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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 8/27/2009 7:11:08 PM EST
anyone know anything about these..father in law has one someone wants to sell.. the 7.5 swiss... they want 450... He said it looks brand new and has matching numbers and low serial numbers...

years made??? numbers are 245655

good to shoot or looks??

Link Posted: 8/27/2009 7:28:20 PM EST
now would it be safe to jsut gets smoe swiss 7.5 ammo and shoot it??? He said the rifle is like new.. but just wondering if its like shooting new 30-06 thru a garand, not good to do..
Link Posted: 8/27/2009 7:33:30 PM EST
Can you be more specific? The schmidt rubin refers to the G1911 or 96/11, they are very long. There are also K11 schmidt rubin carbines and the K31, also a carbine, but not technically a schmidt rubin. Swissrifles.com has info on the serial numbers and the different types. 450 is high end for a K31, but they have been going up cost wise. Lots of variables can influence price. J&G has them, Alan's Armory usually has some. Simpson Ltd. carries quite a few of all types, their prices would be at the high end.
Link Posted: 8/27/2009 7:37:48 PM EST
My father in law lives out of town... he didnt even know what it was.. went thru the garands, mosin m1903, finally sent him a pic of the schmidt and said it was it..... Said it is long and has brass hood over the muzzlehttp://http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131229410

see if this works, I sent him this and he said its like this but much better shape..
Link Posted: 8/27/2009 7:40:59 PM EST
he said its a guy he knows and he wants 450, from what I see its too much..
Link Posted: 8/27/2009 7:52:32 PM EST
NOw reading at the swiss riffles website, it said there are K31 floating around in 308 and 30-06.... HUM?? the guy told the father in law it was 30 caliber??
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 12:09:13 AM EST
Seems rather pricey to me.
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 4:05:14 AM EST
450 is too much for a run of the mill Gew 1911 or 96/11, especially if the caliber has been changed.
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 5:48:45 AM EST
I thought it was too much as well.... Just not sure of the caliber... He said the guy said it was 30 cal, but I dont know.... He said its in great shape... The one on gunbroker that sold for over three hundren, the father in law says the one he has is far better......

Is there some knd of special model or one that could be worth more...??? I told him not to buy it, unless it took it somwhere and had it valued.... Some guns you see out there are worth 400, 600 or whatever then you see certain models/issues that are way Up there..Just dont know if this is the case with these..
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 5:54:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2009 5:58:51 AM EST by streck]
Originally Posted By HDBob:
NOw reading at the swiss riffles website, it said there are K31 floating around in 308 and 30-06.... HUM?? the guy told the father in law it was 30 caliber??


The 7.5 swiss is, basically, a 30 caliber....it's just not a .30-06 or .308 Winchester....The bullet itself, is a .30 while the profile of the cartridges (the brass) are different...This guy is technically correct even if the barrel hasn't been changed.

Be sure to ask which specific cartridge it is chambered for.

Check this link: LINK


Below left to right: 2 versions of 7x57...7.5x55 (GP11)....308 Win.....223
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 6:11:34 AM EST
$450 is definitely on the high side if it's a K31. AIM has some of the pre-K31 Schmidt Rubins in the $350 range:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Surplus_and_Used_Long_Guns.html

Link Posted: 8/28/2009 6:28:41 AM EST
My money is on it being a K311955 manufactured.

If it is in near new condition, #'s matching and in the original caliber then $450 would not be on the high side. If it is this, then K31's in this condition can easily go for $500-$800.

Keep in mind all the deals folks are getting on the $200-$250 K31's are the last batches to come through and are not nearly as nice as what was imported throughout the years and most don't have complete #'s matching parts.

Finding an all #'s matching K31 in near new condition is worth every penny of $450. If you don't want it IM me and I will buy it
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 6:30:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2009 6:32:44 AM EST by haLfLiFe]
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
$450 is definitely on the high side if it's a K31. AIM has some of the pre-K31 Schmidt Rubins in the $350 range:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Surplus_and_Used_Long_Guns.html



The rifles listed on AIM are K11's and 96/11's based off the Rubin Schmidt design. For $350 I would spend my money with Simpson LTD, for another $100 you will get a way more all around solid rifle with matching #'s and the bluing & stock will make AIM's look bad, that I promise. There is a reason Simpson LTD stays in business because they pretty much only sell higher end pieces.
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 7:03:20 AM EST
thanks guys... he said he was already committed, but didnt pay him yet...
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 7:21:58 AM EST
It could be, I wish I cold get a pic of it, he sent one on the phone, but cant tell...he just said it looks new and looks like all the parts have the same serial number.... in the 2XXXXX range.... looks just like the one on gunbroker I posted in the earlier post, but he said its far better shape....

