Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Posted: 7/24/2008 8:57:12 PM EDT
The "upper befor tax stamp" thread got me thinking.  If I have for example 4 regular AR rifle lowers and 1 SBR lower can I have several short barrel uppers even if I don't have uppers for all my rifle lowers. It could look bad if someone looks in your safe and sees 1 complete SBR, 4 extra short uppers, and 4 rifle lowers, and no rifle uppers to go on them. Is this legal, or are you asking for trouble?
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 12:02:59 AM EDT
[#1]
Conventional wisdom is that you're good if every lower can be assembled into a legal configuration.

However, the scenario you propose would mean that if your components were assembled, you'd have illegal firearms.  You'd need to have rifle uppers for all the non-registered lowers before you could have the spare SBR uppers.

HTH,
~Augee
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 4:10:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 6:16:32 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't own any short uppers right now and would have to sell all of my rifle uppers once my form 4 is approved for this to happen. So don't worry, I don't plan on doing anything stupid. I was just wondering.


I mabe should have asked the question differently. If I have one complete SBR with one extra SBR upper. Can I have all my complete rifles and one spare rifle lower, that I do not have an upper for right now, all in the same safe and not have to wach my cornhole?

So I would have all complete rifles (SBR and regular) but with one extra sub 16" upper and a spare 16"+ rifle lower. I think that this is a possibility since I will only have one SBR that I plan to get several uppers for,  and right now I have a complete lower with no upper.

I will not do any thing illegal, but would this look bad? If it does I will just buy another 16"+ upper for the lower before I get any extra uppers for my SBR.


Link Posted: 7/25/2008 6:55:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 10:31:01 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
I don't own any short uppers right now and would have to sell all of my rifle uppers once my form 4 is approved for this to happen. So don't worry, I don't plan on doing anything stupid. I was just wondering.


I mabe should have asked the question differently. If I have one complete SBR with one extra SBR upper. Can I have all my complete rifles and one spare rifle lower, that I do not have an upper for right now, all in the same safe and not have to wach my cornhole?

So I would have all complete rifles (SBR and regular) but with one extra sub 16" upper and a spare 16"+ rifle lower. I think that this is a possibility since I will only have one SBR that I plan to get several uppers for,  and right now I have a complete lower with no upper.

I will not do any thing illegal, but would this look bad? If it does I will just buy another 16"+ upper for the lower before I get any extra uppers for my SBR.


Just get yourself a few pistol stripped lowers. They are a great investment anyway and only cost $100-$140 each, depending on brand. If you have them laying around with the extra short uppers... they are just unfinished projects. But make sure you can put them in contact with whoever you bought them from and there is initial registration of them as pistol lowers.
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 10:39:58 AM EDT
[#6]
Thanks for the info tony. Again, I ask so that I wont end up in a situation that could get me in trouble. I have no intention of breaking the law.

I will make sure that I have a 16"+ upper attached to every regular lower before I get any extra short uppers. I want one 5.56 and one 9mm SBR upper but I will only have one lower for a while. I would like to do that without going to jail. If I can't then I will just stick with 1 complete SBR.
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 1:10:27 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
Just get yourself a few pistol stripped lowers.  

+1

Be careful here.  I find that stripped lowers don't tend to stay "unbuilt" for long.  They end up being completed into something.  Even if it is a pistol setup for those spare shorty uppers you have laying around.
Link Posted: 7/25/2008 4:11:37 PM EDT
[#8]
this is why all stripped lowers of mine are 4473'ed as pistols.
Link Posted: 8/14/2008 6:35:33 PM EDT
[#9]
What if you have a M16A2 on a form 4 with a 20" barrel and want to put a LMT MRP 10.5" barrel on it but you don't want to permanently change the configuration and notify ATF. Then the ATF decide to check on your gun and they see that you put a collapsible stock on and a 10.5" barrel. Then they say you have to put it back in it's original configuration. Oops now you have a 10.5" upper with non NFA receiver. Is this possible or am I beating a dead horse?
Link Posted: 8/14/2008 6:52:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 8/14/2008 7:29:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Okay I got it. Thanks Tony_k.
Link Posted: 8/14/2008 8:27:13 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What if you have a M16A2 on a form 4 with a 20" barrel and want to put a LMT MRP 10.5" barrel on it but you don't want to permanently change the configuration and notify ATF. Then the ATF decide to check on your gun and they see that you put a collapsible stock on and a 10.5" barrel. Then they say you have to put it back in it's original configuration. Oops now you have a 10.5" upper with non NFA receiver. Is this possible or am I beating a dead horse?


That horse is dead.

BATFE can't "say you have to put it back in its original configuration" as long as you still have the parts to do so -- there is no law against temporary changes in config, and in the U.S., if there is no specific law against something, it is presumed to be legal.

Now, if you have an M16A2 with a 20" barrel and buy a LMT MRP 10.5" barrel, and also happen to own a Title 1 AR15 lower with no accompanying upper, then yes, you have a problem: Under the Thompson precedent, you have all the parts to assemble an unregistered SBR (the AR15 lower + the LMT 10.5" upper) and do not have enough parts to also assemble them in a legal configuration. That equals constructive possession of an unregistered SBR.


