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Posted: 4/10/2015 9:12:13 AM EDT
Interesting article on it today:

http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2015/04/atf-classification-compromise-to.html

and Here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-classification-compromise-to-redefine-sporting-use-ban-certain-ammo-imports

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ classification of pistol grip only firearms with 14” barrels that fire shotgun shells and are over 26” in overall length as neither “shotguns” nor National Firearms Act “Destructive Devices” or “Any Other Weapons” has created a situation wherein the agency must either quietly save face or have it exposed that untold numbers of good faith gun owners currently legally possess firearms problematic for the government to allow. In order to allow that status quo to continue, ATF, in conjunction with certain members of Congress and lobbying interests, is working at “tweaking” its definition of the arbitrary “sporting use” term, insider sources tell Gun Rights Examiner. And with that will come a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types or presently legal ammunition."

This would also effect ANY pistol gripped shotgun, which according to ATF is not a shotgun because it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder....Are we talking millions of firearms and owners or just hundreds of thousands of them?

Anybody have any solid information on who in congress is pushing this?
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:13:59 AM EDT
Oh yes, the "sporting" clause of the Constitution.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:15:11 AM EDT
I wonder what JRZY has to say about this.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:17:58 AM EDT
Too many in circulation. The outcry would be worse than the M855 fiasco.

Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:18:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:18:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maleante:
I wonder what JRZY has to say about this.
View Quote

... or NYC for that matter
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:21:22 AM EDT
While unrelated, my 14" AOW is the only thing that cops seem to want to inspect when they see me shooting it at the public quarry. Something about a 30 year old cut up Mossberg really rustles their jimmies.

Almost half of the time, I get asked for papers while they waste my shooting daylight "calling it in".

I really think AOW's are the dirty step-child that the government wants to ban.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:22:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molotov357:
Too many in circulation. The outcry would be worse than the M855 fiasco.

View Quote



Exactly.

Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:23:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2015 9:26:05 AM EDT by HistoricArmsLLC]
My guess that is why the quiet deal to fix.

No institution could survive acknowledging they had ignored enforcing the law since 1968....
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:24:46 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
My guess that is why the quiet deal to fix
View Quote



It could not be kept quiet as NFA firearms have to be registered
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:25:53 AM EDT
Once again, the ATF creates shit out of thin air when the law is very clear on definitions.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:26:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peekay:
Once again, the ATF creates shit out of thin air when the law is very clear on definitions.
View Quote



How is the law clear on what is 'sporting'?
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:28:18 AM EDT
The ATF and it's "definitions" are nothing more than a joke and a hindrance on law abiding citizens.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:28:33 AM EDT
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:33:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?
View Quote


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:34:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?
View Quote


How much camo you wear... Or so I am told by the local guys driving lifted Toyotas.
The other answer involves how many sponsors you can have printed on your shirt.

'Sporting' really has no place in this argument of course (as you were suggesting), because honestly, I sometimes buy guns just because I think it would be awesome to own it and that it would be fun to shoot. I really don't think I should need a better reason than that.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:34:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?
View Quote

It's bolshit, is what.

The Second Amendment protects all arms, not just those for "sporting purposes."
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:41:49 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?
View Quote



How ever they want.

That is the point. "sporting purpose" changes with the winds.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:50:45 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mach:



How ever they want.

That is the point. "sporting purpose" changes with the winds.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?



How ever they want.

That is the point. "sporting purpose" changes with the winds.


I just reread the 2nd amendment. Couldn't find sporting purposes no where in there. Can you link it, because I'm having a hard time finding it in there.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:52:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2015 10:10:43 AM EDT by TheDevilYouLove]
Unless I am misreading this, they are not trying to get all pistol grip shotguns. They want to put an end to the 14" barrel non-NFA shotguns built on factory pistol grip only receivers with the shockwave grip. I've been debating between buying a factory Mossberg 590A1 AOW vs. building my own Remington 870 14" with a shockwave grip. I may just go the AOW route now.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/440753_Non_NFA_14_Mossberg_500_.html

In on one, this thread is prolly going places
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:58:44 AM EDT
I think the whole fascination with the pistol grip is Bullstuff. So you get an ergonomic keyboard for your computer=assault computer! Why does a grip have anything to do with it? The scanner at you local home depot has a pistol grip, OMG!! It's B.S. and we better let our congress critters know it.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 9:59:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2015 10:03:05 AM EDT by HammerHammer]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins


But what happens when there's a conflict between the scary "shoulder thing that goes up", and the "it's for the children" argument??

