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Posted: 11/5/2010 10:59:03 AM EST
What this means is that if you buy an AOW smooth bore 12 ga and at some point you want to go to a title one weapon with an 18 or 20 inch barrel & put a stock on it it does not eliminate your AOW, you can do it legally in a specific order.



This is big news for gun owners who have AOW's or are buying them.



The AOW has to start life as a virgin receiver or pistol grip, the law from what I read never addressed what you can do after it is an AOW.



So we filed the request and got it done.
There are a few things to remember:



Never and I mean never install the full stock while that AOW barrel is on the gun.



To go to a title one non NFA weapon you remove the shorter NFA barrel.



You then remove the pistol grip



You then install the 18 or 20 inch barrel



You then install the full stock.



At this point you have in your hands a title one weapon and it is temporarily not in NFA configuration.
To go back to AOW you remove the full stock



You install the pistol grip



You install the AOW barrel



You now have back your AOW NFA weapon



 
We worked on this for a few months and we were lucky and we succeded.
Here is the proof form the tech branch we took a lot of heat over saying thois cannot be done.



The 14 1/2 inch letter is on the way too.







 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:08:26 AM EST
Informative.  Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:13:30 AM EST
Why would I want to do this?

I guess if you moved from NFA friendly to NFA unfriendly state it would be helpful, esp  when you went back to a NFA friendly state you go back to an AOW.

What am I missing?




ETA
Congrats on being right.
I remember your original post and all the naysayers.



Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:14:56 AM EST
Fuck the BATFE
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:16:02 AM EST



Quoted:


Why would I want to do this?



I guess if you moved from NFA friendly to NFA unfriendly state it would be helpful, esp  when you went back to a NFA friendly state you go back to an AOW.



What am I missing?
ETA

Congrats on being right.

I remember your original post and all the naysayers.
Because now you have an NFA weapon that has sporting and hunting uses too.

Now it has a lot of uses.







 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:18:59 AM EST
Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would I want to do this?

I guess if you moved from NFA friendly to NFA unfriendly state it would be helpful, esp  when you went back to a NFA friendly state you go back to an AOW.

What am I missing?




ETA
Congrats on being right.
I remember your original post and all the naysayers.



Because now you have an NFA weapon that has sporting and hunting uses too.
Now it has a lot of uses.


 


I like it
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:19:07 AM EST
Yes - State and local police departments what have a legally registered AOW can reconfigure the AOW in any manner the mission requires.


More equal.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:20:24 AM EST
I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?

If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:24:08 AM EST




Quoted:

I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?




AOW Transfer tax is only $5 vs $200 for SBS.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:24:26 AM EST





Quoted:





Yes - State and local police departments what have a legally registered AOW can reconfigure the AOW in any manner the mission requires.






More equal.
You missed the part about police dept


it says "that have legally registered AOW's"
 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:25:35 AM EST
thanks for the clarification.

Also, what is the 14.5" letter about?

Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:25:39 AM EST



Quoted:


I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?
there ia no 12 inch rule

The advantage is a $5.00 tax stamp for an AOW

$200.00 tax stamp for an SBS





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:26:43 AM EST
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1077741


Quoted:


thanks for the clarification.



Also, what is the 14.5" letter about?









 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:28:06 AM EST
Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?

If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?


AOW Transfer tax is only $5 vs $200 for SBS.


Does the paperwork go through any faster? If not, it seems to me that the extra $195 is worth not having to worry about any of the legal jargon.

Anyways, thanks for the info jrzy. Knowledge is power.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:28:52 AM EST
Thanks for posting this. I just sent my Form4 off for my Serbu Super Shorty.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:30:26 AM EST
Any word yet on the non NFA <18" barrel >26" oal shotguns?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:31:24 AM EST
so.. riddle me this...

you take your AOW to a sporting weapon profile. you case the weapon as required by law in the state you're going hunting in. the state doesnt allow AOW.

you get pulled over in the other state. officer runs the serial on your weapon (and i dont know if this is how it works.. ) will it come back as a registered AOW weapon?

are you in deep do-do?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:36:14 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?

If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?


AOW Transfer tax is only $5 vs $200 for SBS.


Does the paperwork go through any faster? If not, it seems to me that the extra $195 is worth not having to worry about any of the legal jargon.

Anyways, thanks for the info jrzy. Knowledge is power.


AOWs are things like cane guns that don't fit into a traditional firearm category.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:41:58 AM EST
Tag

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:44:09 AM EST
So, reconfiguring your shotgun in a way that avoids temporarily creating an unregistered SBS requires a procedure that could be characterized as a bizarre ritual.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 11:56:41 AM EST
That is very cool. Having that kind of versatility would be useful. So when are your secret wonder shotguns going to be revealed?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:00:43 PM EST



Quoted:





Quoted:

I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?
there ia no 12 inch rule

The advantage is a $5.00 tax stamp for an AOW

$200.00 tax stamp for an SBS



 


$5 to transfer an AOW.



