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Posted: 8/7/2014 9:02:03 PM EDT
I swear.... Listening to some dude going on an on about how his El Cheapo AR is just as good or even better as a BCM, DD or LMT makes me go

Oh yeah, and according to him, none of these higher end AR's are as reliable or as accurate as his 500.00 AR....

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:02:38 PM EDT
Go the range and find out...

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:02:39 PM EDT
How do you know it's not?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:03:39 PM EDT
Well walmart does sell colts


Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:04:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Go the range carbine class and find out...

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Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:04:50 PM EDT
LOL.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:13 PM EDT

What makes a gun less better then the ones you mentioned?

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Well walmart does sell colts


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But everybody knows they are made cheaper and poorly just for Walmart!! they ain't like those colts your buy for $1500 at the cabelas!
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:

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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Go the range carbine class and find out...



Faggots still won't learn.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Well walmart does sell colts


View Quote

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:26 PM EDT
And the OP shoots a Sig...

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:05:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:07:15 PM EDT by Redarts]
Walmart sells some pretty nice Colt models, unless you're one of those buffoons who thinks they're getting guns made with seconds.

Originally Posted By 9mmRandy:

What makes a gun less better then the ones you mentioned?

View Quote


The price. That PSA with the FN parts? Yeah, it'll fall apart unless you burn an extra few hundred dollar bills in full view of it while making a prayer to Costa's chest hair.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:06:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By FreezinSig:

But everybody knows they are made cheaper and poorly just for Walmart!! they ain't like those colts your buy for $1500 at the cabelas!
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Originally Posted By FreezinSig:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Well walmart does sell colts



But everybody knows they are made cheaper and poorly just for Walmart!! they ain't like those colts your buy for $1500 at the cabelas!


Why do you hate capitalism?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:07:30 PM EDT
Wow.

Complex much?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:07:39 PM EDT
My Wal-Mart special is a Colt M4.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:11:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NoPowerInTheVerse:
How do you know it's not?
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This. Just like every once in a while DD or LMT will put out a bad rifle, every once in a while one of the off-the-rack type maker will put out a beauty! Also, most of those $500 AR's are still pretty good guns. Sure, the fit and finish might not be as good as the higher end makers, but most of them are reliable and accurate enough for most applications. At the very least, they're light-years ahead of the more affordable options from even 20 years ago.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:13:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
And the OP shoots a Sig...

View Quote


Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:14:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sigshooter3:
I swear.... Listening to some dude going on an on about how his El Cheapo AR is just as good or even better as a BCM, DD or LMT makes me go

Oh yeah, and according to him, none of these higher end AR's are as reliable or as accurate as his 500.00 AR....

http://i.imgur.com/0c5L56P.jpg
View Quote


Ironic username is ironic

http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Sig-Sauer-M400-Enhanced-Carbine-ODG-with-Rifle-Bag/21677318
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:16:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:17:21 PM EDT by wild_Texas]
Colt is not cheap.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:18:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Deadmeat3344:

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Originally Posted By Deadmeat3344:
Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Well walmart does sell colts




Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:18:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:

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Originally Posted By rightwingnut:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Go the range carbine class and find out...




This is exactly what I told him. His response was that he didn't need to, and the 250 or so rounds he has shot out of it the whole time he has owned it proves its reliability.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:19:19 PM EDT



Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:19:45 PM EDT
Budget priced AR's do not receive the quality testing and independent certifications that some of the higher priced ones do.

For instance, I've personally seen, owned, and read about DPMS parts with poor heat treating showing excessive wear. (Think bolt catch getting chewed up.)

Companies like Bravo Company sends their contractors very specific specification on their parts.
When Bravo Company receives these parts, they send them out for independent testing and certification to ensure that they do indeed meet their specifications.
Parts that don't meet Bravo's criteria get rejected, in some instances this rejection rate is over 50%.
Not many AR manufacturers do this.

Sure PSA get some of their parts from FN.
But what are PSA's specs, and how does PSA determine if the parts meet those specs?
Or does PSA just receive these parts and start slapping together rifles? (Sometime sloppily.)

They are all the same is one if the stupidest, most ignorant excuses to buy a low quality AR.
Would the same arguments be used when justifying purchasing a 1911?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:20:38 PM EDT
My walmart colt runs like a champ
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:21:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 999monkeys:


Ironic username is ironic

http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Sig-Sauer-M400-Enhanced-Carbine-ODG-with-Rifle-Bag/21677318
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Originally Posted By 999monkeys:
Originally Posted By sigshooter3:
I swear.... Listening to some dude going on an on about how his El Cheapo AR is just as good or even better as a BCM, DD or LMT makes me go

Oh yeah, and according to him, none of these higher end AR's are as reliable or as accurate as his 500.00 AR....

http://i.imgur.com/0c5L56P.jpg


Ironic username is ironic

http://mobile.walmart.com/ip/Sig-Sauer-M400-Enhanced-Carbine-ODG-with-Rifle-Bag/21677318


Not talking about the Colts and Sigs at Walmart. I used "wal mart special" as a general description. I am talking about the cheap ass 500.00 guns. And I shoot 550 series Sigs.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:21:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By FreezinSig:


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Originally Posted By FreezinSig:
Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
And the OP shoots a Sig...





