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Posted: 11/30/2008 2:58:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2008 12:08:12 PM EDT by BlackDog714]
OK guys, I'm getting tired of having to redo all these threads... Cut out the personal attacks!!!



It's been confirmed (several times in this thread) that Lon Horuichi is both a close personal friend and endorser of HS Precision rifles.

This both disgusting and a slap in the face to all gun owners.

PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS THREAD GET LOCKED DUE TO PERSONAL ATTACKS.

If you want to comment on the legalities or moralities of Ruby Ridge or Waco, please start your own thread.

A response from Tommy Milner at Remington:

Originally Posted By Bubbles:

To get this thread back on topic - update from Tommy Millner at Remington:

Because its thanksgiving and everyone is off, we have not made contact with HS. We have taken any reference to HS from our web site..

When you first emailed me I honestly did not recall horiuchi's name so you caught me unawares. I also do not read the blogs so the fact there was an issue came as a surpise.

In any event, HS makes a great product and we are a large customer of theirs. Why they would pick a super controversial spokesperson is beyond me. Doing this violates pure business common sense. Early next week we will use whatever persuasive powers at our disposal to get HS to do the right thing..

Do me a favor and tell those on the bolgs that Remington and I are now fully aware of the issue, in full agreement with the outrage, and will do what we can t exert pressure on HS to reverse course.

Thanks

Tommy



ETA: For the newcomers, HS Precision builds high end precision rifles and stocks. The rifles are known for their accuracy and reliability. Their stocks are used by many custom builders as well as most of the production precision rifle builders.

HS Precision has decided that they were going to use the praise and accolades from one Lon Horiuchi. Mr. Horiuchi shot and killed Vickie Weaver while holding her infant child during the standoff at Ruby Ridge in 1992. No matter what side you believe in, there is a fairly poor opinion through out the LE community as well as normal gun owners of Lon Horiuchi and it seems he is a VERY poor choice as a company spokesman.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:01:17 PM EDT
Good job by Remington.

H-S has some 'splainin to do.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:01:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:07:58 PM EDT
Indeed it will be interesting.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:10:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 3:11:17 PM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]
A sniper aiming at me while I was holding my child couldn't force me to tag this thread.

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:12:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maryland_Shooter:
Indeed it will be interesting.


Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:13:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:13:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 3:14:44 PM EDT by USGI_45]
So this is the 3rd or 4th thread about this now? Fucking pathetic!
If we cant go to the POS forum and shit on their threads why can they do that to ours?
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:14:56 PM EDT
This issue that I have with H-S is not the rifles being tested and vetted by the FBI, but the ad campaign using Horiuchi to sell them. Certainly they were under no obligation to use Horiuchi's words in their ads, nor would they be obligated to front his name in any public way.

Claiming that not using Horiuchi's words would be grounds for a scandal is rather dubious.

Good on Remington, and a big raised eyebrow for H-S.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:17:12 PM EDT
i thought remingtons original response was different? IIRC it had a bit more asshole interjected into it?
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:17:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
OK guys, I'm getting tired of having to redo all these threads... Cut out the personal attacks!!!


What he said.

Good luck.

'Til you ban people for it it wont change.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:17:36 PM EDT
Remington for the win.

Bet we see a forced apology from HS and the removal of Lon Horuchi from all future brochures.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:17:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
OK guys, I'm getting tired of having to redo all these threads... Cut out the personal attacks!!!


What he said.


Would not it be easier, and more productive, to just edit the COC violating post and lock those members?
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:17:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -JC-:
VERY interesting turn....

Lets see what Remington Does.



They will do nothing.

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:19:59 PM EDT
Remington has done right (again), now I'm curious to see HS's response.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:21:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
OK guys, I'm getting tired of having to redo all these threads... Cut out the personal attacks!!!


What he said.

Good luck.

'Til you ban people for it it wont change.


agree, there were a few people intentionally stirring shit in the last thread
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:22:08 PM EDT
It looks like Remington is stepping up to the plate.

