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Posted: 2/11/2006 6:09:37 AM EDT
had a tacstar tube on a 1100, and it was so thin that it got dented just by a passing bounce off a shooting bench, everyone there couldnt believe it happened, while it was fixable, I went extra and found some steel tubing to sleeve over it to make it tougher,
was looking at buying another extension tube, but have not found anything but tacstar and choats,

anyone else making them things,(maybe heavier) this would be a 3 or 4 shot tube extension

any ideas?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:01:42 AM EDT
wilsoncombat.com $45
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:41:57 PM EDT
Hans Vang makes one from solid bar stock.

https://www.vangcomp.com/accessories.html
Price...$75.00.

Just remember, use a barrel clamp. How strong the extension is doesn't matter, a good bump will knock it off the gun's thin magazine tube.

Other than the Remington factory clamp, the near-exact copy made by Uncle Mike's is the best one made.
www.unclemikes.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=9004490&catky=1465723&subcatky1=4548843&subcatky2=2000180
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:58:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
Hans Vang makes one from solid bar stock.

https://www.vangcomp.com/accessories.html
Price...$75.00.

Just remember, use a barrel clamp. How strong the extension is doesn't matter, a good bump will knock it off the gun's thin magazine tube.

Other than the Remington factory clamp, the near-exact copy made by Uncle Mike's is the best one made.
www.unclemikes.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=9004490&catky=1465723&subcatky1=4548843&subcatky2=2000180



Does the Vang unit come with a barrel clamp?

SM
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:28:48 PM EDT
No, you'll have to buy one.

See the above link to the Uncle Mike's copy of the Remington factory model.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:45:36 PM EDT
I find it curious that Vang Comp and Scattergun Technologies...2 of the most respected names in custom shotguns...do not endorse clamps for mag tube extentions, yet so many people on this board find them necessary. If they are so critical, why don't Vang and SGT install them on their custom guns?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:59:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tacman556:
I find it curious that Vang Comp and Scattergun Technologies...2 of the most respected names in custom shotguns...do not endorse clamps for mag tube extentions, yet so many people on this board find them necessary. If they are so critical, why don't Vang and SGT install them on their custom guns?



Because they are not necessary. About all a clamp does is give you a forward sling attachment point. A good mag tube extension does NOT need a clamp.

If you choose to use a barrel clamp, make darned sure that you shoot your gun with it installed to ensure that you haven't altered your point of impact. When a barrel starts to heat up, the clamp can contort the barrel and put things askew. Shotgun barrels normally move around some as they heat up, but a clamp can force them to bend/warp unnaturally.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:22:22 PM EDT
Just FYI I heard from an LE trainer that he had seen Wilson units break.

The Vang units are one-piece.

I have a Wilson and a Rem. factory unit.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:13:37 PM EDT
"Because they are not necessary"

Guess again. What you have with an unsupported extension is a ideally shaped device for breaking the gun's magazine tube.
IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW STRONG THE EXTENSION IS. It can be a solid steel bar.
It's still screwed to a thin magazine tube, that's further weakened by the deep square threads.

Give an unsupported clamp a good bump and it will bend out of line, or worse, blow completely off the gun. Invariably, the GUN'S magazine tube is damaged. This requires an expensive trip back to Remington to have a new tube brazed in and the gun refinished.

Can't happen??? Unlikely to happen????
Here's three cases I personally saw.

Case One.
A Remington 870P with a Wilson/Scattergun magazine extension. No clamp.
A local small town police chief got a silent (false) alarm at the bank and being the only man on duty, rolled on it.
Arriving at the bank, he stepped out of his car, grabbing the 870 out of the upright lock rack.
As he stepped out of the car, he bumped the extension on the door frame.
The extension blew off with such force, the car window was broken.

I'll never forget how he described the feeling, knowing he was likely going to be facing armed bank robbers, alone, with nothing but a six shot revolver.
The gun's magazine tube was deformed and the threads were stripped.
The Wilson extension was undamaged.
He returned the gun to Remington for a new magazine tube.

