14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 1 of 22)

jrzy

Brothers In Arms

Joined Mar 2002
Posts 14554
EE Offline

PA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:13:51 PM EST

[Last Edit: 12/27/2010 11:54:17 AM EST by jrzy]

I will post proof in a couple of days.

Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's
a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip
it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form
4.

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from
the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26
inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)

It must be smooth bore too.

This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.

Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

I also have the answer for this.

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I have seen dozens of abortions.

My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year.

Got pretty rich doing it too.

Waveform Contributor Joined Jan 2010 Posts 1234 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:18:56 PM EST Cool
	Take me out into the black, Tell 'em I ain't coming back.

nick89302 Member Joined Oct 2003 Posts 4037 EE Offline IN, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:19:37 PM EST What?
	"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" -Patrick Henry

SuperSixOne Member Joined Apr 2007 Posts 4350 EE Offline KS, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:25 PM EST Originally Posted By nick89302: What?

NoStockBikes I keep my tinfoil under my cap. Joined Apr 2007 Posts 13861 EE Offline AGO	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:36 PM EST Is it a pistol or a handgun?
	He who has not tasted the bitter cannot understand the sweet. "Plus, I really wanted to blow stuff up, and they were willing to give me Hellfires." - CWO-2 Nicole Shuman

BUCC_Guy One shot, one miss. Joined Oct 2003 Posts 13733 EE Offline CT, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:48 PM EST What he's smoking... I wants it. - BG
	Student 1: "Mr. [BUCC_Guy], can you do a cart-wheel?" Me: "I can do anything you want, and more." Student 2: "Except attract girls."

Keith_J Veteran of Reagan Era Joined Jan 2001 Posts 53968 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:21:32 PM EST I doubt it.
	GD: Too much Chicken Little, not enough Gene Kranz.

FALARAK Member Joined May 2001 Posts 19818 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:01 PM EST Hmmmm
	Sorry about the mayonnaise, guys.

jal777 Joined Apr 2003 Posts 338 EE Offline IL, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:03 PM EST [Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:26:25 PM EST by jal777] Tagged. .

C-4 No Fate But What We Make Joined Mar 2003 Posts 24631 EE Offline NH, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:52 PM EST Join Date: Check Post Count: Check Ah, shit. jrzy may be on to something.
	Only The Dead Have Seen The End Of War. --Plato

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14555 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:03 PM EST Originally Posted By NoStockBikes: Is it a pistol or a handgun? nope a standard smooth bore shotgun
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

03rubicon Member Joined Apr 2008 Posts 597 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:51 PM EST tag

Renegade13B I have nothing to add Joined Jun 2006 Posts 7016 EE Offline OR, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:52 PM EST [Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:29:52 PM EST by Renegade13B] Originally Posted By jrzy: I will post proof in a couple of days. DAY 1
	Ten people have taken the bait [img]icon_smile_wink.gif[/img]

whiskerz bad example Joined Mar 2001 Posts 4519 EE Offline GA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:25:17 PM EST pm sent .
	A Deagle without beams is like a Caprice without 24's

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14556 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:25:18 PM EST Originally Posted By Keith_J: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet?
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

TecRsq Member Joined Jun 2005 Posts 2884 EE Offline GA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:26:50 PM EST In for the head spinning.
	"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)

andrasik Don't tax me bro! Joined Jul 2006 Posts 10523 EE Offline KS, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:27:36 PM EST Interesting. Consider this a tag.
	I am merely giving you a warning. Those who wish to deal with me, must do so on my terms or not at all. I do not make terms with incompetence.

Morne Joined Feb 2008 Posts 511 EE Offline OH, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:29:06 PM EST Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

Cypher15 Member Joined May 2007 Posts 9520 EE Offline MD, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:29:11 PM EST black powder, pistol, 1898 or older, etc..
	Coyote with 40 people crammed into a minivan gets into a chase with DPS, Paco over estimates his driving abilities and whmmo! the Astrovan of Immigration becomes a Pinata of Pain, hurling broken bodies like so many tasty pieces of cheap candy...