Thread...not going as OP planned.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:22:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:22:18 PM EDT by cjscore]
Well now that we got that out of the way.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:23:13 PM EDT
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God damn right, I am.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:23:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:25:26 PM EDT by JimboJones1]
Don't even bother. I don't get invested in arguments like that anymore. I get way more satisfaction from agreeing with nonsense than trying to combat it. And chances are good if you're spending the money to go to a carbine class there won't be any fools there with crap hardware. Hell, anyone that has the money to spend $250-$600 on a class and then blow 1000+ rounds of 223 over 2 days is going to be in a tax bracket that allows them to buy better gear to begin with.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:24:12 PM EDT
You do know the parts from all manufacturers are 100% interchangeable right?

That is one area that I have never understood, take a common pool of parts, assemble 2 rifles, one you built yourself for about $400, one went to a "custom shop", and sells for $4,000, both are built with the identical same parts, in the identical same configuration, the only difference is the roll mark, what makes one 10 times the cost of the other?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:24:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:


Thread...not going as OP planned.
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Originally Posted By FreezinSig:
Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
And the OP shoots a Sig...





Thread...not going as OP planned.


Nah, actually I figured this was exactly how it was gunna go. The fags who hate on Sig would quickly show their faces.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:26:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By S_A_C:
You do know the parts from all manufacturers are 100% interchangeable right?
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DPMS parts are just as good as Colt parts, amirite?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:27:39 PM EDT
I buy shit I like. I buy stuff for various reasons. Fuck it, life is too short worry about how other people spend their money.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:27:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sigshooter3:


Nah, actually I figured this was exactly how it was gunna go. The fags who hate on Sig would quickly show their faces.
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Originally Posted By sigshooter3:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Originally Posted By FreezinSig:
Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
And the OP shoots a Sig...





Thread...not going as OP planned.


Nah, actually I figured this was exactly how it was gunna go. The fags who hate on Sig would quickly show their faces.


Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:27:54 PM EDT
So is your AR a Sig, OP?
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:27:56 PM EDT
BCM's summer specials are really tempting ...... I'm strapped right now but trying to think of what I can sell to fund another upper rec group

Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:32:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By S_A_C:
You do know the parts from all manufacturers are 100% interchangeable right?

That is one area that I have never understood, take a common pool of parts, assemble 2 rifles, one you built yourself for about $400, one went to a "custom shop", and sells for $4,000, both are built with the identical same parts, in the identical same configuration, the only difference is the roll mark, what makes one 10 times the cost of the other?
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The parts aren't identical. There's variations in tolerances and specs that each company sets. A batch of triggers may result in 1/3 getting rejected by Colt but someone like PTAC would use all the parts others refuse to use. What bolt BCM finds subpar might end up in a DPMS rifle.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:32:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By S_A_C:
You do know the parts from all manufacturers are 100% interchangeable right?

That is one area that I have never understood, take a common pool of parts, assemble 2 rifles, one you built yourself for about $400, one went to a "custom shop", and sells for $4,000, both are built with the identical same parts, in the identical same configuration, the only difference is the roll mark, what makes one 10 times the cost of the other?
View Quote


It's not quite that simple bud. It's build materials that are substituted in order to make certain price points for the end consumer. You may have a bolt carrier built out of something entirely different than what mine is built out of AND yours may under-go no testing or quality assurance at all. Sometimes cheap cheap parts, think China built stuff, can be so far out of spec it is no longer 100% interchangeable with good American made parts that are the correct spec.

Finally, there's not that big of a price gap. You can get a fantastic rifle for around $1000-$1500. After that you're going to be paying for rifles that come with lighter hand guards and smoother triggers, or smoother operating gas systems, etc etc. The "$4000" AR does have some flub and bullshit attached to it.. if we are talking about the "Costa" series rifle or other name-stamped-rifles. On the other hand there are $4000 AR's because they are wearing $1000 suppressor, $800 laser system, etc etc. You need to do the homework in order to figure out if you're getting added value or added performance for your dollar OR if you are spending it on a name. It's not always smoke and mirrors.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:34:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:40:02 PM EDT by criio1]
I have a DPMS I bought after the ban was lifted in 04 that has the following round count

1500 brown bear lacquer coated
1200 brass (lake city and PMC mix)
3000 tulia (having fun with the slide fire in that one)

Always oiled but never cleaned once with the ammo listed above.

Not one FT feed, or FTE, no broken components, and surprisingly no throat erosion. A few ammo related fail to fire on the tula I'll admit. But these had good primer strikes.

Recently cleaned the snot out of it and replaced the extractor and spring just because

I'd say my cheapo had a pretty decent run.

ETA. I'll add that the ammo listed above was fired over the course of a few years usually any 200-400 at a time besides the slide fire excursions.

