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9/16/2019 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 12/31/2011 5:43:29 AM EDT
ok, so I want to set up a trust for an nfa item.

I downloaded and edited MD_shooters trust document. now where do I go from there? is it just a matter of getting it notarized and filing it in my safe? I guess what I'm saying is, is it really that simple?
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 6:45:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fslflint:
ok, so I want to set up a trust for an nfa item.

I downloaded and edited MD_shooters trust document. now where do I go from there? is it just a matter of getting it notarized and filing it in my safe? I guess what I'm saying is, is it really that simple?

Not for me. I paid a lawyer, and if I ever have a problem with the ATF as it pertains to the trust the ball will be in his court.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 6:56:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2011 7:01:59 AM EDT by ske714]
Originally Posted By fslflint:
ok, so I want to set up a trust for an nfa item.

I downloaded and edited MD_shooters trust document. now where do I go from there? is it just a matter of getting it notarized and filing it in my safe? I guess what I'm saying is, is it really that simple?


The answer to your question, is yes (although some states require registration at the courthouse, Pa. does not appear to be one of them). I started to do it the way you did, but ended up buying the Quicken software. <$25 at Amazon. The Ohio trust it generated had some differences from the MD_shooter version. I don't know if they would have mattered, but I feel better having spent the money. There may be things specific to your state that are important.

Software

ETA: If you use this software, you will have to export the file and edit it with Word in order to change the name of the trust. It used my full name in a long title by default.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 7:37:22 AM EDT
I actually already have that software. So I'll go make one that way. But I'm in Md now, so Md shooters trust should work.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 2:46:10 PM EDT
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 3:22:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


Have you ever used the software? I did a software trust, and everything was thoroughly explained throughout the process. I studied all of the legal documentation that was available, and have a good understanding of everything in the trust. You can ask any question that you could ask an attorney. If you take your time and do your homework, it's not that complicated. Dropping $300 on a lawyer won't make you any wiser, and doesn't guarantee it's going to be right anyway. I don't know what you think an attorney could have done differently.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 4:02:56 PM EDT
My class 3 dealer set mine up for a whopping $35.00 and I have gotten 3 stamps so far and 4 more on the way. He has been selling for over 20 years, so I figured that he would know what he is doing.
Link Posted: 12/31/2011 6:03:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By delta-10:
My class 3 dealer set mine up for a whopping $35.00...


Unless your dealer in a lawyer then he committed a felony by practicing law without a license.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:28:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


I would like to do some research into this. Thus the question. Could anybody show me a case where an nfa item was siezed due to an improperly worded trust?
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:56:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 6:01:01 AM EDT by raysheen]
Originally Posted By fslflint:
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


I would like to do some research into this. Thus the question. Could anybody show me a case where an nfa item was siezed due to an improperly worded trust?


Either Goldman or Prince had an example linked on one of their websites...let me see if I can find it.

Here is the link: http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html

IIRC the case involved Quicken "allowing" the user to make themselves the Grantor, Trustee and Beneficiary of the trust.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:47:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raysheen:
Originally Posted By fslflint:
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


I would like to do some research into this. Thus the question. Could anybody show me a case where an nfa item was siezed due to an improperly worded trust?


Either Goldman or Prince had an example linked on one of their websites...let me see if I can find it.

Here is the link: http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html

IIRC the case involved Quicken "allowing" the user to make themselves the Grantor, Trustee and Beneficiary of the trust.


Supposedly, your form 4 will not get approved like that now. I read of some that were denied until they were corrected. Based on this from the link...

"Joshua Prince alerted me to a blog post on a developing situation he ran across on Subguns where an individual used Quicken to attempt to create a trust for NFA purposes. Unfortunately the BATFE has now decided that his Quicken trust was invalid and is seeking to seize his MAC-11 and Silencer. He could also be subject to a prison sentence of 10 years and $250,000 in fines."

...I would guess that the full story was that the individual had two items already approved on the trust, went for a third item and they noticed the error. The BATF told him to fix it, (a simple thing), or hand over his stuff. Certainly not a situation you want to be in, but I don't believe that they were kicking on his door. I'm sure if they had, we would have heard about it.