Case Two.
A Remington 870P with a Choate extension. No clamp.
I personally saw this one.
It was a shotgun training class for local law enforcement at my old range.
One course of fire simulated firing from behind the hood of a car, then stepping up and firing from the corner of a building.
The "car hood" was a low table, and the "building" was a standard PPC barrier.

I was watching as one officer finished firing his rounds over the table and reloaded.
As he stood up and stepped to the barricade, he bumped the extension on the wooden barricade.
This was NOT a hard bump.
The extension blew off with such force it flew over the 50 foot small bore back stop. The spring went nearly as far.
Shells were scattered all over the firing point.

I personally examined the gun immediately after.
The Remington's magazine tube was deformed and the threads were badly mangled.
The Choate extension had a small dent in the tube, but no other damage.
The gun was returned to Remington for a new magazine tube.

Case Three.
A Winchester 1300 with a Choate magazine tube. No clamp.
A local doctor kept the gun in his bedroom as a HD gun.
As he was closing a closet door, the gun slid sideways down a wall, and landed on a small wooden chest.
The extension was bent out of line, and was "hanging by a thread".
The magazine tube was deformed and the threads were damaged.
The doc sold the gun, and bought a Remington.

The bottom line on extension clamps is this: There is no valid reason NOT to use a clamp, and GOOD reason why you should.

I've heard stories about clamps affecting grouping with slugs. I've also heard from experts that the clamp actually IMPROVES slug shooting by the damping action of the clamp and the support from the extension.

Make you own decision.
While you do, I suggest taking a good look at that long tube sticking out, then take a good look at the end of the gun's magazine tube.
Then load 'er up, and give the extension a gently bump or two on something.
Then imagine a HARDER bump, just when you need the gun the most.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:05:38 AM EDT
damn dude you make it sound like the mag tubes are made of tin foil.
I run a clamp because I like the "look" however ive heard using one affects your POI when running slugs.
However once I change over to a Vang extension the uncle mikes clamp will find a home with my 870.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:57:04 AM EDT
The best ext tube is the factory Remigton tube, or the one from Tanks, which is a cpy thereof. A clamp is essential for support of the tube, as it is quite thin. If it were not necessary, why would Remington's ext have a groove turned in the ext tube for screw placement?

BTW, I wouldnt put alot of stock in what Wilson says is best for shotguns. The Scattergun Tech/Wilson of today, and the Scattergun Tech of a few years back are not even in the same league.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:25:32 AM EDT
When I first got my 870PM, I put the tip of the protruding mag extension into dry wall about ten times in a row. Nothing to bad, but I'd imagine it did test it's qaulity and I'd never consider it with out the mag clamp.

As for clamps, my barrel has a tiny bit of wiggle in it with out the clamp. However, the front half of the barrel is fine, and the wiggle is more located back at the receiver.

My barrel is rock solid with the clamp, more so than most any other used 870 I've seen. I looked at a brand new 870 Express with out the clamp, and after feeling mine, a clamp would be my very first upgrade.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 9:54:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
"Because they are not necessary"

Guess again. What you have with an unsupported extension is a ideally shaped device for breaking the gun's magazine tube.
IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW STRONG THE EXTENSION IS. It can be a solid steel bar.
It's still screwed to a thin magazine tube, that's further weakened by the deep square threads.

Give an unsupported clamp a good bump and it will bend out of line, or worse, blow completely off the gun. Invariably, the GUN'S magazine tube is damaged. This requires an expensive trip back to Remington to have a new tube brazed in and the gun refinished.

Can't happen??? Unlikely to happen????
Here's three cases I personally saw.




Good grief! That's enough to scare anybody out of even putting an extension on their gun to begin with!

It seems there were other forces at work in those instances.
Were the threads worn, or the magazine tube undersized?
Were the threads worn or the threads oversized in the magazine tube extension?
If any of the above is true, then yes, absolutely, the use of a clamp would be paramount. Heck, use 2 just to be sure!

