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Posted: 2/10/2008 12:29:08 PM EDT

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. <snip>



It does not say "United States Citizens". Discuss.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:30:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:32:44 PM EDT by Jrock82]
If you are talking about the BoR then why did you quote the Declaration of Independance? ETA: sorry
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:30:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:32:35 PM EDT
They may have been created equal but they did not stay that way. Thats how I choose to look at it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:32:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:33:14 PM EDT by Steve_The_Pirate]
height=8
Originally Posted By Jrock82:
If you are talking about the BoR then why did you quote the Constitution? Declaration of Independence


fixedh
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:33:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:33:44 PM EDT by DragoMuseveni]
The Declaration of Independence can apply to everyone.

The Constitution should only apply to legal tax paying citizens, nationals, and residents who are not out to undermind the constitution.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:34:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:39:54 PM EDT by orangelo]
If you read it that literally... Does that mean women have no inalienable rights? I suppose prisoners in jail have the right to keep arms and the warden can't search his cell for contraband to seize either.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:34:15 PM EDT
I agree. The BoR enumerates rights...it does not grant them.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:35:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:37:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:40:59 PM EDT by badfish274]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to lose their freedom.

If a man committs murder, he will be arrested and placed in a cell and maybe even be executed for his crime. His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society.

Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society.


You should only have those rights removed after due process or law, i.e., a fair and open trial, and a jury of their peers - to name a couple criteria.

ETA: Clarification.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:39:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:46:51 PM EDT by orangelo]
Those people in Gitmo should be treated like POWs --> kept in prison until the war is over.

Wondering when 'The War on Terror' is over? About the same time as 'The War on Drugs' and 'The War on Poverty' I reckon.


Illegal aliens do go before a judge before their deporation. If they committ a heinous crime they do go before a judge and jury. Not sure what your gripe is here.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:39:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:41:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:43:08 PM EDT by xylo]
Wrong document. The controversy has more to do with slaves than terrorists. There was no meaningful United States of America at the time anyway.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:44:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 12:45:35 PM EDT by Backstop]
Gotta disagree with you here:


Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society.

Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society.


What I said in the other thread:


Those rights can never be taken away.

All a government can do is limit the free expression of those rights.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:45:28 PM EDT
All men are created equal, but they don't stay that way.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:49:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:50:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Backstop:
Gotta disagree with you here:


Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society.

Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society.


What I said in the other thread:


Those rights can never be taken away.

All a government can do is limit the free expression of those rights.



I don't have a big problem with your statement. Semantics, more than disagreement.


HAHA! I was having trouble making that point, so just didn't. I would've bet the farm we're on the same page.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 12:54:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Backstop:
Gotta disagree with you here:


Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society.

Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society.


What I said in the other thread:


Those rights can never be taken away.

All a government can do is limit the free expression of those rights.



Either way the end result is the same.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:03:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
While God creates all men as free men, men can do certain things that cause them to lose their freedom.

If a man committs murder, he will be arrested and placed in a cell and maybe even be executed for his crime. His "rights" have obviously been removed by society, as a punishment for a crime against society.

Those mentioned in your title are "criminals" and have properly had their rights revoked by society.


Yep
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:07:25 PM EDT
I think is funny that people say that the rights guaranteed in the BoR are "granted by God" etc. and then say they should only apply to American citizens.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:08:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:10:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 1:12:24 PM EDT by JoseyWales]
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:18:12 PM EDT
If you are going to play devils advocate, you need to try harder. You have to make some connection between the Declaration and the BOR.

afaik, the former is a general statement explaining the need for forming a new nation.

The latter lays out the rules to be followed by citizens of that new land.

Not the same.

IMHO, the BOR should only apply to citizens. Being a Citizen should MEAN something.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:23:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
If you are going to play devils advocate, you need to try harder. You have to make some connection between the Declaration and the BOR.

afaik, the former is a general statement explaining the need for forming a new nation.

The latter lays out the rules to be followed by citizens of that new land.

Not the same.

IMHO, the BOR should only apply to citizens. Being a Citizen should MEAN something.


"All men are created equal"

The BoR enumerates specific rights endowed upon man by his creator.