Cypher15 Member Joined May 2007 Posts 9521 EE Offline MD, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:30:04 PM EST Originally Posted By Morne: Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh. "not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4" dont sbs' also require one of those forms?
	Coyote with 40 people crammed into a minivan gets into a chase with DPS, Paco over estimates his driving abilities and whmmo! the Astrovan of Immigration becomes a Pinata of Pain, hurling broken bodies like so many tasty pieces of cheap candy...

ALASKANFIRE Member Joined Jul 2007 Posts 4147 EE Offline NV, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:30:06 PM EST Would like to see how this plays out
	SevenMaryThree: That old adage "everyone gets cut in a kniife fight" applies to turtle fighting too ANIMUS Rude pricks need a serious traumatic life experience

Rob762 Shiny Barrel Joined Aug 2005 Posts 1699 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:31:18 PM EST Originally Posted By jrzy: Originally Posted By Keith_J: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this
	You can still get gas in heaven, and drink in kingdom come

SightsOnTarget Likes dem Glock fotays Joined Feb 2009 Posts 705 EE Offline FL, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:32:25 PM EST BRB, I'm gonna go take a hacksaw to my 870 barrel. An ARFCOMMER said it's ok, so I know I won't get in trouble. The internet said so.

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14557 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:12 PM EST [Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:37:29 PM EST by jrzy] Originally Posted By Morne: Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh. Nope , it cannot have a full stock or it would be an SBS and a title 2 weapon. This is a straight up walk into your gun shop and buy it on a 4473
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

MattelFromHell Member Joined Oct 2008 Posts 493 EE Offline WA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:25 PM EST This interests me greatly.

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14558 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:28 PM EST Originally Posted By Cypher15: black powder, pistol, 1898 or older, etc.. nope
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

SGTCap Member Joined Feb 2006 Posts 5958 EE Offline GA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:39 PM EST off to find the OP in the "thursday night what ya drinkin" thread
	"Tomorrow maybe skinny dip in the Yellowstone river or swing from the chandelier in the Playboy mansion, but today a Vortex 6liter V-8 a box full of hollow points and Lord willing a GD Twinkie. Gotta enjoy the little things. " -Zombieland

badeffect10 Member Joined Aug 2003 Posts 3763 EE Offline GA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:35:10 PM EST This should be interesting.
	Revenge is a dish best served cold!

crowdlg Black Rifle Disease Enabler Joined Oct 2007 Posts 3609 EE Offline VA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:35:21 PM EST ATF troll account??????
	Member of the ZEADS, Zombie Extermination And Disposal Specialist, Motor T

jrzy

Brothers In Arms

Joined Mar 2002
Posts 14559
EE Offline

PA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rob762:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this

I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF

This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I have seen dozens of abortions.

My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year.

Got pretty rich doing it too.

45-Longslide Joined Jul 2007 Posts 4143 EE Offline NH, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:09 PM EST Originally Posted By SightsOnTarget: BRB, I'm gonna go take a hacksaw to my 870 barrel. An ARFCOMMER said it's ok, so I know I won't get in trouble. The internet said so. Ok, Randy...

snowcrab cranky crustacean Joined May 2009 Posts 191 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:19 PM EST Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting.....

Morne

Joined Feb 2008
Posts 512
EE Offline

OH, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By Morne:
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

"not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4"

dont sbs' also require one of those forms?

Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference.

The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference.

TapperMan

Joined Sep 2001
Posts 1192
EE Offline

WI, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:38:32 PM EST

I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.

SHIVAN Member Joined Jun 2002 Posts 30841 EE Offline VA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:38:54 PM EST I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.
	"Listen! Your ass is about to be missin'! You know who gonna find you? Some old man fishin'!"

jrzy

Brothers In Arms

Joined Mar 2002
Posts 14560
EE Offline

PA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:39:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By snowcrab:

Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!

interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from
the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26
inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)

It must be smooth bore too.

This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.

Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I have seen dozens of abortions.

My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year.

Got pretty rich doing it too.

ISED8U ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Joined Jan 2005 Posts 3567 EE Offline AR, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:18 PM EST Hide your dog.....I'm just sayin.
	NRA lifetime member

jrzy

Brothers In Arms

Joined Mar 2002
Posts 14561
EE Offline

PA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Morne:

Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By Morne:

Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

"not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4"

dont sbs' also require one of those forms?

Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference.

The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference.