So, what about the factory magazine caps? You know, the ones with the sling attachment point on the end? You sling the gun over your shoulder and hump through the woods all day. Tree limbs, briars, whatever, catch on the barrel and pull the gun as you try to walk. Does this prying/jerking action strip the cap from the mag tube and shells go flying? If the threads are worn, or the magazine tube is undersized, or the threads are worn or the threads oversized in the magazine cap, yes, the cap would be stripped from the tube, shells would launch into the air, and the gun would fall to the ground.

I have never had that happen, nor have I ever heard of it happening. Have you?

The point is, something was faulty, or poorly manufactured in your intances you cite.

Another question- would a longer, stiffer spring used in an extension be exerting more outward force when compressed on a mag tube extension, than a factory spring on a mag cap when it is compressed?

You have me extremely curious. I'm going to measure some mag caps and extensions to see if there are any anomalies.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:10:06 AM EDT
The tube is a very thin piece of steel, with very large, deep threads. This not normally an issue, but when you add the leverage of the extension, and the fact that the extension is oftehn thicker and stronge than the original tube, you can have issue if left unsupported. Its not a manufacturing defect, it is a fact of life. Get a clamp.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:19:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
The tube is a very thin piece of steel, with very large, deep threads. This not normally an issue, but when you add the leverage of the extension, and the fact that the extension is oftehn thicker and stronge than the original tube, you can have issue if left unsupported. Its not a manufacturing defect, it is a fact of life. Get a clamp.



So why haven't there been any magazine caps stripped from guns? If a 6" mag extension is adequate leverage as you claim, then a sling should rip the cap and tube to shreds the first time you get hung up in the woods/brush.

If it's not a defect, then these guns are not getting "bumped", they're getting slammed. There's quite a bit of difference.

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:24:42 AM EDT
The sling stud and a magazine tube ext are two completely different types of forces, the ext exerting a perpindicular to the tube, while the sling forces are inline witht he htreds, at its strongest point. Again, not a defect, just a result of the design.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 10:34:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
The sling stud and a magazine tube ext are two completely different types of forces, the ext exerting a perpindicular to the tube, while the sling forces are inline witht he htreds, at its strongest point. Again, not a defect, just a result of the design.



You don't spend much time in the woods, do you?

2guntom
454 Casull +
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:25:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:59:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 12:03:41 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
"The added length of the extension allows for a good bit more leverage"

And we have a winner.
The long extension simply provides more leverage that can break the extension off the magazine tube.

A sling attached to a cap has virtually no leverage since it's screwed down OVER the magazine tube and very little is above the tube to provide leverage.
I'd bet that the sling or swivel would give way long before the cap.
In 30 years in the business I saw the three incidents of the extension breaking loose, and I've heard several others from police officers and other gunsmiths.
I've never seen or heard a single case of a standard cap pulling off.

In the first two examples above, the 870P shotguns were fairly new guns so being worn or defective wasn't an issue.
In the second case, again, I personally saw the incident from just a few feet away, and the officer did not hit the extension on the barricade that hard.

In the third case, the doc's Winchester was in brand new condition, and had been test fired only, when he bought it.

Again, there's no good reason NOT to use a clamp, and some good reasons why you should.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 12:31:38 PM EDT by SPTiger]

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
"The added length of the extension allows for a good bit more leverage"

And we have a winner.
The long extension simply provides more leverage that can break the extension off the magazine tube.

A sling attached to a cap has virtually no leverage since it's screwed down OVER the magazine tube and very little is above the tube to provide leverage.
I'd bet that the sling or swivel would give way long before the cap.
In 30 years in the business I saw the three incidents of the extension breaking loose, and I've heard several others from police officers and other gunsmiths.
I've never seen or heard a single case of a standard cap pulling off.

In the first two examples above, the 870P shotguns were fairly new guns so being worn or defective wasn't an issue.
In the second case, again, I personally saw the incident from just a few feet away, and the officer did not hit the extension on the barricade that hard.

In the third case, the doc's Winchester was in brand new condition, and had been test fired only, when he bought it.

