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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/20/2002 12:06:26 AM EDT
I'm looking for suggestions on a good 308 rifle. I already have an ar and love it but I'm looking for a harder hitter. The things I'm looking for are as follows:

1. Reliable - The Timex type
2. Semi auto
3. accessories (stocks, slings, etc)
4. cheap good quality magazine availability
5. Replacement parts availability
6. Cost/availability

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:30:02 AM EDT
I went with the Springfield M1A. It's reliable,Semi auto, Plenty of available accessories and parts, I go with USGI m14 mags. Not cheap but very reliable. I haven't had any good luck with any after market mags.
Different Brands at different prices. My son has a polytech and it shoots as good as my springfield. Lot's of different good rifles out there to consider.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 1:19:32 AM EDT
Consider the $600 VEPR.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 3:30:28 AM EDT
I'm VERY happy with my DS Arms FN-FAL. The mags are cheap (recently bought 10 NIW for $100) and availability isn't a problem. Parts are also cheap and very available. Oh yea, I'm talking about metric pattern rifles. But it appears inch pattern (like the L1A1) are available and cheap too.

I'm very pleased with the accuracy of the rifle. It doesn't seem to be real ammo sensative (unlike the AR-10s I've seen). You can adjust the gas port, which is a plus in certain conditions. Plus you can get the rifle in many different configurations.

I bought the StG-58 for $969 before tax.

I vote FAL. It seems to meet all your requirements.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:01:34 AM EDT
Ar10 - Ok, so the mags are expensive, and so are the rifles, but it is too cool.

It's also very accurate.

My second choice would be an M1A.


Tony
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 10:35:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15junkie1:
I'm looking for suggestions on a good 308 rifle. I already have an ar and love it but I'm looking for a harder hitter. The things I'm looking for are as follows:

1. Reliable - The Timex type
2. Semi auto
3. accessories (stocks, slings, etc)
4. cheap good quality magazine availability
5. Replacement parts availability
6. Cost/availability

Thanks



1. FAL meets this criteria
2. Ditto
3. Ditto
4. NIW mags 9.99 all day long
5. Go with metric for parts availability
6. If you are a WECSOGER you can get a FAL together for <$700. New DSA FALs are in the same range as the M1A
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 10:49:43 AM EDT
FAL

www.dsarms.com

you wouldn't be making a mistake with an M1A either though
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:31:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2002 12:53:32 PM EDT by Noname]
FAL
M14
AR10
G3
In that order...
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:39:23 PM EDT
Oh and don't overlook the M1 Garand!
Clips be dirt cheap!
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 2:27:45 PM EDT
I thought I read somewhere that fals had problems with breaking firing pins? Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 2:43:37 PM EDT
I have have been playing with FAL's for 13 years. Never had any FP problems. A few of my FAL's have over 25k through them...

(And if you did DSA wants 10.00 for 1 piece and 15.00 for 2 piece.)
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 2:45:41 PM EDT
This is a no brainer! M1A1 If you want cheap FAL.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 2:46:51 PM EDT
1 of each, of course!
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:00:11 PM EDT
This meets some of your criteria, but is pretty much off the bitchen scale:



Yes, I have returned. Temporarily.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 7:06:38 PM EDT
Dayamn CitadelGrad, personal PSG1?

FN-FAL or DSA STG58 or Imbel or Century L1A1.
pricing tends to go in that order. 1st being most expensive.

Springfield M1A if you're willing to shell out
the dough.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 7:35:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2002 7:37:34 PM EDT by mattsd]
i belive thats a psg1 clone acually. im not sure though. could be SG-1 or a 91 base with upgraded stock and trigger group ( that dosnt look like a psg1 stock, maybe msg90)


edited to add: bitchin as hell rifle

edeited again to add: i'd hit it
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 7:42:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2002 7:43:57 PM EDT by MonkeyGrip]
$995
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 8:15:55 PM EDT
DSA FAL. Period. The thing is sweet and it gets everyone's attention at the place I shoot. More so than my AR or my AK. I suggest a 18" barrel and an Ergo grip.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 7:14:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IronBalaclava:
Dayamn CitadelGrad, personal PSG1?

.



Close, but not quite.

It's an HK SR9T, factory configuration.

Basically a postban HK91 with PSG1 trigger, Grip, and, as Mattsd pointed out, an MSG90 stock.

I recently upgraded to SR9TC configuration, with a PSG1 stock, but now it's REALLY heavy.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 11:32:13 AM EDT
Citadelgrad,

Sweet.. What did that cost?

Are the iron sights on an FAL good?
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 11:33:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By IronBalaclava:
Dayamn CitadelGrad, personal PSG1?

.



Close, but not quite.

It's an HK SR9T, factory configuration.

Basically a postban HK91 with PSG1 trigger, Grip, and, as Mattsd pointed out, an MSG90 stock.

I recently upgraded to SR9TC configuration, with a PSG1 stock, but now it's REALLY heavy.