Like maybe a shoulder thing built entirely out of children's toys...



ETA: Ban high-capacity assault Legos, for the children!
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:01:16 AM EDT
Meh. Come and take it.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:02:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ost:
Oh yes, the "sporting" clause of the Constitution.
View Quote

FPNI.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:03:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:03:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:04:54 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peekay:
Once again, the ATF creates shit out of thin air when the law is very clear on definitions.
View Quote

Concur. there's so many of them out there. Calico came out with a fore grip for their pistol back in the late '80s/early '90s and the ATF said nyet!
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:05:31 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
But what happens when there's a conflict between the scary "shoulder thing that goes up", and the "it's for the children" argument??

Like maybe a shoulder thing built entirely out of children's toys...
http://i.imgur.com/EGg9ip7.jpg
View Quote


That triggers the Barney Frank provision, which states "any conflict in Feinstein points is pretty gay".

So in that situation your lego shoulder thing that goes out (of the closet) rates only 1 Feinstein but 100 MegaFranks, which equal 10 MegaFeinsteins... sorry, your lego stock is automatic for the people and not sporting for the children.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:09:38 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Modly:
While unrelated, my 14" AOW is the only thing that cops seem to want to inspect when they see me shooting it at the public quarry. Something about a 30 year old cut up Mossberg really rustles their jimmies.

Almost half of the time, I get asked for papers while they waste my shooting daylight "calling it in".

I really think AOW's are the dirty step-child that the government wants to ban.
View Quote



No, DDs are the dirty step children.

They just cant find a way to ban them without sticking it to all the WWII vets and re-enactors who like to tow their aging 57mm guns to airshows with old Jeeps.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 10:11:12 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:


But what happens when there's a conflict between the scary "shoulder thing that goes up", and the "it's for the children" argument??

Like maybe a shoulder thing built entirely out of children's toys...
http://i.imgur.com/EGg9ip7.jpg


ETA: Ban high-capacity assault Legos, for the children!
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins


But what happens when there's a conflict between the scary "shoulder thing that goes up", and the "it's for the children" argument??

Like maybe a shoulder thing built entirely out of children's toys...
http://i.imgur.com/EGg9ip7.jpg


ETA: Ban high-capacity assault Legos, for the children!



Thats hilarious! Imagine if they could make a lower entirely out of Lego?

Liberal minds would explode.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 11:02:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2015 2:53:03 PM EDT by HistoricArmsLLC]
Following the logic;

ATF in the FFL Newsletter states:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/261463668/Atf-Newsletter-2009

If a pistol gripped shotgun is "NOT" a shotgun, under the NFA it is a Destructive Device if the bore is greater than 1/2".

Given the numbers currently in private hands either made that way factory (or by the owners) since 1968, enforcement at this point is no longer an option....

So since 1968 untold numbers of NFA firearms (Destructive Devices) have been in citizen hands and public safety was not impacted....Hmmm If there ever was proof that some NFA firearms need not be regulated under the NFA, there it is.

Link Posted: 4/10/2015 11:14:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2015 11:14:34 AM EDT by TexasRifleman1985]
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
In order to allow that status quo to continue, ATF, in conjunction with certain members of Congress and lobbying interests, is working at “tweaking” its definition of the arbitrary “sporting use” term, insider sources tell Gun Rights Examiner.
View Quote

Okay, so which gun maker is selling us out?

And with that will come a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types or presently legal ammunition."
View Quote

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS MEAN?!? PANIC MODE ENGAGED!
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 11:31:41 AM EDT
Where's Nolo ?? wonder if any of this could be of use to him in the lawsuit ... Sure would be a finger in ATF/.gov's eye to have it brought up in court that in fact numerous unregistered DD's have been circulating in public hands for decades and nary an incident.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 11:44:48 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins





Link Posted: 4/10/2015 2:34:58 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leftytheking:





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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leftytheking:
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?


That would be a metric unit known as a "Feinstein".