Again, there's no good reason NOT to use a clamp, and some good reasons why you should.



That's all that needs to be said.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:54:54 PM EDT
Ooh, thanks for the really big text, I couldn't hear them the first time.

So, in case one, the guy knocked out a car window?! He needs to calm down, take a paxil, and wait for backup. He hit that thing pretty dang hard to break a window. Yes, he definately needs a clamp, or maybe he should just go without a mag extension at all.

Case two, he didn't bump it hard? This is a 10lb shotgun here, not a paper towel tube. "Bump" with a dowel rod, and "bump" with a 3ft long 10lb object are two different things. Yes, he needs a barrel clamp, needs to calm down, and probably watch where he's going.

Case three, yes he needs a barrel clamp. Barrel clamps are much less expensive than gun safes or racks, or any other proper means to secure your firearm.

I'm glad that this was brought to my attention. My poor Remington was unprotected by not having a barrel clamp. Just in case my 870 comes in contact with a police cruiser window, I'm not watching where I'm going, or if I try to stuff it in a closet, I am now covered





Just to be sure, and for maximum protection, I used 3 different brands. Starting at the base (right to left) are 2 ATI clamps, followed by 2 Choate clamps, then 2 Uncle Mike's clams, and since I still had room I put on one more ATI. If I use my extended choke, I might be able to get another clamp on; I'm not sure how that choke tube will fare if I bump it so it probably needs a clamp too.

If anybody needs clamps, I've got plenty more
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:03:18 PM EDT
Here is another question regarding magazine tubes and clamps now that we have such a lively discussion. The Remington tube is notched for the clamp screw. Aftermarket tubes (SGT, Vang, TacStar, Choate, etc.) are not notched. Is their room for the screw to go between the tube and the barrel on the aftermarket tubes? If so, why is the factory tube notched?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:17:00 PM EDT
"He needs to calm down, take a paxil, and wait for backup. He hit that thing pretty dang hard to break a window".

A. This was in a tiny little town. THERE WAS NO BACKUP. The nearest responding unit was a Highway Patrol car 40 minutes away.
You try calming down and taking a Paxil when you're the ONLY one on the spot, armed with a six shot revolver, and very possibly facing 2 or 3 bad guys likely to be armed with shotguns or rifles.

B. He didn't hit the car window. The extension blew off with such force the extension itself hit the window and broke it.

tacman556:
Sorry, I don't have a factory unit so I'm not sure the clamp will fit an aftermarket.

The purpose of the groove is so the clamp screw can interlock with the groove and prevent the clamp from moving under recoil.

In the original military program the extension was designed for, the groove also positioned the clamp in the right location for the bayonet latch on the bottom to lock the bayonet on.

When the extension and clamp proved to be not strong enough to support actually using the bayonet, the military developed it's own barrel mount system, the famous Mark One unit.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 4:20:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2guntom:
Ooh, thanks for the really big text, I couldn't hear them the first time.

So, in case one, the guy knocked out a car window?! He needs to calm down, take a paxil, and wait for backup. He hit that thing pretty dang hard to break a window. Yes, he definately needs a clamp, or maybe he should just go without a mag extension at all.

Case two, he didn't bump it hard? This is a 10lb shotgun here, not a paper towel tube. "Bump" with a dowel rod, and "bump" with a 3ft long 10lb object are two different things. Yes, he needs a barrel clamp, needs to calm down, and probably watch where he's going.

Case three, yes he needs a barrel clamp. Barrel clamps are much less expensive than gun safes or racks, or any other proper means to secure your firearm.

I'm glad that this was brought to my attention. My poor Remington was unprotected by not having a barrel clamp. Just in case my 870 comes in contact with a police cruiser window, I'm not watching where I'm going, or if I try to stuff it in a closet, I am now covered

www.2guntom.com/454/guns/Im003978wf.jpg

www.2guntom.com/454/guns/Im003979wf.jpg

Just to be sure, and for maximum protection, I used 3 different brands. Starting at the base (right to left) are 2 ATI clamps, followed by 2 Choate clamps, then 2 Uncle Mike's clams, and since I still had room I put on one more ATI. If I use my extended choke, I might be able to get another clamp on; I'm not sure how that choke tube will fare if I bump it so it probably needs a clamp too.