Nice none the less The PSG trigger is what caught my attention. What kind of glass you got
mounted?
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 11:50:18 AM EDT
Glass is a Trashco Sooper Sniper. I only call it that 'cuz I have one too and love it. Great scope for the money. I've heard not so flattering things about the newer ones though. Mine's about 5 years old and is great.
Citadel,
Nice stick.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:44:49 PM EDT
I say got for the M1A.

The FAL, is cheaper. And so are the mags. But it is not as accurate. And it doesn't feel as natural. At least to me.

I had a very nice custom built paratrooper FAL. And thought it was great.

Until I got to spend an afternoon with an M1A.

It didn't take me but a few days to trade off my FAL for an M1A.


THe only thing the FAL has going for it over the M1A is the mag cost.

If you can deal with that, the M1A is the way to go.

Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:55:22 PM EDT
I dunno, aren't FALs lighter than most M1As?

I was also under the impression that FALs are more versatile and have more configuration possibilities.

I have also heard that FALs are easier to maintain and clean but don't have enough M1A experience to know either way. I do know that they break down and clean in a snap however.

Lastly, I think that the adjustable gas system is a sweet FAL feature not on the M1A
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 8:15:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By legalese77:
I dunno, aren't FALs lighter than most M1As?

I was also under the impression that FALs are more versatile and have more configuration possibilities.

I have also heard that FALs are easier to maintain and clean but don't have enough M1A experience to know either way. I do know that they break down and clean in a snap however.

Lastly, I think that the adjustable gas system is a sweet FAL feature not on the M1A





FAL! Do not resist!
AB
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 2:26:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 3:24:32 PM EDT
Rent one of each or find a way to shoot an FN-FAL and an M1A side by side. I HATE the FN's stock . I can't shoot the damn things well at all. The M1A would be my choice but please go & shoot them side by side prior to spending your $$$$$$$$.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 3:38:42 PM EDT
Troy,

Curious, how does one accurize an FAL? How much recoil compared to an M14?

I would have to say if someone is going to shoot iron sights, I think the M14 is the way to go. But mounting a scope on one is a pain in the ass. Once you do, you MUST use some kind of raised cheekpiece. And unless you have an adjustable stock, this means you can't get down to where the irons are if you need to.

I've never had a FAL. Maybe time to change that.

Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:03:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 11:31:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2002 11:33:20 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 11:37:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 6:26:35 AM EDT
In addition to the valid points made by Troy, I would like to point out that both FSE and DSA have two stage "match" triggers in the works for the FAL. The 'sloppy' battle rifle trigger has been a frequent complaint among M1A and other 'match' rifle shooters. The new triggers forthcoming from FSE and DSA will allegedly remedy this longstanding deficiency.

OTOH, my FAL trigger is good enough for me.

Not sure anyone addressed the recoil question but I can say that the FAL is among the lowest recoiling .30 rifles I have ever fired. Certainly much less recoil than an M1 Garand or .303 enfield. Because it's been awhile since I've fired a USGI .30 carbine I hesitate to say that the FAL recoil is as light as that but it's surprisingly mild in any case.

This light recoil is supposed to be one of the benefits of the adjustable gas system. On the front of the rifle around the gas plug there is a click-adjustable ring that regulates the amount of gas vented from the system. Opening the vent reduces the amount of gas used to operate the action which in turn is supposed to reduce the amount of wear on the action from excessive rearward force and is also supposed to reduce recoil.

The FAL v M1A question has been debated more than the origins of life, I think.

One thing I love about my FAL that has absolutely nothing to do with function is the fact that when you take it out, people gawk and wonder what is that evil looking thing.

Anyone interested in a FAL would be well advised to spend some time at the www.falfiles.com message boards.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 6:54:37 AM EDT
M1A the only way to go. Mine is the easiest rifle I have ever shot! I also have an Imbel FAL but the M1A is the better rifle.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 10:02:57 AM EDT
If you are used to an AR15, then AR10 is the only way to go. All parts look the same, just bigger. Cost is between an FAL and an M1A. I have a flat top with extra high Millett rings (same as on an AR15). Put a Weaver Classic 4-16 x 40 in them. Baby is sweet!!
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 1:46:02 PM EDT
dsa ....all the way....sub minute groups(even w/surplus ammo) and great iron sights.
and all the other stuff everybody said.
i have 2 and i'm getting a carbine next, my 24" bull barrel in stainless is sweet.
and i've owned or fired all the others.would post pics if i could figure out how( i just lurk here once in a while)
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 2:09:11 PM EDT
Check out the new DPMS .308 AR style and resonably priced.

www.shooterstore.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&DID=90&Product_ID=5288&CATID=493
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 10:14:01 PM EDT




Post-ban FAL Imbel (Brazilian) parts kit on DSA Type 2 upper receiver and European walnut furniture. Fake Browning flash suppressor.

Gabe
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 2:32:18 AM EDT
The G3 is more reliable than the FAL. I have had both and still like the G3 better.

Many countries adopted the FAL but left it in the 80s.

G3s are still being made in many Countries and fielded to firts line tropps.

FALs are great but they can't be modernized as much as a G3.