I need another 700 anyway. I'll definitely get one if this pans out.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:22:18 PM EDT
I liked the HS response. They have basically acknowledged that Horiuchi is what he is.

They should have just said "Chosen by the FBI" instead of giving any attention or credibility to Horiuchi, but that's just my opinion.

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:24:27 PM EDT
Now is when we all email Tommy Milner and let him know that he has done the right thing, and sold many rifles.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:25:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Holy Monkey Balls... Mad Ogre actually got a response from HS Precision...

A valid email in response to my H-S Precision post: “Dear Ogre, My first reaction was like yours, but I don't think it's a fair one. Let me pose some questions to you. Should H-S not have tried to have their rifle selected by the FBI because Horiuchi was the official in charge of the selection process–– or should they have entered, and having won, take pride in their accomplishment (which was not done by sucking up to Horiuchi, but by satisfying relevant, objective criteria)? Having won, should they have not printed the FBI's (i.e. Horiuchi writing for the FBI's) letter? I suspect that the news that it was Horiuchi would have gotten out, and then H-S would have been under fire for trying to suppress it. That's why I think they did what they had to do. And BTW, if the H-S rifle really is that good, even though Horiuchi made the FBI snipers' reputation stink, isn't it better that, despite Horiuchi, the FBI ought to have them? There may well be something wrong with the FBI that someone like that is still with the agency, but how could H-S do anything about it by not submitting their rifle? Peter”




Personally, I think their not submitting a rifle would go a long way toward making the point that needs to be made. Any company that has principals should do what people with principals are supposed to do: Not do business with agencies who knowingly employ people like L.H.. Obviously, to HS Precision, money takes precedent over principals.

I think that says all we need to know.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:25:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 3:26:56 PM EDT by PoopyPants603]
My I recomend a Mcmillan stock to those who are into bolt gun action? The Mcmillan A-5 comes to mind, in woodland camo finish naturally.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:30:09 PM EDT
Because of this line
"Do me a favor and tell those on the bolgs that Remington and I are now fully aware of the issue, in full agreement with the outrage, and will do what we can t exert pressure on HS to reverse course. "

my next rifle will be a Remington. I bought a Savage recently and it seems to be a good rifle but my next one will be a Remington.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:30:36 PM EDT
And what exactly is Remington going to do?

Does anyone really think they will stop using H-S products as a result of Sniper Lon's letter?

Honestly ask yourself the above question.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:30:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:
OK guys, I'm getting tired of having to redo all these threads... Cut out the personal attacks!!!

PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS THREAD GET LOCKED DUE TO PERSONAL ATTACKS.




your mother dresses you funny

must have missed the other threads, that is a special kind of fucked-up

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:33:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225:
And what exactly is Remington going to do?

Does anyone really think they will stop using H-S products as a result of Sniper Lon's letter?

Honestly ask yourself the above question.


i doubt it seriously but coming out and saying that HS fucked up and they're going to try and use some of THEIR muscle to correct SOMEBODY ELSE'S stupidity says something

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:34:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 3:36:39 PM EDT by TrijiCog]
Are they marketing their stocks to the LE community or Citizens ?

Going to Camp Perry and getting the endorsement from any number of the excellent long range shooters there would carry more weight with citizens than an FBI endorsement.

Now,if they are marketing the stock towards law enforcement agencies,an endorsement from Horiuchi might carry some weight.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:38:22 PM EDT
This makes me glad that all of the hunting rifles and shotguns that I've bought are Remington's.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:42:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:HS Response:

Holy Monkey Balls... Mad Ogre actually got a response from HS Precision...

A valid email in response to my H-S Precision post: “Dear Ogre, My first reaction was like yours, but I don't think it's a fair one. Let me pose some questions to you. Should H-S not have tried to have their rifle selected by the FBI because Horiuchi was the official in charge of the selection process–– or should they have entered, and having won, take pride in their accomplishment (which was not done by sucking up to Horiuchi, but by satisfying relevant, objective criteria)? Having won, should they have not printed the FBI's (i.e. Horiuchi writing for the FBI's) letter? I suspect that the news that it was Horiuchi would have gotten out, and then H-S would have been under fire for trying to suppress it. That's why I think they did what they had to do. And BTW, if the H-S rifle really is that good, even though Horiuchi made the FBI snipers' reputation stink, isn't it better that, despite Horiuchi, the FBI ought to have them? There may well be something wrong with the FBI that someone like that is still with the agency, but how could H-S do anything about it by not submitting their rifle? Peter”


Why is this written in 3rd person, if it's from H-S?
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:44:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Merrell:
Good job by Remington.