If anybody needs clamps, I've got plenty more



Oh geez, lighten up. I just wanted to highlight what I thought was the most important part of his post, it wasn't directed towards anyone in particular.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:21:24 AM EDT
here's a question. if you were to buy a vang or wilson mag tube extension that does not have the cut in it for the barrel clamp, would the barrel clamp fit? or would you need to get the ring cut in the extension tube?
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:19:11 AM EDT
Yes, the clamp will fit, just the Factory Remington clamp will not fit.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 5:18:08 PM EDT
Here's a direct copy of the Remington factory clamp that WILL fit. The factory design is the best clamp of them all, and this one is as good as factory:
www.unclemikes.com/adtemplate.asp?invky=9004490&catky=1465723&subcatky1=4548843&subcatky2=2000180
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:39:30 AM EDT
Here's a direct copy of the Remington factory clamp that WILL fit. The factory design is the best clamp of them all, and this one is as good as factory:

spank you. was going to ask who's clamp to get when i order wilson's mag tube ext.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:11:18 AM EDT
I asked Hans Vang about this at the SHOT Show last week (since we are introducing a fancy magazine clamp of our own in a couple months), and he made a face and insisted there is no need for a magazine clamp. I have heard the stories dfariswheel mentions, but then Hans has been doing this for 30 years and ought to know a thing or two about it. We have no strong opinions of our own, we just make what people ask for.


Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
Again, there's no good reason NOT to use a clamp, and some good reasons why you should.



I can think of one, and it is the reason we have postponed for a year introducing our own clamp: with a magazine clamp installed, you now need a tool to remove the barrel.

We regard the magazine clamp as a platform supporting slings and Picatinny rails. After speaking to Hans Vang about them, we are less convinced of the necessity for extra support for the magazine extension itself.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:49:51 AM EDT
No to disrespect Hans, but I, for some reason, trust Remington a bit more abot the shotguns they manufacture. I also trust what I have seen, and what others have seen in the real world, instead of some three gun competition.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:25:41 PM EDT
The "fix" for the disassembly problem is the one Choate uses on their clamp and I think Remington still uses on their optional accessory clamp screw with swivel.
Their sling swivel is attached to the clamp screw and can be used as a "handle" to unscrew the screw.
No other tools required for disassembly.

This is all a matter of personal preference. No one is holding a gun to you forcing you to use, or not use a clamp.

Again, I suggest just looking at a shotgun with no clamp, then imagining the extension taking a hit.
A clamp is just one more method of eliminating potential problems.

Both Remington and Choate have considerably more years of experience with extensions than ANYONE, and both supply their extensions with clamps.

Make your own choice.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:08:45 PM EDT
I trust none other than factory remington parts
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 1:19:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 555R:
I trust none other than factory remington parts



That's interesting. Taking an 870 with no extension, you have a good piece of hardware.

But, if Remington were completely trustyworthy to their customers, we wouldn't need a stupid magazine clamp because there wouldn't be a stupid magazine extension. If Remington were soley reponsible to their customers, and not themselves, their bottom line, and their shareholders, they would have made the 870, 11-87, and the 1100 shotguns with a full-length magazine tube to begin with (like the Winchester Defender, and some of the Mossberg models).

It is not economically feasible to do this though since retooling is expensive. It is much more cost effective to just put an extension on the magazine. Although, they didn't seem to mind retooling for the MCS version of the 870. They can move the barrel tang back for a shorter mag tube, but they can't move it forward for hd models. Hmm... It is cost/profit driven.

It is not about us and what we want as paying loyal customers, it is about profits. If you don't believe me, then how did you hang a sling on your Remington shotgun? You couldn't, could you? There weren't any sling swivel studs. If you want a sling, you have to add the sling studs. Tell me how that is right.

