the south. Fought as in combat, not support roles.
Blacks Who Fought For the South

Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live." Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."
Many knew Lincoln had little love for enslaved blacks and didn't wage war against the South for their benefit. Lincoln made that plain, saying, "I will say, then, that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." The very words of his 1863 Emancipation Proclamation revealed his deceit and cunning; it freed those slaves held "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States." It didn't apply to slaves in West Virginia and areas and states not in rebellion. Like Gen. Ulysses Grant's slaves, they had to wait for the 13th Amendment, Grant explained why he didn't free his slaves earlier, saying, "Good help is so hard to come by these days."
Lincoln waged war to "preserve the Union". The 1783 peace agreement with England (Treaty of Paris] left 13 sovereign nations. They came together in 1787, as principals, to create a federal government, as their agent, giving it specific delegated authority -specified in our Constitution. Principals always retain the right to fire their agent. The South acted on that right when it seceded. Its firing on Fort Sumter, federal property, gave Lincoln the pretext needed for the war.
The War Between the States, through force of arms, settled the question of secession, enabling the federal government to run roughshod over states' rights specified by the Constitution's 10th Amendment.
Sons of Confederate Veterans is a group dedicated to giving a truer account of the War Between the States. I'd like to see it erect on Richmond's Monument Avenue a statue of one of the thousands of black Confederate soldiers.




As for internal passports, it was a wartime measure of despiration, not unlike locking up Japanese Americans during WWII for security reasons. I find the hisory interesting, but I'm from Michigan so I would have fought for the Union had I been alive back then.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:18:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:26:22 AM EST
If the South had won the War of Northern Aggression I bet the country wouldn't be as fucked up as it is now!
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:31:21 AM EST
The South got the karmic retribution for slavery. The US is still getting the fallout from that 3/5 person rule in the Constitution. If the South had won, life would have been hell for everyone untill the end.

Stop trying to revise history; its dangerous.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:33:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Plattekill:
The South got the karmic retribution for slavery. The US is still getting the fallout from that 3/5 person rule in the Constitution. If the South had won, life would have been hell for everyone untill the end.

Stop trying to revise history; its dangerous.


No offense; but living in NY as you do you're the last individual I'd accept a lecture on the definition of freedom from.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:39:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By PROFESSORCHAOS:
Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
In before Dave_A shows up to yada yada yada........


he already posted on his troll account from China



Not quite. Dave at least has some type of logical argument behind his statements, lots of times he's using the wrong logic but I can understand what he's getting at. The Chinaman, not so much.......



Link Posted: 5/3/2009 4:45:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By FRIGID:
All be unemplyed w/ a bunch of shit in our yards?




Philadelphia

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 5:39:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By CarbineDad:
If the South had won? Two words

No Beans

in on one


+1
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:15:39 AM EST

If the South had won it would have been a mess. Only thing uniting the South was hating the North. There would have been more wars, and more wars. Then as time past international events would have really made that costly. The rise of Nazi Germany and the USSR with no USA around instead just some balkanized mess here. Recipe for what had been America really getting depopulated.
As for the North bashing, then South gets to claim the mess that is New Orleans. Really now rural areas are in better shape then urban areas.
Same true most of North or South. Sure there are some halfway respectable city in the South, same for North. This whole perpetual bring back the Confederacy stuff is too old. Its like bring back the Roman Empire. Not exactly useful in the day and age. Lets say states were all were to leave. The confederate hopefuls just don't have the numbers to bring back a confederacy. They of course don't have many of the major cities in the South. Plus there are areas that are more inclined to a greater Mexico.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:22:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Both would have been open to foreign exploitation.
The CSA, with its tyrannical government, would have been the first to fall to internal strife.
The USA would have become heavily dependent on foreign nations to buy its goods.


So what your saying is it would be exactly what we have now?
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:25:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I'd be kicked back sippin on a mint julep right now

Mint Julep was invented in the Round Robyn Bar inside the Willard Hotel in Washington, DC.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:29:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By g21fan:
Interesting question worthy of intelligent discussion. Hard to do that here.

I would like to know.




Danny

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:36:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By SirHacksalot:
Harry Turtledove has an entire series based on this assumption. No matter which 'side' you're on, they make for interesting reading.