The tax for manufacturing an AOW is $200, the same as an SBR or SBS.



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:18:38 PM EST



Quoted:


Any word yet on the non NFA <18" barrel >26" oal shotguns?


Coming soon

it's 14 1/2 " barrel , overall 26



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:20:47 PM EST



Quoted:


so.. riddle me this...



you take your AOW to a sporting weapon profile. you case the weapon as required by law in the state you're going hunting in. the state doesnt allow AOW.



you get pulled over in the other state. officer runs the serial on your weapon (and i dont know if this is how it works.. ) will it come back as a registered AOW weapon?



are you in deep do-do?

The NFA registry is not open to reg police inquiries.

But that does not matter

The gun is in title one configuration, it does not matter what it is registered as  





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:21:54 PM EST



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:




Quoted:

I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?




AOW Transfer tax is only $5 vs $200 for SBS.




Does the paperwork go through any faster? If not, it seems to me that the extra $195 is worth not having to worry about any of the legal jargon.



Anyways, thanks for the info jrzy. Knowledge is power.




AOWs are things like cane guns that don't fit into a traditional firearm category.
True but smooth bore 12 ga under 18" are AOW's too.

There are a lot more AOW's then you think.





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:23:49 PM EST



Quoted:


So, reconfiguring your shotgun in a way that avoids temporarily creating an unregistered SBS requires a procedure that could be characterized as a bizarre ritual.


No , just a specific order to avoid making an SBS by accident.

The real thing about this is , $195 difference in the tax stamp.

That $195.00 is a lot to some, little to others.

It could mean grocery's right?





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:24:32 PM EST



Quoted:


That is very cool. Having that kind of versatility would be useful. So when are your secret wonder shotguns going to be revealed?


After I pay for some advertising here.

I don't want to free load.



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:25:53 PM EST



Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:

I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?
there ia no 12 inch rule

The advantage is a $5.00 tax stamp for an AOW

$200.00 tax stamp for an SBS



 


$5 to transfer an AOW.



The tax for manufacturing an AOW is $200, the same as an SBR or SBS.

 
True about the MFG, but not as 07 FFL & SOT

We pay a flat $500.00 per year or $1000.00

We do not pay any Tax MFG any NFA weapon





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:28:03 PM EST
Congrats. Hoping you the same success on the next letter.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:35:28 PM EST
Quoted:
Fuck the BATFE

This is all I can come up with in response to this thread.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:43:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 12:50:06 PM EST



Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:

I'm still a little unsure about the term AOW. I gather from what is on the letter that an AOW is a: Concealable smoothbore firearm that shoots shotgun shells and has a barrel between 12 and 18 inches. Is this correct?



If that is correct, what is the advantage of going the AOW route over the short barreled shotgun route? It seem that with a SBS you do not have to worry about what kind of stock you have on it, and you can put any length barrel on it at any time. Am I wrong?
there ia no 12 inch rule

The advantage is a $5.00 tax stamp for an AOW

$200.00 tax stamp for an SBS



 


$5 to transfer an AOW.



The tax for manufacturing an AOW is $200, the same as an SBR or SBS.

 
True about the MFG, but not as 07 FFL & SOT

We pay a flat $500.00 per year or $1000.00

We do not pay any Tax MFG any NFA weapon



 


Ok, wasn't aware of that.  Makes sense.



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 1:06:42 PM EST
interesting.  thanks jrzy.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 1:35:57 PM EST
definately makes buying an aow more worthwhile.
next time i buy a shotgun, i will keep this in mind.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 2:31:17 PM EST
neat
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 3:31:16 PM EST
African, or European?


I keeed.  Good work.  I imagine this was a tad difficult.

Link Posted: 11/5/2010 3:37:14 PM EST
Soo as long as I can legaly own an AOW in my state, I can use said AOW (affter reconfiguration of course) for deer hunting, or anything else one would use a shotgun for?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 3:42:12 PM EST
Can you guys just take a minute and reflect on how ridiculous the gun laws are in the country?
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 4:04:21 PM EST
Quoted:
Can you guys just take a minute and reflect on how ridiculous the gun laws are in the country?


Look at it this way, if there were such a thing as common sense gun regulations wouldn't they be the same independent of locality? Instead we see different nations allowing different firearms with different legal loopholes with their politicians all claiming them to be common sense.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 4:11:47 PM EST



Quoted:


Soo as long as I can legaly own an AOW in my state, I can use said AOW (affter reconfiguration of course) for deer hunting, or anything else one would use a shotgun for?
There are a few things to remember:




Never and I mean never install the full stock while that AOW barrel is on the gun.




