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9/17/2020 5:59:48 PM
Posted: 7/4/2015 5:19:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2015 5:19:06 PM EDT by Lancelot]
I searched the forums and surprisingly no one has talked about this before
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 3:08:42 PM EDT
the trigger...
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 3:25:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chokeoloko:
the trigger...
View Quote

The person behind the trigger...

I would just start with a good basic AR and then go to the competition, learn from it, then modify as needed.
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 3:31:13 PM EDT
It's the gunner that's competing, the rifle needs to fit his/her specific strengths and weaknesses. As for the trends well, were inundated with them every day so id rather not repeat them. Hint goofy stances and canted sights. Barf.
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 3:34:55 PM EDT
Light and balanced (not to be confused with a lightweight AR).



Combination of a muzzle brake, fine tuned gas block and ammo, and buffer components to minimize as much kick as possible while maintaining a firearm that function flawlessly, and a trigger that is light and crisp.
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 4:39:37 PM EDT
I've shot a lot of 3gun. Reliability must be 100%. Free float rail, good trigger. Optic must be suitable for range you're at. My normal match goes from 25ish yards to 125ish yards for rifle. I use a Leupold 1.75-6x. 1-6 or 1-8 is great, but pricey (I'm cheap, the Leupold was $399).
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 4:53:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2015 5:09:17 PM EDT by Couch-Commando]
1) 16-20'' barrel. Midlength or rifle gas system depending on barrel length. This makes a pretty big difference in making the recoil pulse more mild, compared to a carbine length gas system. I find that chrome lined barrels work just fine, but most will prefer a stainless match barrel in a medium weight contour.
2) Free float tube. Get something light weight. I'd go with a JP precision tube.



3) Smooth trigger. A light, smooth single stage is probably best. I prefer a two stage, but I'm odd like that.



4) Comfortable stock with good cheek weld. I like the A1 stock, but there are tons of options. Whatever you find most comfortable.



5) Muzzle brake. The choice of brake depends on which division you intend to shoot. The JM brake works well and is cheap, though loud as hell. A good brake combined with a rifle length gas system will result in almost no muzzle climb. You have to try it to really understand how big of a difference it makes.



6) Optic. Use a 1-4x or 1-6x for the tac-scope/limited optics divisions.










In my opinion, an ideal 3-gun rifle should be well balanced. Here is an example. Pictured is Jerry Miculek.






















 
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 4:58:02 PM EDT
There's a 3 Gun Nation Link at the top and you can research a few things there.


3 Gun Nation Forum
Link Posted: 7/4/2015 6:15:43 PM EDT
Wow.. Now that I got bumped over and found this forum I see I have tons of reading to do.

What do you guys think about CMC triggers?

I'm scratch building and have only lower and barrel so far
Link Posted: 7/6/2015 12:23:31 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Threlpappy:
Wow.. Now that I got bumped over and found this forum I see I have tons of reading to do.

What do you guys think about CMC triggers?

I'm scratch building and have only lower and barrel so far
View Quote


For the price, CMC triggers are hard to beat. There are trigger I prefer over them, but they are at least $100 more. I personally use a Hiperfire 24C.
Link Posted: 7/6/2015 1:14:47 PM EDT

rifle length gas system shoots softer
good muzzle brake
good sights/or optics that match the sport
good trigger

This is what I built several years ago...



JP trigger
JP free float
JM brake
LARUE SPR-E
BURRIS XTR  1-4x ( older one )

Link Posted: 7/21/2015 3:05:25 PM EDT
AR Gold trigger...
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:43:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2015 12:44:55 PM EDT by JesseTischauser]
Link Posted: 3/10/2016 2:12:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2016 2:22:44 AM EDT by jonathan1994]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Light and balanced (not to be confused with a lightweight AR).

Combination of a muzzle brake, fine tuned gas block and ammo, and buffer components to minimize as much kick as possible while maintaining a firearm that function flawlessly, and a trigger that is light and crisp.
View Quote


Yup.

first.  its your gun.  If its just for games. great.  So is mine.  For dual purposes you get all sorts on conflicting lines of thought.  You can use a Mil-spec M4 if you want.

18" barrel with rifle gas system.  The weight does not matter as long as it is not BULL or HBAR.  All popular configurations on the market are good to go.  Rifle gas system is the best system for reducing recoil.  It has the lowest pressure pulse and more cooling time for the gas (insignificant).
16" is fine with either midlength or intermediate gas system and should run the compensator harder (higher pressure gas).  Don't use 16" CAR for a dedicated game gun.  