There is no NFA tax to be paid because thus will be a title one weapon the same as any other shotgun off the rack

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I have seen dozens of abortions.

My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year.

Got pretty rich doing it too.

photokirk BBQ Nerd Joined Mar 2004 Posts 9320 EE Offline TX, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:58 PM EST IN.
	posted by fsk1290: "You cook BBQ dude. That's it. Big whoop. That ain't hard, all ya need is a good fire and a themometer. and slop some sauce over it... I"m sure it tastes so much better then the 12,825,964 OTHERS out there......"

Keith_J

Veteran of Reagan Era

Joined Jan 2001
Posts 53969
EE Offline

TX, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:41:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

Are you sure?

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"

means a shotgun having one or

more barrels less than eighteen inches

in length and any weapon made from a

shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,

or otherwise) if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less

than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

GD: Too much Chicken Little, not enough Gene Kranz.

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14562 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:10 PM EST Originally Posted By SHIVAN: I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once. Drama llama? I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet. But it's coming smart ass
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

UncleJerr Joined Nov 2009 Posts 5 EE Offline NE, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:35 PM EST [Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:43:36 PM EST by UncleJerr] i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the forgive me father Judge revolver ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs

SHIVAN

Member

Joined Jun 2002
Posts 30842
EE Offline

VA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

Are you sure?

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"

means a shotgun having one or

more barrels less than eighteen inches

in length and any weapon made from a

shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,

or otherwise) if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less

than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

I'm betting that the other guy who mentioned it wasn't a shotgun to begin with but rather a "firearm" might be right.

"Listen! Your ass is about to be missin'! You know who gonna find you? Some old man fishin'!"

whiskerz

bad example

Joined Mar 2001
Posts 4522
EE Offline

GA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:43:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By TapperMan:
I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.

I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun

A Deagle without beams is like a Caprice without 24's

SHIVAN

Member

Joined Jun 2002
Posts 30843
EE Offline

VA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:43:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.

Drama llama?

I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet.

But it's coming smart ass

I'm tracking, drama llama, you could have just waited until it was there.

"Listen! Your ass is about to be missin'! You know who gonna find you? Some old man fishin'!"

C-4

No Fate But What We Make

Joined Mar 2003
Posts 24632
EE Offline

NH, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By snowcrab:
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!

interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.

So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"?

Only The Dead Have Seen The End Of War. --Plato

Silence Joined Feb 2001 Posts 16642 EE Offline SUR	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:15 PM EST Originally Posted By jrzy: Originally Posted By NoStockBikes: Is it a pistol or a handgun? nope a standard smooth bore shotgun Firearm

jrzy

Brothers In Arms

Joined Mar 2002
Posts 14563
EE Offline

PA, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

I doubt it.

I'll tell you what

I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong

If you're wrong you do the same.

Bet?

Are you sure?

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"

means a shotgun having one or

more barrels less than eighteen inches

in length and any weapon made from a

shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,

or otherwise) if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less

than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

We have a bet or not keith ?

The Tech branch letter posted by me once it arrves will suffice for proof as long as it states what I said in the top post, bet?

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I have seen dozens of abortions.

My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year.

Got pretty rich doing it too.

jrzy Brothers In Arms Joined Mar 2002 Posts 14564 EE Offline PA, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:46:04 PM EST Originally Posted By UncleJerr: i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the forgive me father Judge revolver ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs wrong, nothing to do with it, the judge is a pistol, it has a rifled barrel
	Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN: I have seen dozens of abortions. My father is a retired doctor that performed about 1000 abortions a year. Got pretty rich doing it too.

Morne

Joined Feb 2008
Posts 513
EE Offline

OH, USA

Posted: 8/12/2010 5:46:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?

Are you sure?
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
means a shotgun having one or
more barrels less than eighteen inches
in length and any weapon made from a
shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
or otherwise) if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less
than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

It could be a .410 to skirt the DD classification, ya know...

TZLVredmist Registered Loser Joined Dec 2003 Posts 3010 EE Offline ID, USA	Posted: 8/12/2010 5:47:03 PM EST Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 14 1/2 inch Shotgun not an AOW ? LETTER ARRIVED 12/27 Pg21 (Page 1 of 22)

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