Single Shot = 1 Feinstein

Magazine capacity less than 7 rounds = 1 Feinstein

Pistol Grip = 100 Feinsteins

Shoulder thing that goes up = 200 MegaFeinsteins








The definition of "Sporting Purpose" is whatever the AG says it is according to the 1968 GCA with some caveats to other laws on the books... Yeah, ATF does not want to go down this road unless they want us to take that section of law down just like is being done with the Hughes Amendment. Keep it up ATF, you're making our job just that much easier. Damn those tards have got to have battered spouse syndrome... they just keep coming back for another black eye and broken arm.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 3:10:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 3:13:45 PM EDT
all i can say is FUCK YOU ATF.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 3:23:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peekay:
Once again, the ATF creates shit out of thin air when the law is very clear on definitions.
View Quote


and once again the ATF wants to squander resources that should be better spent actually going after violent criminals.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 3:25:43 PM EDT
... I'm trying to build up one to look like this now, never have lied the pistol grip that came with it when I bought it

Link Posted: 4/10/2015 3:27:50 PM EDT
Pistol gripped shotguns are only useful for "sporting" purposes. They're useless for anything else
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 8:41:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2015 8:43:00 AM EDT by HistoricArmsLLC]
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2015/04/ssi-exclusive-negotiating-rights-away.html

Sunday, April 12, 2015

SSI Exclusive: Negotiating Rights Away. Cynical Secret "Deal With The Devil" Confirmed. NRA, ATF& bi-partisan group of politicians agree to save ATF from itself and widen the definition of "sporting purposes." "A hole big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."


From the press room of the NRA National Meeting, Nashville, TN: Sipsey Street Irregulars can now confirm the broad outlines of a story first disclosed two days ago by National Gun Rights Examiner columnist David Codrea. Last week, a secret deal involving the National Rifle Association lobbying arm and brokered by politicians of both national political parties was struck in Washington DC that would save the ATF from the political and legal consequences of its own regulatory errors. In the process, this deal would broaden the language of the 1968 Gun Control Act regarding "sporting purposes" and allow ATF to extract itself from the potentially catastrophic political damage of enforcing its arbitarry ruling that makes every owner of a pistol grip 12 Gauge shotgun like the Mossberg Cruiser a felon in possession of a "destructive device" subject to the penalties of the National Firearms Act of 1934 -- currently up to 10 years in federal prison and a quarter million dollar fine.

According to sources well-familiar with the legislative rationale and ever-changing amd even contradictory regulatory history of the ATF, this crisis for the agency was self-inflicted and precipitated by two legal cases wending their way through the federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania. Said one, "The ATF doesn't dare reverse itself unilaterally once again on what does and does not constitute a shotgun 'destructive device.' They are frightened to death that either case may go to discovery and reveal their whole sorry rule-making mess." Said another, "There are people currently rotting in federal prison on NFA violations and others walking around scot-free. At some point, unless the Congress gives them the cover by changing the law, they are going to have to explain that in open court."

As explained by sources here and in the nation's capitol, the outlines of what one called "this cynical deal with the Devil" are as follows:

1. The ATF will be let off the hook by broadening the "sporting purposes" language and legislatively negating their own determination that millions of heretofore legal pistol-grip shotguns produced over the past decades by companies like Mossberg.

2. The NRA will get to claim credit for, as one source said, "riding in out of the storm on a white horse and claiming to have saved millions of firearm owners from federal prison, even though," he added, "everybody in the room with an IQ above room temperature understands that politically and legally there is no (expletive deleted) way that ATF can enforce this ruling on anybody. They can't and they won't . . so" he concluded, "the NRA will claim to have saved their members from a boogeyman that never really existed."

3. In return for allowing NRA to claim the credit, the Democrats demanded another ammunition import ban on "specialty ammunition," to include tracers. Some sources agreed that this last "gimme" was a "throwaway," in the words of one. "Look, their M.O. is to always demand more than they know they can get in to get the thing they really value. They'd like to get it but what they really covet is knocking a bigger hole in the Constitution by (widening the 'sporting purposes' language) . . . this deal will give them one big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."

This reporter could get no one from NRA national leadership to go on or off the record to confirm this deal, but other sources familiar with the internal fallout of these revelations say that David Codrea's original story was "spot on," adding "they can't believe they were found out." Other sources in the nation's capitol indicate that the deal was intended to be kept secret until it could be attached as a innocuous rider at the last moment to a "must-pass" appropriations bill. Said one: "The plan was to pass it, claim victory on all sides, and pray that no one noticed the 'sporting purposes tweak.'"