For SBR's get the longest practical gas system for your barrel length - Midlength 12.5", CAR 10.5" or 11.5".  AN INTERESTING NOTE - 14.5 MIDLENGTH HAS THE SAME DWELL TIME AS 18" RIFLE GAS.  Your still better off with 16" or 18" and skip the pinned and welded compensator.

Adjustable gas block REQUIRED - SLR or Syrac Ordinance.  Both are perfect.  Set screw models are just fine.

Good muzzle brake. JM is best for the money.  I use M4-72.  Straight baffles don't make as much noise as curved baffles IMHO.  The gunshow COPY of a JM is just a brain rattler for little benefit.

Short travel trigger that you can double tap fast.  Single or double stage is all preference.  I like Hiperfire.  AR Gold has a lot of followers.  I don't see the big deal on Geisselle 3G for the money, but I have only felt it at a gunshow.  Chip, POF, and many of the "ASSEMBLY" triggers are very good for the money.

Get a free float forend that fits your body.  Lightweight is usually better and round type tubes, not quad rails.  Most people like skinny rails so they can wrap their thumb over the top. SLR, MI, Samson, Etc etc.  15" Length fits most people just fine on a 16" barrel.  If you are over 6ft tall with broad shoulders, you might like the feel of a 16.5" rail on a 18" barrel better.   Stock length has a lot to do with it as well.  If you don't like to stretch your weak arm all the way to the front of the handguard, just get whatever you want.  It does not matter as much as practicing with what you have.

Any stock that fits you.  Fixed stocks are easier to get used to, but if you use a car style just try to keep it in the same position every time you practice and shoot.  Nothing longer than A1 length helps unless your a pretty big feller.   Most people run the stock close to their body.  To each his own. I stretch everything out so I can pull the gun tight to my shoulder.  Stock length, LOP, and eye relief / scope mount / front hand position on the rail are all linked.  Running a simple red dot will get you 200 - 300 yards steel targets and you don't have to worry about eye relief or position.  Most people like 1-4x or 1-6x scopes, but rarely turn them up beyond 1x.

1x scope usually have to be turned to 1.2 or 1.3 to look right. This depends on your eye relief and position.  Find a checkered or striped wall to check this.

Bigger pistol grips put less strain on the trigger finger.  I have nerve damage and don't like skinny grips.  I want my hand opened up as wide as possible while I pull the rifle into my shoulder. MOE K2+.  YMMV.

You generally want the weakest buffer spring set up that will strip rounds out and feed the gun reliably.  There is no place for mil spec buffer spring or extra power.  Reduced power are better (after all you have adjustable gas).  Trimming springs is iffy.  If you just have to cut something, start with a reduced power spring to begin with.  Adjust gas to fit.  JP SCS has the weakest spring on the market AND it is the most efficient as very little energy is wasted like on sloppy standard springs flopping and vibrating around in the buffer tube.  Gun shown buffer springs pull the exact same weight bolt forward and bolt back as Taran and some other 10% reduced power I ordered.  However, the Taran was smoother and less twangy (quality steel and coating). You can trim the $5 gun show springs without fear, the transfer what you have learned to others, or just save money with the gun show spring.  I am actually saying the cheap gunshow springs are better for 3 gun than mil spec because they are weaker.

gas block / bolt carrier / buffer / buffer spring is a SYSTEM.  I'm ashamed of the time I spent on the range with tools / parts / and occupied half the tables plus my wagons trunk with junk playing with different combinations.  I have made one gun that works great...awesome...and one that still does not run to this day (pushed the aluminum race parts envelope too far). I have learned what works and dont. ALL OPTIONS REQUIRED ADJUSTABLE GAS BLOCK AND TUNE JUST ENOUGH GAS TO CYCLE.  I recommend D below if you don't mind putting some money into a "game" rifle.

