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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/27/2001 9:24:21 PM EDT
If I was to buy a Glock 27, it not having the second strike feature, would I be hindering myself? I like the sig 239 and HK USPC, but they are about an inch taller that the baby Glock. Are expensive defense rounds ever really going to misfire?
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 9:28:26 PM EDT
Never had premium ammo misfire, Federal Hi-Shok and Hydra Shock, Remington Golden Sabre. Have seen bad primers in Cor-Bon and the PMC stuff whatever theyre calling it this week. But ask yourself if the round didnt go off on the first strike how much good is striking it again going to do? Tap, Rack, Bang baby!
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 9:45:03 PM EDT
Enigma - I have a HK .45C and a G27 that I use for carry. I am not a Glock fan. However, I carry the G27 considerablely more than the .45C. It is a much more convenient and discreet weapon.

FWIW - last winter we would all get together once a week for some practice indoors. Each week one of the LEOs would drop to a knee 5 or 6 times a night and do a tap rack bang b/c his duty ammo failed - yes, duty ammo. BTW - he was quick - as in he had lots of practice.

Link Posted: 11/1/2001 9:18:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIX:
Enigma - I have a HK .45C and a G27 that I use for carry. I am not a Glock fan. However, I carry the G27 considerablely more than the .45C. It is a much more convenient and discreet weapon.

FWIW - last winter we would all get together once a week for some practice indoors. Each week one of the LEOs would drop to a knee 5 or 6 times a night and do a tap rack bang b/c his duty ammo failed - yes, duty ammo. BTW - he was quick - as in he had lots of practice.




Was his duty ammo Cor-Bon? if not what brand?
Link Posted: 11/1/2001 9:40:02 PM EDT
If it is your life, why take a chance with a round that didnt work the firs time. Rack it again.
GG
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 5:52:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 9:13:40 AM EDT
I have a Glock 27, and it has only failed to go bang ONCE. That was, I believe, shot 12. And that was my own fault because I did not take the time to lube the gun up before taking it to the range because I was in a hurry and the round got caught on the feed ramp, keeping the slide open. A slit tap on the back of the gun fixed it and the proceeded to work properly through the rest of the first 200 rounds.

I've fed it Winchester white box, Remington UMC, Black Hills, and Federal Hydrashoks with every round firing as it should. I haven't found ammo yet that it doesn't like.

God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:46:33 AM EDT
What was the brand?

Winchester
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:52:36 AM EDT
If round ever misfires, clear that round, don't attempt to restrike it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 11:54:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Glo1:
But ask yourself if the round didnt go off on the first strike how much good is striking it again going to do? Tap, Rack, Bang baby!



Actually, there is an 80% chance the round will fire. The immidiate response to a no bang is a second trigger pull. It takes a fraction of a second and is an automatic impulse. The reason the glock was not allowed into the m9 trials was because it lacked this feature. The glock 27 is a good gun that many carry, but my personal preference is a gun that has a second strike capability.
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 1:24:15 PM EDT
Glo1-
isn't cor-bon considered premium ammo?
have you or someone you know had numerous problems of it not firing? If so was it the same person with the same handgun?
thanks, erik
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 1:55:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 2:55:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Glo1:
But ask yourself if the round didnt go off on the first strike how much good is striking it again going to do? Tap, Rack, Bang baby!



Actually, there is an 80% chance the round will fire. The immidiate response to a no bang is a second trigger pull. It takes a fraction of a second and is an automatic impulse. The reason the glock was not allowed into the m9 trials was because it lacked this feature. The glock 27 is a good gun that many carry, but my personal preference is a gun that has a second strike capability.



No! There is a 50% chance it will shoot, because it will or it wont shoot, and the Army knew way before the trials that the beretta would win.
GG
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:27:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:
If round ever misfires, clear that round, don't attempt to restrike it.



Regardless - you will do what you practice.

I own and carry HK and glock. I only practice T/R/B - had a hard primer in a night match recently with my .45C. I did not pull the trigger again (although I could have), I dropped to a knee - T/R/B.

Remember if you dont practice - your reaction will be: standing there muzzle pointed sideways, going "huh?"
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 6:42:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 6:43:26 AM EDT
You're losing me here.

Why NOT pull the tigger a second time while reaching for the slide and moving?

Second strike capability is a benefit, not a liability. Good cartrides misfire in gun fights held in other than clean-range conditions. Plus if your struck or diabled it's a lot easier to attempt then racking the slide one handed. You'll not have two hands available for lots of shooting, especially if you're hit.

First thing to do on any misfire is ensure the safety is off and pull the trigger again while you're reaching for the slide -- if you can.

Tap, rack, bang is a left over from pistols which have no second strike capability. Tap, rack, bang is also not the correct procedure. You need to insert "Observe" in the middle of the rack sequence. If no case or cartridge comes out you need to inspect the chamber to see if there's a cartridge stuck in there as releasing the slide (or charging handle or op rod) will really jam her if the chamber isn't empty. All this takes a LOT longer than pulling the trigger the second time.

The corect procedure is to ensure the safety is off, then a second trigger pull, then the clearing drill which includes observing case ejection or empty chamber. Glocks and SIGs have no safeties, but with pistols like the HK and Berettas you can pull the trigger all you want, and tap-rack-click all you want, but they won't go bang unless the safety of off.