I take back what I said earlier. I said that magazine clamps were not necessary. I should have said that magazine clamps shouldn't be necessary. Obviously, for the reasons above- Remington should give us the right magazine tube length from the get go. The other reason is that stupid things happen. In the world of firearms, there are 2 kinds of accidents- there are people that don't know any better, then there are those that do, but they get careless. Things happen, some by ignorance, some by carelessness.

I had posed a question before about why's. I asked why an unclamped magazine extension was so prone to launch if traumatized, yet a magazine cap was not. I told a story about how I got tangled in some brush, yet the magazine cap didn't fly off when the sling was pulling it. Yes, the force is being applied from a perpendicular plane, just like a smack to a mag extension (hold your shotgun up and let the sling dangle-that is perpendicular, not in-line).

So why does the mag cap stay in place when traumatized or abused, yet an unclamped mag extension has the potential to be launched into space or through a car window?

Spring tension!

A magazine clamp just screws on the end of a tube; that's it. There is a spring retainer holding the spring in the magazine tube, not the cap.

Now, a magazine tube extension bypasses this, and it holds the spring in. So that 3+ extension is under considerable pressure when that heavy replacement spring is compressed by 7 3" shells, isn't it? This whole contraption is a spring-loaded shell launcher just waiting to be set off. One good smack and you're there.

So, clamp it? Sure. dfaris, patrol, how's that?

The gentleman from Mesa was questioning the mag clamp. I say make it. Hans is right; we shouldn't need one. But things happen. You are also correct, that is just one more stupid thing that has to come off the gun for disassembly and maintenance. I wouldn't blame the clamp though, I'd blame the mag extension. I dread removing the 3+ extension and fighting the spring on my 870, but it has to come off so I can remove the barrel for cleaning.

I'm sure someone will say you don't have to break a shotgun all the way down for cleaning everytime you shoot it; you just bore-snake it or use an aerosol cleaner. Go ahead, flame away! When you later ask, How do I remove rust... or How come my patterns aren't...
What do you want me to say?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 1:30:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 1:31:05 AM EDT by AZ-K9]
It's been a long time since I've seen so many knowledgable people so worked up over a stupid little gun part.

Continue please, this is entertaining.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 1:35:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
It's been a long time since I've seen so many knowledgable people so worked up over a stupid little gun part.

Continue please, this is entertaining.



So is yours clamped? Unclamped? Do you have an extension?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:28:22 AM EDT
hmmm well all i know is my mag extension has a remington mag clamp
actually i have 2 mag extensions. two for the 18 and 20 inch barrel
however i havent heard much about launching the extensions after any trauma
ive only been shooting for 4 years now and the only odd related things Ive seen is a bushmaster bullpup KBing and my glock 23 launching off my tactical light/laser.
As for my shotty it came from a PD tradein and it wasnt that beatup.

The design behind mag extensions itself is its own weakness, as I see it. without a mag clamp it will be weak as its unsupported. I have had no experience with other brands.

just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:40:10 AM EDT
Good grief.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:51:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:54:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:15:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OODA_Loop:
Just FYI I heard from an LE trainer that he had seen Wilson units break.




I have seen two wilson/scattergun tech mag extensions fail in the last 6 years. They used to be brazed, now they are spot welded, both will fail.

Its funny when you fire a slug in training and your mag extension goes flying down range along with the spring. Wilson Combat replaced both extesions I saw fail.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:33:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mike103:
Well I have no dog in this fight because I do not own an extended mag on any of my 21 shotguns believe it or not.



Ya know, neither do the Riverside (California) County Sheriff's Department, and they have hundreds of shotguns.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:00:47 AM EDT

It is not about us and what we want as paying loyal customers, it is about profits. If you don't believe me, then how did you hang a sling on your Remington shotgun? You couldn't, could you? There weren't any sling swivel studs. If you want a sling, you have to add the sling studs. Tell me how that is right.


The FACTORY magazine tube clamp has a sling swivel stud built into it, and the FACTORY walnut Police stock had a sling swivel stud in it as well.