Therefore, ALL men have specific rights endowed upon them by their creator.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:24:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:25:27 PM EDT
Nope, they are criminals, criminals gave up their rights when they committed crimes.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:25:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By badfish274:

You should only have those rights removed after due process or law, i.e., a fair and open trial, and a jury of their peers - to name a couple criteria.

ETA: Clarification.


Exactly.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:25:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Osirus23:
I think is funny that people say that the rights guaranteed in the BoR are "granted by God" etc. and then say they should only apply to American citizens.



Granted by God to American Citizens. Why the is concept hard to comprehend? Our Nation was once recognized as a righteous undertaking and subsequently blessed by the creator. How else can you explain the success of our little 230 year old experiment?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:26:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By POOR_MAN:
Nope, they are criminals, criminals gave up their rights when they committed crimes.


No, they don't.

They are stripped of some of their rights when they are convicted in a Court of Law.

Failure to have due process means your rights still exist.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:26:49 PM EDT
If you break the laws protecting the people who recognize those rights then you will not be treated as an equal.Then you will be beat with a bat , shot , stabbed , run over, and fed to the dogs.

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:26:57 PM EDT
According to your argument, then the rest of the WORLD should be getting services from the USA. Sorry, but that argument does not hold water.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:27:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:


Granted by God to American Citizens. Why the is concept hard to comprehend?


Because those are not the words on the document.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:28:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
According to your argument, then the rest of the WORLD should be getting services from the USA. Sorry, but that argument does not hold water.


The rest of the world IS getting services from the USA.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:28:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
If you are going to play devils advocate, you need to try harder. You have to make some connection between the Declaration and the BOR.

afaik, the former is a general statement explaining the need for forming a new nation.

The latter lays out the rules to be followed by citizens of that new land.

Not the same.

IMHO, the BOR should only apply to citizens. Being a Citizen should MEAN something.


"All men are created equal"

The BoR enumerates specific rights endowed upon man by his creator.


Therefore, ALL men have specific rights endowed upon them by their creator.



Where are you getting that? Not that I doubt you, but I'm genuinely interested.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:30:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 1:30:38 PM EDT by Jrock82]

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"


Including?

Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:32:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"


Fuck all that.

Border Jumper: Take me to your leader, I have rights as outlined by your BOR, Constitution, and these 2 Bazooka bubble gum wrappers I found.

Me: Yep, you've got rights. And right now, you've got the right to sleep on your back, because I'm putting you in the cell with Bubba.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:32:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
If you are going to play devils advocate, you need to try harder. You have to make some connection between the Declaration and the BOR.

afaik, the former is a general statement explaining the need for forming a new nation.

The latter lays out the rules to be followed by citizens of that new land.

Not the same.

IMHO, the BOR should only apply to citizens. Being a Citizen should MEAN something.


"All men are created equal"

The BoR enumerates specific rights endowed upon man by his creator.


Therefore, ALL men have specific rights endowed upon them by their creator.



Where are you getting that? Not that I doubt you, but I'm genuinely interested.


The Declaration of Independance clearly states that the rights of men are endowed upon them by their creator.

The Bill of Rights, an addendum to the Constitution, spells out several rights with specificity.

If the rights of man are endowed upon them by their creator, all rights, even ones enumerated in a document, are endowed upon man by his creator.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:33:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 1:36:47 PM EDT by Stallion1]
Nationwide, that is the Declaration of Independence not the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNTIED STATES. If people want to use it to "declare independence" use it but your comparing apples to oranges. The founding fathers basically used that to tell England this is why then drafted the constitution to say these are our laws. How is this hard to understand. All men are created equal but that does not guarantee them a right to break the law.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:34:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. <snip>



It does not say "United States Citizens". Discuss.



Kinda makes the "illegal war" legal, huh?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:34:48 PM EDT
One of the most basic principals of Locke's concept of the social contract is that only those who submit to the Social Contract are protected by it. Yes, all people are created equal and have equal rights--they however do not have equal protections. I submit to the authority of our government granted it by the Constitution and am thereby protected by said government. An illegal immigrant, terrorist, etc., does not submit and is therefore not protected. In effect, they are not parties to the contractual agreement between we the people and the government we created.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:35:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Backstop:
Fuck all that.

Border Jumper: Take me to your leader, I have rights as outlined by your BOR, Constitution, and these 2 Bazooka bubble gum wrappers I found.