Cor Bon is premium ammunition only in price. Most of it will not pass FBI penetration and expansion criteria.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 9:48:30 PM EDT
Why drop to one knee for TRB?
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 2:35:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2001 3:21:45 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
You're losing me here.

Why NOT pull the tigger a second time while reaching for the slide and moving?

Second strike capability is a benefit, not a liability. Good cartrides misfire in gun fights held in other than clean-range conditions. Plus if your struck or diabled it's a lot easier to attempt then racking the slide one handed. You'll not have two hands available for lots of shooting, especially if you're hit.

First thing to do on any misfire is ensure the safety is off and pull the trigger again while you're reaching for the slide -- if you can.

Tap, rack, bang is a left over from pistols which have no second strike capability. Tap, rack, bang is also not the correct procedure. You need to insert "Observe" in the middle of the rack sequence. If no case or cartridge comes out you need to inspect the chamber to see if there's a cartridge stuck in there as releasing the slide (or charging handle or op rod) will really jam her if the chamber isn't empty. All this takes a LOT longer than pulling the trigger the second time.

The corect procedure is to ensure the safety is off, then a second trigger pull, then the clearing drill which includes observing case ejection or empty chamber. Glocks and SIGs have no safeties, but with pistols like the HK and Berettas you can pull the trigger all you want, and tap-rack-click all you want, but they won't go bang unless the safety of off.

Cor Bon is premium ammunition only in price. Most of it will not pass FBI penetration and expansion criteria.

-- Chuck



If the round don't go the first time why would it go the second? If the primer is bad and needs two hits, what is the powder like? If you are in a gunfight, you generaly have to put the gun, gun hand, and an eye into an exposed position to fire. So when you are postitioned to shoot a LIVE target that target will have an opportunity to shoot at whatever you expose, even if you are using cover properly. Do you want to expose yourself, to try to fire a round that might go?? How good will your aim be on that "iffy" round? Is there even a round in the chamber?

T-R-B preferably using cover for the T-R.

EDITED TO ADD:

I have fired thousands of rounds, M-16A1, M-60 gunner 2+ years, and 1911-A1 while in the military. Berreta 92, S+W 4506, and S+W 3913 in the past, with reloads and several different types of factory ammo. Current guns Oly-M4gery, Glock 21, and Glock 30. Surplus and new ammo for the AR, all new factory ammo for the Glocks.

Can't think of EVER having a round fail to go off when the "hammer fell". Have had failure to feeds, double feeds, (M-60 would double feed so hard 2 round would start to go into the chamber and the cases for both would get mangled) and failure to go fully into battery.

Don't only invest in a good defensive handgun, get good ammo too. Use the same type of rounds for practice and carry. Don't scrimp on the ammo, then it will be unlikely that you will ever have an ammo related failure to fire.

Link Posted: 11/4/2001 7:04:14 AM EDT
Let me throw in my $.02 worth. Do you only own one gun and one action type? Do you ever think you might need to shoot something other than the one gun you do own?

That is the primary reason to practice "Tap (hit the magazine base to ensure it is firmly seated in the weapon), Rack/Flip (rack the slide while flipping the gun to the side to ensure the round is ejected. Also the drill for a type 2 malfunction), and evaluate, then Bang if necessary.

You can only do the "second strike" if you have a DA auto. Obviously, it doesn't work for any of the single action, Glocks or even a few makes of DA guns. If you practice a common drill, you can use it effectively with all makes.

As for pressing the trigger for a 2nd strike while reaching for the slide, what do you hope to do? Your support hand is no longer supporting. I seriously doubt that you have a sight picture or sight alignment so where is that round going to go, assuming it goes off at all? If it doesn't go off, what happened to the "Tap" part of the drill? If it does go off (big surprise, no hit on your opponent, greater muzzle flip because your support hand is not in contact with the firing hand), you can expect an even slower followup shot as you re-aquire a grip.

If you practice the T/R/F and evaluate response to a misfire (Type 1 malfunction), you can complete it in less time than it takes to say "Tap, Rack, Flip". Less than a second. I'd certainly consider that preferable to maybe getting the round to fire with a second trigger pull, and then have to T/R/F anyway.

Just to end, I say T/R/F because you really don't want firing the weapon to be a programmed response. What if your opponent dropped his weapon and was no longer a threat? You just executed him and could be charged with murder. What if your opponent was no longer visible and your programmed shot nailed a bystander, etc? Same thing. Malfunction clearances should be programmed responses that are practiced and drilled till they are reflexive acts, but the actual act of firing should always be a conscious decision.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 4:33:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Why drop to one knee for TRB?




The idea is to either seek cover or reduce your size to lessen you chances of getting hit.

Chuck: as far as "not understanding" and "thats not a correct procedure":

Like I said I carry two different types of weapons.

You do what you train to do. Observation - in a perfect world, yes if you have cover, time and light it would be a good extra move.

However, as my post relating to a night match indicated - one will not always have such luxury.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 7:01:50 PM EDT
Aren't you suppose to wait five seconds or something before ejecting a "dud" round to avoid a hang fire??
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