Also, only an idiot would name himself as beneficiary. The software will even tell you that the beneficiary will get your stuff AFTER YOU'RE DEAD.

Lastly, even if you're completely stupid, the software will no longer even let you name yourself as beneficiary. I just tried.

Link Posted: 1/1/2012 1:19:13 PM EDT
if you are a moron, hire a lawyer. But I bet a good number of lawyer created trusts have issues too...

That said, I would at least get the software. If you have to answer to the law where you trust came from, paying $40 for software and doing some research yourself sounds much better than I found it on the internet.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 1:38:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 1:39:51 PM EDT by Homeinvader]
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


Have you ever used the software? I did a software trust, and everything was thoroughly explained throughout the process. I studied all of the legal documentation that was available, and have a good understanding of everything in the trust. You can ask any question that you could ask an attorney. If you take your time and do your homework, it's not that complicated. Dropping $300 on a lawyer won't make you any wiser, and doesn't guarantee it's going to be right anyway. I don't know what you think an attorney could have done differently.


Not saying the Quicken trust is invalid, I'm saying they were not drafted or ever intended to handle the complexities of NFA ownership. In the absence of legal advice from an attorney who could otherwise advise on a person's specific situation, people are making up rules as they go. I see it almost ever day on these and other boards. Quicken just doesn't provide the insight that should accompany the document.

Combine this with the seemingly common practice of adding shooting buddies as trustees in order to facilitate some bizarre need to share. This is causing a conflict of interest that will bring down the house. Trustees are there to distribute the assets of the trust upon the death of the grantor. Speaking generally, I'm sure most appointed trustees of this sort do not understand their responsibilities here and in time this is where we'll see the collapse. It was fun and games while you were alive to advise, but now you're not and they're lost, legally speaking. They'll make a mistake either of action or inaction and a felony will occur.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 2:33:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By Homeinvader:
Copying someone else's trust document is a new low. Quicken/Willmaker generated "McTrusts" are one thing, but I have no idea what to call this practice.

Quicken and Willmaker trusts are becoming the subprime loans of the NFA world and I think the consequences will be as severe. The utter lack of practical knowledge afforded by software trusts -not to mention this new practice- will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of seizures and confiscations of NFA firearms as bad decisions and legal ignorance come to fruition in time. Most people cannot see past acquiring their NFA toy and mistakenly believe an approved Form 4 establishes the unerring and continued legality of their NFA ownership.

See an attorney, ask questions.


Have you ever used the software? I did a software trust, and everything was thoroughly explained throughout the process. I studied all of the legal documentation that was available, and have a good understanding of everything in the trust. You can ask any question that you could ask an attorney. If you take your time and do your homework, it's not that complicated. Dropping $300 on a lawyer won't make you any wiser, and doesn't guarantee it's going to be right anyway. I don't know what you think an attorney could have done differently.


Not saying the Quicken trust is invalid, I'm saying they were not drafted or ever intended to handle the complexities of NFA ownership. In the absence of legal advice from an attorney who could otherwise advise on a person's specific situation, people are making up rules as they go. I see it almost ever day on these and other boards. Quicken just doesn't provide the insight that should accompany the document.

Combine this with the seemingly common practice of adding shooting buddies as trustees in order to facilitate some bizarre need to share. This is causing a conflict of interest that will bring down the house. Trustees are there to distribute the assets of the trust upon the death of the grantor. Speaking generally, I'm sure most appointed trustees of this sort do not understand their responsibilities here and in time this is where we'll see the collapse. It was fun and games while you were alive to advise, but now you're not and they're lost, legally speaking. They'll make a mistake either of action or inaction and a felony will occur.