A.  Rifle gas, Aluminum BCG (6oz), Taccom buffer or Car with weights removed (1oz) and TRIMMED reduced power recoil spring.  This only barely functions BECAUSE of the rifle gas system.  The same set up will not work AT ALL in a midlength 12.5 with a can.  the carrier is still moving at least 30% faster than normal both back AND forward and while you can tune reliable extraction, it is hard to get the rifle to grab a fresh round before the carrier bounces off the buffer and changes direction faster than a politician near election.  This set up has NO advantage to heavier systems mentioned below.  It kicked no less and was picky and unreliable.  Theoretically it is beating the bolt/bolt cam pin connection to death to.  7 oz of reciprocating mass is too little PERIOD.  (used the least gas of anything)

B.  Rifle gas, aluminum BCG (6oz), stardard 3 oz buffer and a trimmed reduced power recoil spring.  You might have to trim even a reduced spring back to get the BCG to pick up the next round.  Just turning the gas up may not fix FTF as the BCG is still running at least 20% faster than normal.  Good mags are a must.. I would not try this with less than a RIFLE gas system.  Actually, I have tried this and while it can work great, I don't recommend it mostly because of the spring issues. Should be very tough on the bolt/bolt cam pin connection.  Does not move the sights any less than "C" below. 9oz of reciprocating mass.

C.  Rifle gas, aluminum BCG (6oz), JP SCS (3.5oz).  This is what I run.  The JP SCS is weaker and better than standard springs and runs much slower for reliable feeding (only about 10% faster than normal).  This moves the sights VERY LITTLE and is reliable.  However, there are cheaper ways to get here and ALUMINUM carriers are a pain and have a short lifespan.   I run my gas at the hairs edge for weak reloads and have had a few FTF where a fresh round was not grabbed.  Empty mag does not always lock bolt back.  M193 ammo or commercial ammo runs like a top.  I should really just add a click of gas for the weak reloads, but I am scared of leaving the gas too high for the aluminum carrier and hot loads as my rifle likes Superformance 53gr Vmax and I don't want to constantly tinker with the gas.  10oz of reciprocating mass.

D.  LIGHTWEIGHT STEEL BCG (8-9OZ) and Taccom buffer or Car with weights removed (1oz).  Reduced power recoil spring (maybe trimmed) Should work about like "C", but be MUCH more durable and cheaper.  I will be trying this on my 12.5 midlength with can soon.  I bet some people already use the set up with no trouble.  The Taccom rifle length buffer set up is probably a wonderful way into this system as the longer spring will have less push for slower action, and it is tunable. 9-10oz reciprocating mass

E.  LIGHTWEIGHT STEEL BCG and standard buffer + reduced power spring- no advantage over "F" below and costs more.  11-12oz reciprocating mass.

F.  Standard STEEL BCG (10-11oz) with Taccom buffer or Car with weights removed (1oz) and reduced power spring.  The poor mans way in the door.  Just buy a $20 spring, adjustable gas block, and pull the weight out of your buffer.  Stone cold reliable and durable, but still helps keep the sights in place.  11-12 oz reciprocating mass.

G.  standard is STEEL BCG (10-11oz) with 3oz buffer and commercial buffer spring.  13-14oz

H.  Mil spec is M16 BCG (11.5oz), H2 buffer, and extra stiff mil spec buffer spring.  Kicks, but works no matter what with any ammo.  This is how they rig those full auto rental guns that make you look like you cant hold a rifle.

I.  M16 rifle is 11.5oz carrier and 8.5oz buffer for 20oz total, but rifle gas system...hmmm...

I have tried "F" with 300 black and my hunting 6.8.  It works fine, but with the 6.8 there is more recoil to begin with and you can feel no effect on the shoulder and see no difference in sight movement.  With 300 blackout I can not tell about sight movement and see no benefit on a pistol.  "F" with 300 black was also hard to tune for both subs and super with 8" barrel.  So all this gas system mumbo jumbo above just applies to 223 game guns.  300black as a rifle or SBR might apply, but who would use 300 black for 3 gun $$$.

THE BIG TRICKS HERE IN ORDER
reliable
fits your body and shooting ability (we have a hard time admitting this one.  My gun is too light for me)
good muzzle brake
fast trigger - for the finger, not lock time
balanced feel and comfortable weight
adjustable gas block
weakest practical buffer spring
at least 10oz of reciprocating mass

You can cheat/game gas system parts more with a rifle gas system than shorter ones.  Cans are also belligerent with high performance goodies.  I know.  Go fast hardware likes shorter dwell times, but cans INTRODUCE artificial gas pressure and dwell time that throws off that ragged edge.

By the way.. I am no pro.  I am not even good.  I'm mechanical and enjoy building, tinkering, thinking, and analyzing just as much as shooting.  I have much time for the first 4, but not much for the shooting part.
Link Posted: 4/26/2016 11:36:33 AM EDT
Good post.
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