SirHacksalot

these were great books though I did not care for how he ended the scenario it was probably the only way it could end. nukes, death camps for blacks....it was good reading. made you think of what could have been.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:37:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I'd be kicked back sippin on a mint julep right now


I'd be with you..
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 6:42:16 AM EST
my family never would have never had to leave Savannah ::thanks Sherman::
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:02:15 AM EST
We wouldn't be talking about it on AR15.com right now. The AR was a northern invention. Modern machining as we know it was born in the CT river valley

In all seriousness, "what if this had happened" questions are retarded. NOBODY has any idea what would or could have happened. We could have been 10x stronger and more prosperous than we are now or we could have spun into a 3rd world country. Nobody knows. Not those who write songs about it, not those who write books about it.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:05:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2009 7:12:26 AM EST by Dave_A]
Originally Posted By YankeeSpirit76:
If the South had won the war, or better yet, there was no war, North and South just seperated peacefully.
Do you think there would still be USA/CSA, or would we have eventually reunited something like East and West Germany did?


The resulting nations would have splintered further and further apart....

There would have been plenty of 'little wars' over the western territories....

The Europeans would have GLADLY jumped in playing both sides against the middle...

WWI and WWII might well have gone differently, with whatever fragmented nations existed here at that time taking opposing sides... It would be very possible that the war might actually have been fought ON THE GROUND within the boundaries of today's CONUS.

'Civilized' America would start in Canada, and what is now the US would be indistinguishable from S America, except for English vs Spanish...

Given the CSA's penchant for despotic treatment of it's citizens, and the inevitable loss of freedom from having an 'enemy' nation on your border... Personal freedom would be far less on ALL sides...

Further, it is highly possible that part or all of the CSA might have fallen under Soviet sway during the Cold War, as the repressed populations (both blacks and poor whites) would have bee ripe for Communist agitation.... 'Workers of the World' and all...

The CSA was a repressive, oligarchic regime, NOT some champion of freedom and personal liberty that the revisionists try and paint it into....

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:06:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:27:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Loki41872:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
What if the Kaiser, Hitler, or the Japanese had won?

Bad things happen when the bad guys win.


You are 100% right.

See present-day America.


+1 Check out Thomas J Dilorenzo's The Real Lincoln and Lincoln Unmasked and you will see who the real bad guys were and what the War was really about. The Lincoln cult is strong
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:32:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
We wouldn't be talking about it on AR15.com right now. The AR was a northern invention. Modern machining as we know it was born in the CT river valley

In all seriousness, "what if this had happened" questions are retarded. NOBODY has any idea what would or could have happened. We could have been 10x stronger and more prosperous than we are now or we could have spun into a 3rd world country. Nobody knows. Not those who write songs about it, not those who write books about it.


Homerun
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:34:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Guz:
Originally Posted By Loki41872:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
What if the Kaiser, Hitler, or the Japanese had won?

Bad things happen when the bad guys win.


You are 100% right.

See present-day America.


+1 Check out Thomas J Dilorenzo's The Real Lincoln and Lincoln Unmasked and you will see who the real bad guys were and what the War was really about. The Lincoln cult is strong



Then check out "Vindicating Lincoln" by Thomas L. Krannawitter.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:46:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By YankeeSpirit76:
If the South had won the war.....


We wouldn't have to worry about a President from Kenya today!!!

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:49:21 AM EST
Pretty sure the correct answer is "we'd have had it made".
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 7:54:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By g21fan:
Interesting question worthy of intelligent discussion. Hard to do that here.


More like IMPOSSIBLE.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:07:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Flash66:
Originally Posted By max229:
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".
You have it pegged.

The secession of South Carolina was a wake up call for the Republic that the Federal government was getting out of control and State’s rights were being trampled. Lincoln only got 39% of the vote and it was mostly from Northeasterners.

Lincoln’s dirty little war killed over a million people and it shouldn’t have been that way. The states should have seceded and the problems worked out over time. Remember that four of the states didn’t even secede until Lincoln announced that he was going to send troops to kill Americans and to destroy American cities. For instance, Tennessee first voted not to secede and then changed its mind with the announcement of Lincoln of the invasion.

I suspect that had there been no war all the issues would have been worked out within 20 years or so and the states would have come back together. Slavery was going away worldwide and there was as large an anti slavery movement in the South as there was in the North. Economics would have put an end to slavery without the bloodshed of a millions Americans.

I think we would have been better off with the secession. Even if the Southern States had remained separate the two countries would have formed economic and probably military alliances. At least the people in the Confederacy would have lived freer lives than the big government Northerners. If I remember correctly the Confederate Constitution even put restrictions on the size of the Federal government.

I don't even think that it would have taken twenty years. Withing ten years (IMHO) problems would have worked themselves out and the CSA would have been welcomed back into the union. Until that happened the two sides would have remained friendly allies. The war was unnecessary. The south would have rejoined the union and slavery would have died all on their own. The war simply got the ball rolling on "big government" and raised animosity between fellow Americans, not to mention the massive waste of life.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:16:04 AM EST
Dude...........................




Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:36:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flash66:
Originally Posted By max229:
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".


You have it pegged.