Just look at this baby:



Picture from HK pro.com
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 6:31:11 AM EDT
DSA FAL, and it meets all of your requirements

Link Posted: 12/24/2002 6:35:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
The funniest thing happened at the range today. Me and Green18 were blasting away with our Springfield Armory M1A's (he has a Standard, I have a Scout), some guy a couple of points down was shooting a CETME. The iron sights on the M1A's are accurate and continue to impress me. I can also slap on an Aimpoint for when I really feel like emptying the 20 rounders downrange. What about the guy with the CETME? He was absolutely 100% miserable trying to sight his CETME in(one of the main reasons I got rid of mine). So what's my point? I guess this is one of those, "you get what you pay for" deals. Granted, the M1A costs waaaay more but the rifle has been flawless and a total joy to own and shoot so far.



A CETME is no HK91. You do get what you pay for.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 2:48:28 PM EDT
www.vandenbergcustom.com

Ed makes nice FAL's with improved triggers & he will put a Shilen barrel on there with his custom free-float tube if you want.
I know he's made some in .243 & I think 260 Remington.
He also makes a modified AR15A2 rear sight that slides onto the FAL.
DSA I think sells a similiar item as well as improved front sights too.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:47:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
93 countries adopted the FAL.
1 country adopted the M14 (the US).

And the US did a test before the M14 was adopted, pitting the FAL vs the M14. The FAL won. But the M14 was procured anyway, because it was designed by the US Ordnance department and not by a foreign country. That decision lead to the end of the Ordnance department.

The M1A (a semi-auto only and very slightly modified M14) has a few advantages over the FAL: better iron sights, the availability of better match triggers, and a more conventional, "politically correct" appearance.

The FAL is more reliable, easier to clean and maintain, can be equally accurate. It is MUCH easier to add optics to, and much better designed to accomidate them. It is a better field rifle, more ergonomic, and magazines and other parts are currently inexpensive and widely available.

They didn't call the FAL "the Right Arm of the Free World" for nothing!

-Troy



Not entirely true. Taiwan and South Korea both adopted the M14 briefly before switching to the M16A1.

South Korea now uses a Daewoo Assault Rifle, while Taiwan is still using the older version of the M16.

After the US discontinued production of the M14. Taiwan bought the equipment used to manufacture the M14 from TRW.


West Germany initially adopted the FAL then switched to the HK G3.

As for reliability...I think that the M14 is more reliable when it comes to operating in sandy conditions. The Israeli's were disappointed by the FAL's performance during the 1967 and 1973 Wars.

Perversely..the British incorporated Sand Cuts on the Bolt Carriers of their L1A1's while the Israeli's didn't.

Israel = Desert
Britain != Desert

Link Posted: 12/24/2002 7:58:42 PM EDT
All I can say is my AR10A2 carbine. Was worth every penny. Armalite in .308 was the birth of the M16. Designer; Eugen Stoner
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 11:21:26 AM EDT
I know this may not be the best discussion for my question, but since the FAL has come up, is the inch reciever any better than a metric? The only real difference I could see was in the magazine so do the metric mags fit as well and tightly in the gun?
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 1:05:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mstirton:
I know this may not be the best discussion for my question, but since the FAL has come up, is the inch reciever any better than a metric? The only real difference I could see was in the magazine so do the metric mags fit as well and tightly in the gun?



The metric mags will fit in the inch upper receiver, but they will be loose and wobble around. As you've already noted, the lug on the front of metric mags is much smaller than on the inch-pattern mags. Inch mags will *not* fit in a metric upper.

Metric mags, parts kits, and upper receivers are much more plentiful (and less expensive) than inch-pattern ones. Excellent condition aluminum and steel 20-rd mags are commonly available for $4.50 each.

The Austrian Stg-58 kits are considered to be the best metric kits, with Imbel (Brazilian) a close second. The former West German G1's were sent to Turkey when they were replaced by the G3's, and were pretty much abused by the Turkish conscripts.

For more info, check out the FAL Files Forums:

www.falfiles.com/forums/index.php

HTH,
Gabe

Back to our regular programming
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 7:57:05 AM EDT
Another vote for the AR-10. I like the FAL alot...I mean alot but I like my AR-10 a tad bit better. I had a love affair with the G3 for many years until I started shooting a friend's FAL. The lack of a bolt hold open device really does it for me. The sights on both the FAL and G3 are the real short coming of these rifles with the FAL being the worst of the two. The AR-10 is every bit as accurate as a match M1A and you don't have to worry about bedding issues, plus the mounting of optics is very easy. If you use and like an AR-15, then choice is easy.
Link Posted: 12/28/2002 12:47:42 PM EDT
1. Reliable - The Timex type
2. Semi auto
3. accessories (stocks, slings, etc)
4. cheap good quality magazine availability
5. Replacement parts availability
6. Cost/availability

That would be the FAL.

The M1A, which I have and love, doesn't fit number 4 as you're looking at $35 magazines vice the FAL's at $5.

Parts are available for both but the FAL's are much cheaper.

The cost of a good FAL is about $800, the M1A about $1200.
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