To go to a title one non NFA weapon you remove the shorter NFA barrel.




You then remove the pistol grip




You then install the 18 or 20 inch barrel




You then install the full stock.




At this point you have in your hands a title one weapon and it is temporarily not in NFA configuration.
To go back to AOW you remove the full stock




You install the pistol grip




You install the AOW barrel




You now have back your AOW NFA weapon




 





 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 4:14:02 PM EST
I see SERBU 870 shorties sell for almost $800.  Seems a little ridiculous given that the heart of the gun is a $150 receiver.  



Now that I must own one of these, where and how is the best way to procure one?  



I shot Lumpy's SERBU last year...very interesting shooting experience with the Nitro Mags he stuffed in there for me.  
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 5:12:04 PM EST
yes...now awaiting the second letter....
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 5:42:31 PM EST



Quoted:


yes...now awaiting the second letter....


I think everyone who has been waiting for the 14 1/2 " letter will be as pleased as with this one.

(i'm pretty sure anyway)



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 5:45:43 PM EST
Tag for follow up.

One thing that came to mind as I read this is my state doesn't permit me to own an SBS, but I can own an AOW.  I can see the utility in this, thanks for pursuing it.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 5:56:19 PM EST
Here is another point to keep in mind.  That NFA weapon may now appear to be a sporting title one weapon, but it is still an NFA weapon and must be treated as such, i.e. not crossing statelines and no unaccompanied access by others.  That receiver remains in the registry.  You could always put a standard length barrel on an SBR but it still was in the NFA registry.  I don't know of any states that ban NFA weapons from hunting/sporting purposes; they may regulate barrel lengths, magazine capacities, action types etc, but I have never saw where you couldn't specifically use a weapon because it was an NFA weapon.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 6:06:02 PM EST



Quoted:


Here is another point to keep in mind.  That NFA weapon may now appear to be a sporting title one weapon, but it is still an NFA weapon and must be treated as such, i.e. not crossing statelines and no unaccompanied access by others.  That receiver remains in the registry.  You could always put a standard length barrel on an SBR but it still was in the NFA registry.  I don't know of any states that ban NFA weapons from hunting/sporting purposes; they may regulate barrel lengths, magazine capacities, action types etc, but I have never saw where you couldn't specifically use a weapon because it was an NFA weapon.
This is not exactly true.

Although it is still an NFA weapon we are waiting for the answer as what are the NFA rules on transporting it across state lines while in a title one configuration.

We got an inkling into what the answer might be when we verbally asked :

"can a person who owns this NFA AOW lend it to a friend unsupervised while in the title one configuration"

The answer is the same as we got on an SBR.

If you put a 20 inch upper on the SBR AR it is temporarily not in NFA state, it can then be lent to a friend unsupervised.

We of course want to get this is writing.

But I think caution is always the best option when dealing with any NFA weapons.







 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 6:12:48 PM EST
Thanks.

Link Posted: 11/5/2010 7:51:11 PM EST



Quoted:



Yes - State and local police departments what have a legally registered AOW can reconfigure the AOW in any manner the mission requires.




More equal.


You failed to herp before you derp.



You also failed to read anything in this thread.



 
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 8:00:32 PM EST
hmm, this is relative to my interests.
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 8:34:54 PM EST
Quoted:
so.. riddle me this...

you take your AOW to a sporting weapon profile. you case the weapon as required by law in the state you're going hunting in. the state doesnt allow AOW.

you get pulled over in the other state. officer runs the serial on your weapon (and i dont know if this is how it works.. ) will it come back as a registered AOW weapon?

are you in deep do-do?


I'm pretty sure as long as it's in the in-state acceptable configuration and you didn't break any federal laws to get it in that configuration, they can't really be breaking any laws (IANAL etc)

on the ATF site, I remember reading somewhere that if you intend to have the weapon in a non NFA configuration for an extended amount of time you should consider talking to the ATF to have them remove it from the NFA registry.

seems to me that they are more concerned about it being in the specific configuration and they want the specific configuration registered
Link Posted: 11/5/2010 8:55:35 PM EST



Quoted:





Quoted:


Yes - State and local police departments what have a legally registered AOW can reconfigure the AOW in any manner the mission requires.




More equal.


You failed to herp before you derp.



You also failed to read anything in this thread.

 
Yep, page 2 of the letter says right there in Black & White that if the PD has a legally registered AOW they too can reconfigure.

Seems to me that makes LEO's and every day people the same in the eyes of the NFA tech/legal branch, right?





 
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