H-S has some 'splainin to do.




Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:45:07 PM EDT
I was planning on buying a 25-06 this next year. Originally I was going to go with savage but now I think I'm going to get an 700 instead. I like the way Remington handled the whole zumbo thing and I bet they handle this just as well. They also came out with a AR which even further adds weight to the argument that an ar is a sporting rifle. I just feel they understand the shooting community and should be rewarded with us supporting them.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:47:21 PM EDT
good on remington.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:49:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By skinnysarge79:
This makes me glad that all of the hunting rifles and shotguns that I've bought are Remington's.


A lot of Remingtons come from the factory with HS stocks...
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:51:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 4:01:53 PM EDT by Bama-Shooter]
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:53:10 PM EDT
It's been confirmed (several times in this thread) that Lon Horuichi is both a close personal friend and endorser of HS Precision rifles.

This is both disgusting and a slap in the face to all gun owners.


How is the fact that Lon Horuchi is a close personal friend of someone at H-S Precision "disgusting" or "a slap in the face to all gun owners"? He can be friends with whoever he wants.

H-S makes real good stuff.
Either buy it or don't.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:54:58 PM EDT
Tagged
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 3:56:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:HS Response:

Holy Monkey Balls... Mad Ogre actually got a response from HS Precision...

A valid email in response to my H-S Precision post: “Dear Ogre, My first reaction was like yours, but I don't think it's a fair one. Let me pose some questions to you. Should H-S not have tried to have their rifle selected by the FBI because Horiuchi was the official in charge of the selection process–– or should they have entered, and having won, take pride in their accomplishment (which was not done by sucking up to Horiuchi, but by satisfying relevant, objective criteria)? Having won, should they have not printed the FBI's (i.e. Horiuchi writing for the FBI's) letter? I suspect that the news that it was Horiuchi would have gotten out, and then H-S would have been under fire for trying to suppress it. That's why I think they did what they had to do. And BTW, if the H-S rifle really is that good, even though Horiuchi made the FBI snipers' reputation stink, isn't it better that, despite Horiuchi, the FBI ought to have them? There may well be something wrong with the FBI that someone like that is still with the agency, but how could H-S do anything about it by not submitting their rifle? Peter”


Why is this written in 3rd person, if it's from H-S?


Because it's not from H-S, it's from one of Mad Ogre's readers to him. I said this in thread #2 but it got passed over in favor of trollsports.

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:00:42 PM EDT
Damnit, I may just have to buy something Remington now.....Not that that is a bad thing mind you.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:01:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2008 2:47:47 AM EDT by PBIR]
Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
It's been confirmed (several times in this thread) that Lon Horuichi is both a close personal friend and endorser of HS Precision rifles.

This is both disgusting and a slap in the face to all gun owners.


How is the fact that Lon Horuchi is a close personal friend of someone at H-S Precision "disgusting" or "a slap in the face to all gun owners"? He can be friends with whoever he wants.

H-S makes real good stuff.
Either buy it or don't.


Because lh was a triggerman in one of the most egregious recent examples of overzealous law enforcement this country has ever seen. The government went out of its way to frame a guy for selling a sawed off shotgun and then killed his wife and one of his children. Any proponent of the 2nd amendment, the US constitution, the idea of what the US is supposed to be, and basic human decency should despise lh's action that day and everything associated with it. I find the mention of his name offensive if truth be told.

edited, I stand corrected
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:01:29 PM EDT
Can someone sum up for me real quick what exactly is going on here?

Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:02:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SBCZILLA:
Can someone sum up for me real quick what exactly is going on here?