He added: "What they're really frightened about is how you guys found out about this so soon. That's got them rattled." Added another, "they're looking for your sources and looking at each other and wondering who the snitch is." There is much behind-the-scenes speculation here as to how members of the NRA will react, what answers they will demand, and how these revelations will play into the Wayne LaPiere-Chris Cox rivalry for power. It is no secret to the insiders I talked to that there is little love lost between the two and much mutual suspicion of motives. Said one: "The key thing is, was this Cox's baby alone or did he get Wayne's signoff?" And, he added, "who's going to be manuevered into taking the blame for it?" Other sources tell this reporter that some very hard questions are going to be asked of Cox and LaPierre by board members in the coming days.

If so, that will be more reaction than that shown by the so-called "mainstream gun rights press" in evidence in the NRA pressroom. Since David Codrea's story broke two days ago, they have been, as near as this reporter could tell, studiously, deliberately incurious about the implications of these revelations. Copies of David's story have been distributed to them since it broke and most seem to have ignored it and few asked me any questions about it.

What reaction NRA leadership had to Codrea's original story could only be gleaned by second-hand sources, but one said that "what they're telling anybody who asks is that you're both crazy sonsabitches who are making this up. . . You two are not their favorite people right now." I asked another source, "Are they mad because the story is right, or mad because it's wrong." "They're mad," he said with a grin, "because it's right."

So, in the midst of non-denial denials and ad hominem attacks, we will continue to try to drill down to the truth as we can, this last day of the NRA national meeting of 2015.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 8:47:18 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jinxsters:


I just reread the 2nd amendment. Couldn't find sporting purposes no where in there. Can you link it, because I'm having a hard time finding it in there.
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Originally Posted By Jinxsters:
Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
How do you measure "sporting purposes" anyway? What unit of measure?



How ever they want.

That is the point. "sporting purpose" changes with the winds.


I just reread the 2nd amendment. Couldn't find sporting purposes no where in there. Can you link it, because I'm having a hard time finding it in there.

/thread
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 8:52:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2015 8:57:53 AM EDT by jaqufrost]
The 14" non-AOW guns are already destructive devices. Let's review the pertinent definitions from 18 US code section 921:

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

Here we can see they have a bore over half an inch. Most people say - but they're shotguns and shotguns are exempt! Unfortunately they're not shotguns - lets review the definition of a shotgun:

(5) The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Shotguns are intended to be fired from the shoulder. These are not shoulder fired (and never were) which is how people are getting out of the SBS regulation. Unfortunately the ATF cannot legally exempt them because ATF can only legally exempt shotguns - and they don't meet the legal definition of a shotgun


I won't own one, because even though ATF has issued a letter stating they are not NFA weapons, they didn't have the legal authority to change the underlying law.

In case anyone wants to read the actual law and find any errors I've made - here is the full text: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

All that said - it's all an infringement and needs to go. I'm not going to write a letter to ATF and notify them of their error. I would not be surprised if we see an amnesty from this in a few years.

ETA: And yes, a barrel over 18" doesn't make a difference. DD's don't have a barrel length limit. Mossberg has been selling factory DD's for years as title 1 firearms and no one realized it.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:01:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2015 9:02:31 AM EDT by HistoricArmsLLC]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
The 14" non-AOW guns are already destructive devices. Let's review the pertinent definitions from 18 US code section 921:

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and


Here we can see they have a bore over half an inch. Most people say - but they're shotguns and shotguns are exempt! Unfortunately they're not shotguns - lets review the definition of a shotgun:


(5) The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Shotguns are intended to be fired from the shoulder. These are not shoulder fired (and never were) which is how people are getting out of the SBS regulation. Unfortunately the ATF cannot legally exempt them because ATF can only legally exempt shotguns - and they don't meet the legal definition of a shotgun




I won't own one, because even though ATF has issued a letter stating they are not NFA weapons, they didn't have the legal authority to change the underlying law.


In case anyone wants to read the actual law and find any errors I've made - here is the full text: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


All that said - it's all an infringement and needs to go. I'm not going to write a letter to ATF and notify them of their error. I would not be surprised if we see an amnesty from this in a few years.
View Quote


When the ATF made the distinction in their news letter:

ALL pistol gripped shotguns regardless of OAL or Barrel length would be by definition a Destructive Device under the NFA if the bore diameter is more than 1/2"....Since the ATF claims they are not shotguns.

Quite a conundrum.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:05:36 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:


When the ATF made the distinction in their news letter:

ALL pistol gripped shotguns regardless of OAL or Barrel length would be by definition a Destructive Device under the NFA if the bore diameter is more than 1/2"....Since the ATF claims they are not shotguns.