Me: Yep, you've got rights. And right now, you've got the right to sleep on your back, because I'm putting you in the cell with Bubba.


Why are you putting him in the cell with Bubba?

To keep him for an undetermined amount of time? Or for a short time prior to his due process of law?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:35:07 PM EDT
Shouldn't illegals be considered POWs?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:35:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"


So we can invade countries where these rights are being violated in order to restore said rights to the people?
Cuts both ways.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:36:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stallion1:
Nationwide, that is the Declaration of Independence not the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNTIED STATES. If people want to use it to "declare independence" use it but your comparing apples to oranges. The founding fathers basically used that to tell England this is why then drafted the constitution to say these are our laws. How is this hard to understand.


So you are saying one part of our Founding Documents does not apply to other parts of our founding documents?



­

<­BR>

Do you work for BATFE???
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 1:38:22 PM EDT by Backstop]

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By Backstop:
Fuck all that.

Border Jumper: Take me to your leader, I have rights as outlined by your BOR, Constitution, and these 2 Bazooka bubble gum wrappers I found.

Me: Yep, you've got rights. And right now, you've got the right to sleep on your back, because I'm putting you in the cell with Bubba.


Why are you putting him in the cell with Bubba?

To keep him for an undetermined amount of time? Or for a short time prior to his due process of law?


Due process - however long that takes.

Everyone deserves that - even if it comes at the end of a bat.

I'll just come and say it, and I have to wonder if this is what you're looking for:

I'm all for disallowing some people the free expression of their rights.



The "with Bubba" part was just humor. You think I'm bad on the Web at humor, you should hear me in real life.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:37:37 PM EDT
Preamble of the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




The Constitution, and BOR is a contract between "We the People, the Government, and "our Posterity".


The Declaration explains the ideals that our Nation is based on, the Constitution is the law of the land.

I honestly don't understand the confusion.


Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:38:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"


So we can invade countries where these rights are being violated in order to restore said rights to the people?
Cuts both ways.


The argument could be made (and has been by Jorge Bushe), that the moral authority exists. Not sure about legal authority (that's a different subject).
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:39:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Preamble of the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




The Constitution, and BOR is a contract between "We the People, the Government, and "our Posterity".


The Declaration explains the ideals that our Nation is based on, the Constitution is the law of the land.

I honestly don't understand the confusion.




Then why does the document not say "All United States Citizens"?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:40:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 103:
One of the most basic principals of Locke's concept of the social contract is that only those who submit to the Social Contract are protected by it. Yes, all people are created equal and have equal rights--they however do not have equal protections. I submit to the authority of our government granted it by the Constitution and am thereby protected by said government. An illegal immigrant, terrorist, etc., does not submit and is therefore not protected. In effect, they are not parties to the contractual agreement between we the people and the government we created.


That's good enough for me.
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:40:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Fuck that shit. All men who are US citizens. The rest are invaders or guests. Guests get a fair trial under civilian law. Anyone seized upon the battle field and is a soldier is governed by military law. Anyone that is a spy or non-military combatant seized on the battle field should be shot on sight once their status is verified.

It is the Constitution of the United States. Not the Constitution of the Whole World.


"ALL MEN"

Not American men. Not patriots. Not colonials.

"ALL MEN"


So we can invade countries where these rights are being violated in order to restore said rights to the people?
Cuts both ways.


The argument could be made (and has been by Jorge Bushe), that the moral authority exists. Not sure about legal authority (that's a different subject).


The LEGAL authority came from 12 years of violation of the UN-mandated cease fire accords and disarmament agreements.

Are you that stubborn?
Link Posted: 2/10/2008 1:40:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2008 1:41:33 PM EDT by Stallion1]

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By Stallion1:
Nationwide, that is the Declaration of Independence not the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNTIED STATES. If people want to use it to "declare independence" use it but your comparing apples to oranges. The founding fathers basically used that to tell England this is why then drafted the constitution to say these are our laws. How is this hard to understand.


So you are saying one part of our Founding Documents does not apply to other parts of our founding documents?



­

<­BR>

Do you work for BATFE???
They are 2 separate documents. One that announced to the world we are independent and the other that gave that independence structure. It's what you do with those rights that makes a difference, if stealing makes me happy it doesn't mean I have a right to do it.
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