The shotgun is primarliy a hunting piece. There is no demand, nor need, for a long tube, or sling swivels in that arena. The factory extension tube works 100% when used in conjunction with the clamp, so why retool to make a long magazine tube integral? Then, you have major incompatibility issues,like the Winchester and Mossbergs you mentioned.

You can swap any 870 barrel from the NFA 14" piece, to a 32 fowling bbl onto the same receiver and mag tube, and extend the tube if you want to. On the Mossies and the Winchesters, you dont have that option, as the factory HD modles have the bbl band in different positions for the defense vs. the sporting models.

Since the 870 is the number one selling defensive and police shotgun in the nation, if not the world, I feel that if Remington needed to do something to make it a better shotgun, they would do so. As it is, the factory magazine extension and clamp is the perfect solution to the issue, so why change? Profit isnt the issue, IMO, its the fact that what they have WORKS...
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:30:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mesa_Tactical:

Originally Posted By mike103:
Well I have no dog in this fight because I do not own an extended mag on any of my 21 shotguns believe it or not.



Ya know, neither do the Riverside (California) County Sheriff's Department, and they have hundreds of shotguns.



There is something to that, and a smart choice at that.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 10:39:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:

It is not about us and what we want as paying loyal customers, it is about profits. If you don't believe me, then how did you hang a sling on your Remington shotgun? You couldn't, could you? There weren't any sling swivel studs. If you want a sling, you have to add the sling studs. Tell me how that is right.


The FACTORY magazine tube clamp has a sling swivel stud built into it, and the FACTORY walnut Police stock had a sling swivel stud in it as well.

The shotgun is primarliy a hunting piece. There is no demand, nor need, for a long tube, or sling swivels in that arena. The factory extension tube works 100% when used in conjunction with the clamp, so why retool to make a long magazine tube integral? Then, you have major incompatibility issues,like the Winchester and Mossbergs you mentioned.

You can swap any 870 barrel from the NFA 14" piece, to a 32 fowling bbl onto the same receiver and mag tube, and extend the tube if you want to. On the Mossies and the Winchesters, you dont have that option, as the factory HD modles have the bbl band in different positions for the defense vs. the sporting models.

Since the 870 is the number one selling defensive and police shotgun in the nation, if not the world, I feel that if Remington needed to do something to make it a better shotgun, they would do so. As it is, the factory magazine extension and clamp is the perfect solution to the issue, so why change? Profit isnt the issue, IMO, its the fact that what they have WORKS...



The "police" model costs more; it has studs. The "express" costs less; no studs. It's about money, profits, and the bottom line. The "police" model goes from rack/carrier to hand; why does it need sling studs? I've never been to Oklahoma, and I don't know if or what you hunt. Around here, a hunting arm has to have a sling. Getting to your hunting spot requires sure footing and sometimes both hands.

Inflation and rising costs are a fact of life. Competition and what the market and consumers will bear plays in too. In manufacturing, you must produce your goods 13% faster than you did the year before in order to keep your retail price similar to what it was the year before. Less man hours. Your cost of living pay increase to the laborers is about 3 1/2% per year, and the other expenses (health insurance) go up drastically. The other thing you do is try less expensive parts to see if they will pass quality and performance checks. This goes on in most, if not all manufacturing facilities every year. The end result is the best thing you can produce within moderate means. That does not mean it is the best product. More machines, less hands on, plastic parts replace metal parts

Remington makes a good product; that can't be denied. They are continuing to dominate the market share game; this is evident by their sales compared to all the other manufacturers and the companies that have since closed. Compared to the products that other companies market, Remington sometimes has a better product. To say it is the best is only a relative term. If they made the best product, then I wouldn't have any 'smithing to do, nor would Hans, Wilson, Mesa, and all the other shotgun 'smiths. And, quite frankly, union labor rates at Remington are going to be cheaper than that of a custom gunsmith. The Vang complete custom 870 that costs $1300 and up would run $850 if Remington were to do all the work.