Quite a conundrum.
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Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
SNIP


When the ATF made the distinction in their news letter:

ALL pistol gripped shotguns regardless of OAL or Barrel length would be by definition a Destructive Device under the NFA if the bore diameter is more than 1/2"....Since the ATF claims they are not shotguns.

Quite a conundrum.
I went and read the law about a year or two ago when the 14" barreled non-nfa shotgun craze kicked off. That's when I realized ATF had made a mistake and per the law they couldn't exempt them. I pointed it out to the guys then, but no one listened. I figured it was a matter of time until ATF realized their mistake.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:06:45 AM EDT
"arbitrary and capricious"


Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:08:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
Interesting article on it today:

http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2015/04/atf-classification-compromise-to.html

and Here:

http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-classification-compromise-to-redefine-sporting-use-ban-certain-ammo-imports

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ classification of pistol grip only firearms with 14” barrels that fire shotgun shells and are over 26” in overall length as neither “shotguns” nor National Firearms Act “Destructive Devices” or “Any Other Weapons” has created a situation wherein the agency must either quietly save face or have it exposed that untold numbers of good faith gun owners currently legally possess firearms problematic for the government to allow. In order to allow that status quo to continue, ATF, in conjunction with certain members of Congress and lobbying interests, is working at “tweaking” its definition of the arbitrary “sporting use” term, insider sources tell Gun Rights Examiner. And with that will come a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types or presently legal ammunition."

This would also effect ANY pistol gripped shotgun, which according to ATF is not a shotgun because it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder....Are we talking millions of firearms and owners or just hundreds of thousands of them?

Anybody have any solid information on who in congress is pushing this?
View Quote


What I want to know is WHY THE FUCK is mossberg not mass-marketing a 14" gun?
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:09:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 999monkeys:
Pistol gripped shotguns are only useful for "sporting" purposes. They're useless for anything else
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I thought the "sport" was watching people shoot them.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:13:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2015/04/ssi-exclusive-negotiating-rights-away.html

Sunday, April 12, 2015

SSI Exclusive: Negotiating Rights Away. Cynical Secret "Deal With The Devil" Confirmed. NRA, ATF& bi-partisan group of politicians agree to save ATF from itself and widen the definition of "sporting purposes." "A hole big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."


From the press room of the NRA National Meeting, Nashville, TN: Sipsey Street Irregulars can now confirm the broad outlines of a story first disclosed two days ago by National Gun Rights Examiner columnist David Codrea. Last week, a secret deal involving the National Rifle Association lobbying arm and brokered by politicians of both national political parties was struck in Washington DC that would save the ATF from the political and legal consequences of its own regulatory errors. In the process, this deal would broaden the language of the 1968 Gun Control Act regarding "sporting purposes" and allow ATF to extract itself from the potentially catastrophic political damage of enforcing its arbitarry ruling that makes every owner of a pistol grip 12 Gauge shotgun like the Mossberg Cruiser a felon in possession of a "destructive device" subject to the penalties of the National Firearms Act of 1934 -- currently up to 10 years in federal prison and a quarter million dollar fine.

According to sources well-familiar with the legislative rationale and ever-changing amd even contradictory regulatory history of the ATF, this crisis for the agency was self-inflicted and precipitated by two legal cases wending their way through the federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania. Said one, "The ATF doesn't dare reverse itself unilaterally once again on what does and does not constitute a shotgun 'destructive device.' They are frightened to death that either case may go to discovery and reveal their whole sorry rule-making mess." Said another, "There are people currently rotting in federal prison on NFA violations and others walking around scot-free. At some point, unless the Congress gives them the cover by changing the law, they are going to have to explain that in open court."

As explained by sources here and in the nation's capitol, the outlines of what one called "this cynical deal with the Devil" are as follows:

1. The ATF will be let off the hook by broadening the "sporting purposes" language and legislatively negating their own determination that millions of heretofore legal pistol-grip shotguns produced over the past decades by companies like Mossberg.

2. The NRA will get to claim credit for, as one source said, "riding in out of the storm on a white horse and claiming to have saved millions of firearm owners from federal prison, even though," he added, "everybody in the room with an IQ above room temperature understands that politically and legally there is no (expletive deleted) way that ATF can enforce this ruling on anybody. They can't and they won't . . so" he concluded, "the NRA will claim to have saved their members from a boogeyman that never really existed."