OK I am going to disagree with Tony_K here.

If you have an M16A2 with a 20" upper and purchase a LMT 10.5" upper in conjunction with a spare lower .. you haven't broken any laws AS LONG as the 20" upper resides on the "spare" lower and the 10.5" on the M16
Link Posted: 8/15/2008 5:40:47 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
What if you have a M16A2 on a form 4 with a 20" barrel and want to put a LMT MRP 10.5" barrel on it but you don't want to permanently change the configuration and notify ATF. Then the ATF decide to check on your gun and they see that you put a collapsible stock on and a 10.5" barrel. Then they say you have to put it back in it's original configuration. Oops now you have a 10.5" upper with non NFA receiver. Is this possible or am I beating a dead horse?


That horse is dead.

BATFE can't "say you have to put it back in its original configuration" as long as you still have the parts to do so -- there is no law against temporary changes in config, and in the U.S., if there is no specific law against something, it is presumed to be legal.

Now, if you have an M16A2 with a 20" barrel and buy a LMT MRP 10.5" barrel, and also happen to own a Title 1 AR15 lower with no accompanying upper, then yes, you have a problem: Under the Thompson precedent, you have all the parts to assemble an unregistered SBR (the AR15 lower + the LMT 10.5" upper) and do not have enough parts to also assemble them in a legal configuration. That equals constructive possession of an unregistered SBR.


OK I am going to disagree with Tony_K here.

If you have an M16A2 with a 20" upper and purchase a LMT 10.5" upper in conjunction with a spare lower .. you haven't broken any laws AS LONG as the 20" upper resides on the "spare" lower and the 10.5" on the M16
+1
Link Posted: 8/15/2008 6:03:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 8/15/2008 2:29:07 PM EDT
[#15]
If you can assemble everything you own in a legal manner, the ATF would have an insurmountable obstacle to proving constructive intent.  You can have a hundred short uppers if you have a single pistol or SBR lower, because you can easily show that everything in your collection can be used legally.

Think about it.  If you own a complete SBR and a complete non-SBR, you could theoretically put the shorty upper on the unregistered lower and have an illegal gun.  But ATF would never come after you for owning those rifles, because there is an obvious and legal way to use everything you own.
Link Posted: 8/16/2008 6:17:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 8/16/2008 1:23:33 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you can assemble everything you own in a legal manner, the ATF would have an insurmountable obstacle to proving constructive intent.  You can have a hundred short uppers if you have a single pistol or SBR lower, because you can easily show that everything in your collection can be used legally.

Think about it.  If you own a complete SBR and a complete non-SBR, you could theoretically put the shorty upper on the unregistered lower and have an illegal gun.  But ATF would never come after you for owning those rifles, because there is an obvious and legal way to use everything you own.


My experience with ATF, and knowledge of their past practices, differs from yours. In fact, I would have to say that when something is "obvious," that's a guarantee that ATF will take the opposite stance.

Again, YMMV.


I sure wouldn't be owning 100 short uppers with only one pistol or SBR lower.
Guys .. you have to use common sense and exercise sound judgement .. and by all means .. buy all the short uppers you want IF you feel you CAN justify yourself if it ever comes to a head inside of a courtroom.  I don't want to be in your moccasins or even have knowledge of such activities that may place myself between the proverbial "rock and a hard place".  Don't want to have a d*mn thing to do with gray areas.

Myself .. I just got another CLEO signoff for another SBR as I know I will end up with more than one short upper and I have non-NFA lowers without uppers lying about in the safe.  Best to just bite the bullet and purchase a "CHEAP" $200 insurance policy!

And I will agree with tony-k .. what you think is obvious .. the ATF will probably view quite differently!
Link Posted: 8/17/2008 8:15:39 AM EDT
[#18]
A lot of hullaballoo is made of constructive intent.  If anyone can show me a court case where a person was prosecuted for posessing more short uppers than SBR/MG lowers, I will eat my hat.
Link Posted: 8/17/2008 8:47:28 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
A lot of hullaballoo is made of constructive intent.  If anyone can show me a court case where a person was prosecuted for posessing more short uppers than SBR/MG lowers, I will eat my hat.


Start eating it.

Look up the Kent case.  Mr. Kent was caught with a short upper, which he claimed he owned for "spare parts," and an unregistered AR-15.  ATF pushed two puns, dropped on the short upper, and got a conviction on an unregistered SBR charge.
Link Posted: 8/17/2008 2:53:17 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm not talking about someone with NO registered lower.  I have very clearly said that as long as you own ONE pistol/SBR/MG lower you can own as many short uppers as you want.  Kent did NOT have a single pistol/SBR/MG lower, so you have made a straw-man argument.  You have not proved me wrong, only proved that possession of a short upper with NO legal lower is a felony, which we all already knew.
Link Posted: 8/17/2008 6:14:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top