ETA 2: not saying one is better than the other. I'm suprised the one I have took the abuse.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:35:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wintermute:
BCM's summer specials are really tempting ...... I'm strapped right now but trying to think of what I can sell to fund another upper rec group

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Agreed, I have more than I need or even want. There's still something tempting about getting a BCG and compensator thrown in though.. new bare bones BCM 14.5'' upper and then look on EE for a used rail system... MMM tasty.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:38:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 9:40:40 PM EDT by JimboJones1]
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Originally Posted By criio1:
I have a DPMS I bought after the ban was lifted in 04 that has the following round count

1500 brown bear lacquer coated
1200 brass (lake city and PMC mix)
3000 tulia (having fun with the slide fire in that one)

Always oiled but never cleaned once with the ammo listed above.

Not one FT feed, or FTE, no broken components, and surprisingly no throat erosion. A few ammo related fail to fire on the tula I'll admit. But these had good primer strikes.

Recently cleaned the snot out of it and replaced the extractor and spring just because

I'd say my cheapo had a pretty decent run.
View Quote


While that's good news and I'm not surprised by this, there are more (in general) rifles that don't run correctly from companies that have looser tolerances on all of their parts and or use different build materials as a whole. Not all test subjects are equal to your specific test subject. Also, I shoot steel a bunch, the lacquer coated steel bad-for-your-gun is all b.s. the real reason the steel cased stuff usually doesn't run as well is because it's either underpowered and sometimes won't cycle the rifle fully or its just not mechanically sound in its creation - missing a primer or some such thing.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 9:39:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanSoldier1989:
So is your AR a Sig, OP?
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550 series Sigs.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 10:03:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By S_A_C:
You do know the parts from all manufacturers are 100% interchangeable right?

That is one area that I have never understood, take a common pool of parts, assemble 2 rifles, one you built yourself for about $400, one went to a "custom shop", and sells for $4,000, both are built with the identical same parts, in the identical same configuration, the only difference is the roll mark, what makes one 10 times the cost of the other?
View Quote


See my post above.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 10:21:09 PM EDT
The problem is in the small parts like bolt components, trigger group components, and proper fastening (staking). I have not seen many issues with lowers or uppers themselves. But yes, problems do exist on those too. Rails out of spec, pin holes out of spec, etc.
Link Posted: 8/7/2014 10:31:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2014 10:32:02 PM EDT by csrevenant]
The other annoying bit is where they say their hesse is perfectly reliable. They dont mention they shoot it once a year.
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 12:08:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
The other annoying bit is where they say their hesse is perfectly reliable. They dont mention they shoot it once a year.
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I swear that guy goes dumpster diving over at DPMS and build his rifles off of rejects.
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 12:16:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sigshooter3:
I swear.... Listening to some dude going on an on about how his El Cheapo AR is just as good or even better as a BCM, DD or LMT makes me go

Oh yeah, and according to him, none of these higher end AR's are as reliable or as accurate as his 500.00 AR....

http://i.imgur.com/0c5L56P.jpg
View Quote



Admit it.

You have no clue what you're talking about, do you?
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 12:23:08 AM EDT
Because a logo determines whether or not you know how to utilize a torque wrench and a set of punches
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 3:44:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2014 3:47:23 AM EDT by dbrowne1]
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Originally Posted By mgwantob:
The problem is in the small parts like bolt components, trigger group components, and proper fastening (staking). I have not seen many issues with lowers or uppers themselves. But yes, problems do exist on those too. Rails out of spec, pin holes out of spec, etc.
View Quote


Things like gas key fasteners/staking and trigger group surface hardness have improved a great deal in the "cheaper" end of the market in recent years, in large measure (I'm sure) due to consumers becoming more savvy. There are still differences in the details, but they seem to matter less and less. I say all of this as someone who has nothing but Colt, BCM and LMT components sitting in my safe, by the way.

On the other hand ... when you go to a multi-day shooting class, sometimes what you learn is that even with an unfiddled Colt, a crappy magazine can ruin your day. MEAL - Magazine, Extractor, Ammunition, Lubrication - matter the most assuming your gun isn't a total POS. I spent an hour of "down time" and several hundred rounds of ammo one time, during a class, weeding through my magazines via live fire to identify and shitcan the bad ones. This was with a 100% factory Colt carbine.
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 4:01:16 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 9mmRandy:

What makes a gun less better then the ones you mentioned?

View Quote



He spent more money on his, it's gotta be better, right?

Seriously. Most of these guns make it out of the safe once a year if they are lucky. I bet a skilled shooter could walk circles around 90% of the "top-tier AR" owners with a basic franken-gun.

But that rollmark.... it's almost as important to an AR as the go-fast stickers are to Honda owners.
Link Posted: 8/8/2014 4:12:18 AM EDT
The cheap AR has replaced the sks, ar, mosin for the people who wont spend money on a quality name brand AR. For the longest time these people went on about how unreliable the ar was becuase all they had was a sks and feel the need to justify themselves. Its a whole new c and r type crowd. Dont get me wrong most of the ar's on the market are probably good guns its just people needing to justify to themselves that what they have is better becuase its what they have.
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