There really are no complexities associated with a trust for NFA ownership. A trust is a trust, whether for a can, or real estate. As long as you make mature decisions setting up your trust, there is no problem. You need to inform and consult the people listed as to their responsibilities. Beneficiaries need to know what they are being given, and what their responsibilities of ownership are. Like you said, listing shooting buddies as trustees is a stupid idea, but you shouldn't need to pay a lawyer to tell you that. You should do your homework, and take NFA ownership as seriously as it should be taken. Having $25 software that can do what an attorney wants $300-$600 dollars to do, shouldn't be looked upon as a bad thing, (unless you're an attorney). It's written by people that know what they're doing, it's state law specific, and updated regularly. In fact, it's probably what lawyers use. My sister is a high level CPA for Ernst & Young. All she does is millionaire's taxes. She uses Turbotax. The system will police itself. If people start losing their stuff, word will get out, but it hasn't happened yet. But, as previously stated, if you are a moron, please consult an attorney.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 5:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 5:38:29 PM EDT by SkiingSEAL]

"There really are no complexities associated with a trust for NFA ownership. A trust is a trust, whether for a can, or real estate. As long as you make mature decisions setting up your trust, there is no problem. You need to inform and consult the people listed as to their responsibilities. Beneficiaries need to know what they are being given, and what their responsibilities of ownership are. Like you said, listing shooting buddies as trustees is a stupid idea, but you shouldn't need to pay a lawyer to tell you that. You should do your homework, and take NFA ownership as seriously as it should be taken. Having $25 software that can do what an attorney wants $300-$600 dollars to do, shouldn't be looked upon as a bad thing, (unless you're an attorney). It's written by people that know what they're doing, it's state law specific, and updated regularly. In fact, it's probably what lawyers use. My sister is a high level CPA for Ernst & Young. All she does is millionaire's taxes. She uses Turbotax. The system will police itself. If people start losing their stuff, word will get out, but it hasn't happened yet. But, as previously stated, if you are a moron, please consult an attorney.[/quote]"

This! Trusts are not hard. I just used crayons and finger paint and sent it in with no problems. The ATF liked my colorful approach and because of that took less time.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:26:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2012 6:27:41 PM EDT by bigcbass]
There really are no complexities associated with a trust for NFA ownership. A trust is a trust, whether for a can, or real estate. . . . In fact, it's probably what lawyers use. My sister is a high level CPA for Ernst & Young. All she does is millionaire's taxes. She uses Turbotax. The system will police itself. If people start losing their stuff, word will get out, but it hasn't happened yet. But, as previously stated, if you are a moron, please consult an attorney.


No lawyer that I know uses Willmaker and I know I certainly don't. And I can promise you, not all trust are created equal. There are specific provisions that are desirable for NFA ownership.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:48:34 PM EDT
If it matters, I gave a lawyer a copy of the MD Shooter trust to try to help him (the lawyer) write a trust for me. The lawyer did not approve of several things in the MD trust. He said a lot of it was standard boiler plate trust writing but there were a lot of things missing that needed to be included. Some of the things missing were specific to my state but when I read the MD Shooter trust after creating mine, I would highly suggest getting a lawyer to write the trust even if you live in MD.

I don't have any first hand experience with Quicken trusts so I can only repeat what I've heard about them.

I will end with this:
When I started my trust project I thought it would be a simple process with simple laws. I probably would've gone with Quicken if I didn't know a lawyer. In the end, I'm very glad I went with the lawyer instead of going with a poorly written internet example or a generic software trust. There are complex state laws dealing with trusts that I didn't have any clue about. I didn't even know my state had a whole section of vast laws dealing with trusts. I truly believe that someday down the round the ATF will review trusts in detail and void any poorly written/illegal trusts. This may not happen for another 15 years or until the item is going to a beneficiary and the ATF looks at the trust then, but I feel trusts will be reviewed in detail someday.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 6:56:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SkiingSEAL:

"There really are no complexities associated with a trust for NFA ownership. A trust is a trust, whether for a can, or real estate. As long as you make mature decisions setting up your trust, there is no problem. You need to inform and consult the people listed as to their responsibilities. Beneficiaries need to know what they are being given, and what their responsibilities of ownership are. Like you said, listing shooting buddies as trustees is a stupid idea, but you shouldn't need to pay a lawyer to tell you that. You should do your homework, and take NFA ownership as seriously as it should be taken. Having $25 software that can do what an attorney wants $300-$600 dollars to do, shouldn't be looked upon as a bad thing, (unless you're an attorney). It's written by people that know what they're doing, it's state law specific, and updated regularly. In fact, it's probably what lawyers use. My sister is a high level CPA for Ernst & Young. All she does is millionaire's taxes. She uses Turbotax. The system will police itself. If people start losing their stuff, word will get out, but it hasn't happened yet. But, as previously stated, if you are a moron, please consult an attorney.
"

This! Trusts are not hard. I just used crayons and finger paint and sent it in with no problems. The ATF liked my colorful approach and because of that took less time.[/quote]

I hope your finger paint trust complies with all of OH's trust laws:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/58
Link Posted: 1/2/2012 3:06:35 AM EDT
If I planned to invest in thousands of dollars worth of NFA items, I must admit that I would have taken a different approach, and used and experienced attorney. In my personal case, I'm only interested in owning one or two suppressors. The total value of property will never exceed $1k. The only experienced attorney I could find in my area wanted $600 to set up a trust so that I could buy a $300 can. As for special provisions regarding NFA items, I can understand the advantage of having language in the trust that insures that actions taken in the disposition of my property are in compliance with the NFA, but I have full confidence in the other parties named in my trust. Certainly, a DIY trust is not right for everyone. When I started the process, I was completely ignorant on the subject, but I took my time, and read a lot. By the time I was finished, I understood every part of the document. I wouldn't have signed it otherwise. Copying another person's trust would not have gotten me there. Like I said, I started by looking at the MD_shooter's trust, but decided that that was a bad idea.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 12:58:45 AM EDT
I'm in the same boat OP. I am getting quite discouraged. I see A LOT of people on here with class III stuff on trusts, but no one has done a detailed thread on forming a trust.

I too don't have the $$ to have a lawyer do it. The software things, some people says it's fine, others say No way, as we see in this thread.

I just wish someone would do a detailed how-to thread on this very thing. I certainly would if I knew what the hell I was doing, to help other people out
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:10:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 3:25:15 AM EDT by ske714]
Originally Posted By Chesh97:
I'm in the same boat OP. I am getting quite discouraged. I see A LOT of people on here with class III stuff on trusts, but no one has done a detailed thread on forming a trust.

I too don't have the $$ to have a lawyer do it. The software things, some people says it's fine, others say No way, as we see in this thread.

I just wish someone would do a detailed how-to thread on this very thing. I certainly would if I knew what the hell I was doing, to help other people out


There is lots of info out there for the googling. Here is an overview. My advice would be to read what you can find, then get the software and get started. As you come up with specific questions, ask. The hardest part for me was getting it formatted for printing, because I wanted to edit it to change the trust name. I use open office, and it kept moving the page breaks and renumbering the pages. The software even gives you instructions on getting this right.

ETA: more links
http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust
http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

Actually, here is the thread that I originally pulled those links from...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/266046_Good_NFA_Trust_FAQ_Link.html&page=1
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:23:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By Chesh97:
I'm in the same boat OP. I am getting quite discouraged. I see A LOT of people on here with class III stuff on trusts, but no one has done a detailed thread on forming a trust.

I too don't have the $$ to have a lawyer do it. The software things, some people says it's fine, others say No way, as we see in this thread.

I just wish someone would do a detailed how-to thread on this very thing. I certainly would if I knew what the hell I was doing, to help other people out


There is lots of info out there for the googling. Here is an overview. My advice would be to read what you can find, then get the software and get started. As you come up with specific questions, ask. The hardest part for me was getting it formatted for printing, because I wanted to edit it to change the trust name. I use open office, and it kept moving the page breaks and renumbering the pages. The software even gives you instructions on getting this right.

ETA: more links
http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust
http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

Actually, here is the thread that I originally pulled those links from...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/266046_Good_NFA_Trust_FAQ_Link.html&page=1


Thank you for those links. I really like the first one. Very detailed about the process.
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