User Panel
Posted: 2/10/2008 12:29:08 PM EDT
It does not say "United States Citizens". Discuss. |
|
|
If you are talking about the BoR then why did you quote the Declaration of Independance? ETA: sorry
|
|
They may have been created equal but they did not stay that way. Thats how I choose to look at it.
|
|
|
The Declaration of Independence can apply to everyone.
The Constitution should only apply to legal tax paying citizens, nationals, and residents who are not out to undermind the constitution. |
|
If you read it that literally... Does that mean women have no inalienable rights? I suppose prisoners in jail have the right to keep arms and the warden can't search his cell for contraband to seize either.
|
|
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to lose their freedom.
If a man committs murder, he will be arrested and placed in a cell and maybe even be executed for his crime. His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society. Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society. |
|
You should only have those rights removed after due process or law, i.e., a fair and open trial, and a jury of their peers - to name a couple criteria. ETA: Clarification. |
|
|
Those people in Gitmo should be treated like POWs --> kept in prison until the war is over.
Wondering when 'The War on Terror' is over? About the same time as 'The War on Drugs' and 'The War on Poverty' I reckon. Illegal aliens do go before a judge before their deporation. If they committ a heinous crime they do go before a judge and jury. Not sure what your gripe is here. |
|
Wrong document. The controversy has more to do with slaves than terrorists. There was no meaningful United States of America at the time anyway.
|
|
Gotta disagree with you here:
What I said in the other thread:
|
||
|
I don't have a big problem with your statement. Semantics, more than disagreement. |
|||
|
HAHA! I was having trouble making that point, so just didn't. I would've bet the farm we're on the same page. |
||||
|
Either way the end result is the same. |
|||
|
Yep |
|
|
I think is funny that people say that the rights guaranteed in the BoR are "granted by God" etc. and then say they should only apply to American citizens.
|
|
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.
It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World. |
|
If you are going to play devils advocate, you need to try harder. You have to make some connection between the Declaration and the BOR.
afaik, the former is a general statement explaining the need for forming a new nation. The latter lays out the rules to be followed by citizens of that new land. Not the same. IMHO, the BOR should only apply to citizens. Being a Citizen should MEAN something. |
|
"All men are created equal" The BoR enumerates specific rights endowed upon man by his creator. Therefore, ALL men have specific rights endowed upon them by their creator. |
|
|
"ALL MEN" Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials. "ALL MEN" |
|
|
Nope, they are criminals, criminals gave up their rights when they committed crimes.
|
|
Exactly. |
|
|
Granted by God to American Citizens. Why the is concept hard to comprehend? Our Nation was once recognized as a righteous undertaking and subsequently blessed by the creator. How else can you explain the success of our little 230 year old experiment? |
|
|
No, they don't. They are stripped of some of their rights when they are convicted in a Court of Law. Failure to have due process means your rights still exist. |
|
|
If you break the laws protecting the people who recognize those rights then you will not be treated as an equal.Then you will be beat with a bat , shot , stabbed , run over, and fed to the dogs.
|
|
According to your argument, then the rest of the WORLD should be getting services from the USA. Sorry, but that argument does not hold water.
|
|
Because those are not the words on the document. |
|
|
The rest of the world IS getting services from the USA. |
|
|
Where are you getting that? Not that I doubt you, but I'm genuinely interested. |
||
|
Fuck all that. Border Jumper: Take me to your leader, I have rights as outlined by your BOR, Constitution, and these 2 Bazooka bubble gum wrappers I found. Me: Yep, you've got rights. And right now, you've got the right to sleep on your back, because I'm putting you in the cell with Bubba. |
||
|
The Declaration of Independance clearly states that the rights of men are endowed upon them by their creator. The Bill of Rights, an addendum to the Constitution, spells out several rights with specificity. If the rights of man are endowed upon them by their creator, all rights, even ones enumerated in a document, are endowed upon man by his creator. |
|||
|
Nationwide, that is the Declaration of Independence not the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNTIED STATES. If people want to use it to "declare independence" use it but your comparing apples to oranges. The founding fathers basically used that to tell England this is why then drafted the constitution to say these are our laws. How is this hard to understand. All men are created equal but that does not guarantee them a right to break the law.
|
|
Kinda makes the "illegal war" legal, huh? |
||
|
One of the most basic principals of Locke's concept of the social contract is that only those who submit to the Social Contract are protected by it. Yes, all people are created equal and have equal rights--they however do not have equal protections. I submit to the authority of our government granted it by the Constitution and am thereby protected by said government. An illegal immigrant, terrorist, etc., does not submit and is therefore not protected. In effect, they are not parties to the contractual agreement between we the people and the government we created.
|
|
Why are you putting him in the cell with Bubba? To keep him for an undetermined amount of time? Or for a short time prior to his due process of law? |
|
|
So we can invade countries where these rights are being violated in order to restore said rights to the people? Cuts both ways. |
||
|
So you are saying one part of our Founding Documents does not apply to other parts of our founding documents? Do you work for BATFE??? |
|
|
Due process - however long that takes. Everyone deserves that - even if it comes at the end of a bat. I'll just come and say it, and I have to wonder if this is what you're looking for: I'm all for disallowing some people the free expression of their rights. The "with Bubba" part was just humor. You think I'm bad on the Web at humor, you should hear me in real life. |
||
|
Preamble of the Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The Constitution, and BOR is a contract between "We the People, the Government, and "our Posterity". The Declaration explains the ideals that our Nation is based on, the Constitution is the law of the land. I honestly don't understand the confusion. |
|
The argument could be made (and has been by Jorge Bushe), that the moral authority exists. Not sure about legal authority (that's a different subject). |
|||
|
Then why does the document not say "All United States Citizens"? |
|
|
That's good enough for me. |
|
|
The LEGAL authority came from 12 years of violation of the UN-mandated cease fire accords and disarmament agreements. Are you that stubborn? |
||||
|
|
||
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.