The secession of South Carolina was a wake up call for the Republic that the Federal government was getting out of control and State’s rights were being trampled. Lincoln only got 39% of the vote and it was mostly from Northeasterners.

Lincoln’s dirty little war killed over a million people and it shouldn’t have been that way. The states should have seceded and the problems worked out over time. Remember that four of the states didn’t even secede until Lincoln announced that he was going to send troops to kill Americans and to destroy American cities. For instance, Tennessee first voted not to secede and then changed its mind with the announcement of Lincoln of the invasion.

I suspect that had there been no war all the issues would have been worked out within 20 years or so and the states would have come back together. Slavery was going away worldwide and there was as large an anti slavery movement in the South as there was in the North. Economics would have put an end to slavery without the bloodshed of a millions Americans.

I think we would have been better off with the secession. Even if the Southern States had remained separate the two countries would have formed economic and probably military alliances. At least the people in the Confederacy would have lived freer lives than the big government Northerners. If I remember correctly the Confederate Constitution even put restrictions on the size of the Federal government.


Lincoln's war, you sound like one the liberals spouting about Bush's war. You bomb a Federal fort into submission and you expect no Federal response? Try it today and see what happens.
I suppose you think we were wrong to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 also.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:47:37 AM EST
The country sure wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 8:55:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2009 9:01:52 AM EST by CTbuilder1]
Originally Posted By MossyOakMan:
The country sure wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.


How could anyone possibly know that. Ansewr: they can't. Could be better, could be worse. IMPOSSIBLE to know.

This is the main problem with static vs. dynamic thinking. In static thinking you selectively remove one aspect thinking all others will be unaffected. In dynamic thinking you realize that any slight change affects everything else around it. That's why "what if's" are pointless.

The assumption made by most here about the south winning assumes our life would be 90% the same today, with the same luxuries and innovations just more free without a black president. When in reality we have no way of knowing what differences would have happened in a decade and a half. WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam, etc. The formation of isreal, Islam, etc. How could we possibly know how world history would have shaped if we had not stayed as one nation?
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:05:14 AM EST
The south would be like eastern europe.

without the cool castles, culture and hot womminz.
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:07:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:09:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By TwinLocust:
The South did win. Have you ever spent time in any Yankee shithole city? The Winters long, Women are homely, Liberals run everything, taxes are high.


Ahh yes, those southern beauties.

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:12:10 AM EST
Some fine Yankee girls.


Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:13:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By Flash66:
Originally Posted By max229:
I believe that they would have reunited as the cultures were still relatively similar and they were routed in a common history. One thing is for certain though, it would have assured victory for the dominion of the states over the federal government. The victory of the north was the real beginning of the "big federal government".


You have it pegged.

The secession of South Carolina was a wake up call for the Republic that the Federal government was getting out of control and State’s rights were being trampled. Lincoln only got 39% of the vote and it was mostly from Northeasterners.

Lincoln’s dirty little war killed over a million people and it shouldn’t have been that way. The states should have seceded and the problems worked out over time. Remember that four of the states didn’t even secede until Lincoln announced that he was going to send troops to kill Americans and to destroy American cities. For instance, Tennessee first voted not to secede and then changed its mind with the announcement of Lincoln of the invasion.

I suspect that had there been no war all the issues would have been worked out within 20 years or so and the states would have come back together. Slavery was going away worldwide and there was as large an anti slavery movement in the South as there was in the North. Economics would have put an end to slavery without the bloodshed of a millions Americans.

I think we would have been better off with the secession. Even if the Southern States had remained separate the two countries would have formed economic and probably military alliances. At least the people in the Confederacy would have lived freer lives than the big government Northerners. If I remember correctly the Confederate Constitution even put restrictions on the size of the Federal government.


Lincoln's war, you sound like one the liberals spouting about Bush's war. You bomb a Federal fort into submission and you expect no Federal response? Try it today and see what happens.
I suppose you think we were wrong to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 also.


No it wasn't quite the way the way you described.

Lincoln made a very deliberate move to challenge South Carolina’s sovereignty by re supplying Fort Sumter. Lincoln had given up many other Federal installations but decided that he was going to provoke a war in South Carolina. The Southerners did not kill anybody at Ft Sumter and it was hardly a reason to start a war that killed millions of Americans and destroyed scores of American cities.

The war was really started when that madman Lincoln raised an invasion force to kill Americans because they wouldn’t yield to the out of control Federal government.. The day that the filthy Union Army crossed the Potomac River to kill Americans that wanted to live in freedom was the day the war really started.

It would be good if some people did a little research rather than just accept the politically correct Jr High School version of the war.

Link Posted: 5/3/2009 9:16:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Power2thePeople:
Do you realize what you have just done?



Divided by zero ?
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