+1 the OP doesn't make sense to me.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:03:38 PM EDT
Duly noted.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:06:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2008 2:48:47 AM EDT by PBIR]
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Originally Posted By SBCZILLA:
Can someone sum up for me real quick what exactly is going on here?



+1 the OP doesn't make sense to me.


Lon the babykiller is now a bureaucrat at the FBI and was overseeing a competition to award a $1,000,000+ contract to replace the agency's sniper rifles. H-S came out on top, and Lon the babykiller wrote a nice little letter about it which H-S is using as marketing material. Many of us do not appreciate that as we feel Ruby Ridge was an affront to the very spirit of America, and Lon was at the very front of it shooting an unarmed woman. Therefore, many of us will never buy H-S products again. How's that?

eta: Also, Remington has been using H-S products but since they learned of the Lon endorsement they are supposedly going to pressure H-S to drop it. See T. Milner's email that is quoted in the OP.

edited, I stand corrected.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:08:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 4:09:45 PM EDT by TrijiCog]
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Originally Posted By SBCZILLA:
Can someone sum up for me real quick what exactly is going on here?



+1 the OP doesn't make sense to me.


1) Op starts thread about Horiuchi endorsing HS

2) Arfcom gets upset

3) Some ArfCops join a call to arms and rile Arfcom even more,resulting in thread lock (mission accomplished)

4) Now this thread with responses from Remington
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:11:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PBIR:
Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Originally Posted By BlackDog714:HS Response:

Holy Monkey Balls... Mad Ogre actually got a response from HS Precision...

A valid email in response to my H-S Precision post: “Dear Ogre, My first reaction was like yours, but I don't think it's a fair one. Let me pose some questions to you. Should H-S not have tried to have their rifle selected by the FBI because Horiuchi was the official in charge of the selection process–– or should they have entered, and having won, take pride in their accomplishment (which was not done by sucking up to Horiuchi, but by satisfying relevant, objective criteria)? Having won, should they have not printed the FBI's (i.e. Horiuchi writing for the FBI's) letter? I suspect that the news that it was Horiuchi would have gotten out, and then H-S would have been under fire for trying to suppress it. That's why I think they did what they had to do. And BTW, if the H-S rifle really is that good, even though Horiuchi made the FBI snipers' reputation stink, isn't it better that, despite Horiuchi, the FBI ought to have them? There may well be something wrong with the FBI that someone like that is still with the agency, but how could H-S do anything about it by not submitting their rifle? Peter”


Why is this written in 3rd person, if it's from H-S?


Because it's not from H-S, it's from one of Mad Ogre's readers to him. I said this in thread #2 but it got passed over in favor of trollsports.



I was going to post that in the last one. It's from somebody trying to defend H-S.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:12:50 PM EDT
LH worked at my agency for a time after he retired. Real quiet dude. I conducted his in-process brief.

When he walked in, there was something about his face that clicked, but I couldn't place it. Then I
looked at the sign-in roster, and confirmed it.

He was only there for a few months. Not sure where he went from there.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:14:46 PM EDT
Please post any updates in the OP to save from digging through 7 pages.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:17:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
It's been confirmed (several times in this thread) that Lon Horuichi is both a close personal friend and endorser of HS Precision rifles.

This is both disgusting and a slap in the face to all gun owners.


How is the fact that Lon Horuchi is a close personal friend of someone at H-S Precision "disgusting" or "a slap in the face to all gun owners"? He can be friends with whoever he wants.

H-S makes real good stuff.
Either buy it or don't.


Please SHUT UP. We dont need this shit in this thread.

MODS, come on, another LEO stirring the pot in an H-S thread?
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:22:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 4:32:56 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
So despite the thread title, there is no written response from H-S???
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:24:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:32:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2008 4:33:12 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
The claim is that the above quote is from H-S, it's not. Which just adds to the witchhunt mentality going on so far.

H-S some explaining to do, for sure –– they have NOT responded as yet. Despite the claims.
Link Posted: 11/30/2008 4:34:51 PM EDT
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