Bottom lines and profitablity are what make this capitalist democracy work.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:19:16 PM EDT
This may be the toughest but you need to see if they have it for a 870.
I have a clamp on mine because I saw someone get a vine hung between the tube and the barrel during a jungle run at a 3 gun match.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 9:42:02 PM EDT

I've never been to Oklahoma, and I don't know if or what you hunt. Around here, a hunting arm has to have a sling. Getting to your hunting spot requires sure footing and sometimes both hands.



In Oklahoma, a shotgun is used but for one thing, little critters with wings, be they quail, dove or duck. Anyhting else get a rifled bore.

A law Enforcement shotgun requires a sling to be effective.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 5:14:30 AM EDT
+1

A sling is essential for any long gun. What if you have to carry someone out? Or do something else with both hands. How about weapon retention?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:22:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:

I've never been to Oklahoma, and I don't know if or what you hunt. Around here, a hunting arm has to have a sling. Getting to your hunting spot requires sure footing and sometimes both hands.



In Oklahoma, a shotgun is used but for one thing, little critters with wings, be they quail, dove or duck. Anyhting else get a rifled bore.

A law Enforcement shotgun requires a sling to be effective.



Shotguns are used here for more than feathered game, and the terrain is quite different.

Law enforcement around here is pitiful. It is almost impossible to get them to respond, and when they do, they don't get out of the car. It doesn't matter if the shotgun has a sling or even any shells in it.

A month ago I was in town. I noticed a patrol car parked on the street and the onboard arsenal caught my eye. In the middle, between the driver's and passenger's seat was a shotgun and an AR. I had to laugh. I believe my comment was, "You have to actually get out of the car to deploy either one of those."

But, it really doesn't matter what I say because there will be a comment that contradicts, so...
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 1:48:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 555R:
I trust none other than factory remington parts



+1
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 2:37:02 PM EDT

Law enforcement around here is pitiful. It is almost impossible to get them to respond, and when they do, they don't get out of the car. It doesn't matter if the shotgun has a sling or even any shells in it.

A month ago I was in town. I noticed a patrol car parked on the street and the onboard arsenal caught my eye. In the middle, between the driver's and passenger's seat was a shotgun and an AR. I had to laugh. I believe my comment was, "You have to actually get out of the car to deploy either one of those."



Wow, we have gone from the best extension made, to whether a shotgun needs a sling, to how worthless cops are, and how they done even need guns.

This will be my last post in this thread, since its so far down the tube.

I use Factory Remington tubes and extensions, as they work. Tanks are good, as they are a copy of the factory parts.

I require a sling on my duty shotgun, for when I have to get out of the car. I try my hardest not to, and mostly just sit on my fat ass and eat donuts. But, since i have a badge, I am an expert. I have no real world experience nor training, they just pin a badge on me, and hand me a shotgun.

I require my hunting shotguns not have slings, as they get in the way. I dont use a shotgun to kill anything without feathers, or that flies. Its an unpland game gun, and a sling has no place on a carried gun. I dont often need to go hands-on with a quail, so thats not an issue.

Link Posted: 2/19/2006 2:41:35 PM EDT
If you're interested, I have a couple of brand-new Remington parkerized L.E. magazine extensions. I have them for the 18" or for the 20" barrels. I'd probably sell them for $50 each shipped in the U.S. They come with the magazine clamp, which I do believe is a good idea. They also come with a sling swivel attached to the bottom sling attachment point.
As a police armorer, I have seen several guns with stripped magazine tube threads. If it gets bumped hard or if it works loose a little bit, it's easy enough to strip the threads on the tube. I don't see why you'd want to risk it by going without one.
Scattergun (Wilson Combat) used to make their sling mount fit on the threads between the barrel ring and the mag extension. I think it was Columbus, Ohio P.D. that bought around 500 of those from Scattergun and over half of them were out of service due to stripped threads. Scattergun has since changed their design so the sling mount is on the extension and the extension can grab all of the available threads on the magazine tube.
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