3. In return for allowing NRA to claim the credit, the Democrats demanded another ammunition import ban on "specialty ammunition," to include tracers. Some sources agreed that this last "gimme" was a "throwaway," in the words of one. "Look, their M.O. is to always demand more than they know they can get in to get the thing they really value. They'd like to get it but what they really covet is knocking a bigger hole in the Constitution by (widening the 'sporting purposes' language) . . . this deal will give them one big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."

This reporter could get no one from NRA national leadership to go on or off the record to confirm this deal, but other sources familiar with the internal fallout of these revelations say that David Codrea's original story was "spot on," adding "they can't believe they were found out." Other sources in the nation's capitol indicate that the deal was intended to be kept secret until it could be attached as a innocuous rider at the last moment to a "must-pass" appropriations bill. Said one: "The plan was to pass it, claim victory on all sides, and pray that no one noticed the 'sporting purposes tweak.'"

He added: "What they're really frightened about is how you guys found out about this so soon. That's got them rattled." Added another, "they're looking for your sources and looking at each other and wondering who the snitch is." There is much behind-the-scenes speculation here as to how members of the NRA will react, what answers they will demand, and how these revelations will play into the Wayne LaPiere-Chris Cox rivalry for power. It is no secret to the insiders I talked to that there is little love lost between the two and much mutual suspicion of motives. Said one: "The key thing is, was this Cox's baby alone or did he get Wayne's signoff?" And, he added, "who's going to be manuevered into taking the blame for it?" Other sources tell this reporter that some very hard questions are going to be asked of Cox and LaPierre by board members in the coming days.

If so, that will be more reaction than that shown by the so-called "mainstream gun rights press" in evidence in the NRA pressroom. Since David Codrea's story broke two days ago, they have been, as near as this reporter could tell, studiously, deliberately incurious about the implications of these revelations. Copies of David's story have been distributed to them since it broke and most seem to have ignored it and few asked me any questions about it.

What reaction NRA leadership had to Codrea's original story could only be gleaned by second-hand sources, but one said that "what they're telling anybody who asks is that you're both crazy sonsabitches who are making this up. . . You two are not their favorite people right now." I asked another source, "Are they mad because the story is right, or mad because it's wrong." "They're mad," he said with a grin, "because it's right."

So, in the midst of non-denial denials and ad hominem attacks, we will continue to try to drill down to the truth as we can, this last day of the NRA national meeting of 2015.
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So NOLO's filings have the rats scurrying for cover? I like the sound of that, but why would the NRA step in to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? We need to put a stop to this B.S. and let the court cases proceed to expose the rottenness at ATF.

Expanding the "sporting purposes" clause is selling out future generations BIG TIME for some short-term short-sighted trade-off...not worth it!
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:16:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:


When the ATF made the distinction in their news letter:

ALL pistol gripped shotguns regardless of OAL or Barrel length would be by definition a Destructive Device under the NFA if the bore diameter is more than 1/2"....Since the ATF claims they are not shotguns.

Quite a conundrum.
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Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
The 14" non-AOW guns are already destructive devices. Let's review the pertinent definitions from 18 US code section 921:

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and


Here we can see they have a bore over half an inch. Most people say - but they're shotguns and shotguns are exempt! Unfortunately they're not shotguns - lets review the definition of a shotgun:


(5) The term "shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.


Shotguns are intended to be fired from the shoulder. These are not shoulder fired (and never were) which is how people are getting out of the SBS regulation. Unfortunately the ATF cannot legally exempt them because ATF can only legally exempt shotguns - and they don't meet the legal definition of a shotgun




I won't own one, because even though ATF has issued a letter stating they are not NFA weapons, they didn't have the legal authority to change the underlying law.


In case anyone wants to read the actual law and find any errors I've made - here is the full text: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


All that said - it's all an infringement and needs to go. I'm not going to write a letter to ATF and notify them of their error. I would not be surprised if we see an amnesty from this in a few years.


When the ATF made the distinction in their news letter:

ALL pistol gripped shotguns regardless of OAL or Barrel length would be by definition a Destructive Device under the NFA if the bore diameter is more than 1/2"....Since the ATF claims they are not shotguns.

Quite a conundrum.


Oops. I hadn't considered the implication of "not a shotgun".

Of course, I have always wondered how mossberg got away with a "persuader" in Waimarica anyway.
Link Posted: 4/12/2015 9:20:25 AM EDT
I just want to know who gave the NRA the right to negotiate?
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