So If He got some ammo from J & G, think it would be safe to shoot??
Link Posted: 8/28/2009 10:14:55 AM EST
If it is 7.5x55, and not one of the conversions to other calibers, then you will be fine. Caliber should be on the barrel. Before you buy, I would suggest you get some ammo and check the muzzle. It should not swallow the bullet. This has been a problem with some of the older rifles. Easily corrected, but still needs to be tested.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 8:22:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By HDBob:
NOw reading at the swiss riffles website, it said there are K31 floating around in 308 and 30-06.... HUM?? the guy told the father in law it was 30 caliber??


Those are VERY rare. The conversions were done by Hämmerli in Switzerland, mostly for Swiss shooting clubs in foreign countries. I believe the .30-06 conversions were done for the Mexico City Swiss club, and there were only 10 or 12 made. Due to cartridge length, these are of necessity single-loaders. On the other hand, many 96/11 and 1911 rifles and carbines were converted in the US to .308 and .30-30 back in the sixties. Most of these were "sporters", with the barrels and stocks shortened. A Hämmerli K31 conversion in .308 or .30-06 is highly sought-after and very valuable. A 1911-ish "sporter" is not.

The 7,5x55mm Swiss cartridge IS .30 caliber. The bullet is .308 diameter. The difference in the designation has to do with the way Europeans measure bore size (lands vs. grooves). Same reason the 8mm Mauser is known in Europe as 7,92x57mm.
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 10:10:08 AM EST
the rife he has is not a sporter, well at least I dont think so, he said it is very long, like 4 feet..

thanks for all the info..
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 2:02:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2009 2:02:30 PM EST by patrickcudd]
Originally Posted By GTwannabe:
$450 is definitely on the high side if it's a K31. AIM has some of the pre-K31 Schmidt Rubins in the $350 range:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Surplus_and_Used_Long_Guns.html



I miss the $89 days of the K31!!!

Glad I bought 3 at that price!!!!

Link Posted: 8/30/2009 2:14:58 PM EST
If it's really long it's probably a 1911. I have one and it has a 30.5" barrel. It shoots 7.5x55. I believe the K31s were the rifles some rechambered to .308. That is not considered a good idea though. The .308 is a much higher pressure round than the 7.5x55.
Do a search on the auction sites for a Swiss 1911 and see if they look like what he is buying. That price would be about right.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 7:50:33 PM EST
The Hämmerli K31s in .308 are perfectly safe to shoot, as they were re-barrelled with Hämmerli-made dedicated .308 barrels. The 1911 and K11 "sporter" conversions may be another matter, as they were only rechambered 7.5 barrels. That conversion involved shortening the barrels by cutting off part of the original chamber end, and rethreading the barrel. Due to the way the K31 barrel is machined, that type of conversion is not possible.
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 10:12:36 AM EST
I've got some old advertisements for surplus rifles, and they often have "sporterized" Schmidt Rubin rifles in them. 7.5 Swiss was a tough caliber to get back in the day, and many places like Ye Olde Hunter's Lodge converted these rifles to more readily available calibers, like .308.

As stated, the safety of some of these conversions may be suspect. I've fired one in .308 with no ill effects, but its owner only paid $60 for it.

The Hammereli rifles are another matter entirely. They'd be a gem in anyone's collection!

As to the cost of a G11, 96/11, or K11, I believe AIM Surplus is setting the market price on those currently, so $450 seems a bit high, but if it's really nice....
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 4:31:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hetzer1:
The Hämmerli K31s in .308 are perfectly safe to shoot, as they were re-barrelled with Hämmerli-made dedicated .308 barrels. The 1911 and K11 "sporter" conversions may be another matter, as they were only rechambered 7.5 barrels. That conversion involved shortening the barrels by cutting off part of the original chamber end, and rethreading the barrel. Due to the way the K31 barrel is machined, that type of conversion is not possible.


I am not as familiar with the Hemmerli rifles as I should be. Do they use the stock bolt?
From what I remember reading several years ago about the rechambered K31s the bolt lockup was the concern- not the barrel. I believe all that was required was the chamber to be cut to the .308 Win. Those were the rifles the concern was about.

Jim

Link Posted: 8/31/2009 5:21:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By HDBob:
he said its a guy he knows and he wants 450, from what I see its too much..


To be worth that much it would have to include a matching sn. bayonette and a sling and the rest of the accesories that it was issued with.
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 6:18:12 PM EST
I am still thinking it may be a 1911. Mine is worth about $350.00- $400.00. They are selling for a little more than the K31s and 96/11s, etc.
It would have to be in excellant condition to be worth what he is asking.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 9:04:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2009 9:06:43 PM EST by haLfLiFe]
The first thing I hear wrong is that K11's, 96/11's etc being worth more than a K31. This is not true, not by today's standards or yesterdays. There are K31's in amazing condition selling for $700-1K+ from reputable distributors, and they sell for that figure to the right buyer of course but the Rubin Schmidt rifles will not pull those prices on their best day. The only Rubin Schmidt rifles selling for more money are ones in decent shape and comparing it to a very well worn K31 with possible mismatched #'s.

The second thing I am hearing is that AIM is setting the standard on what these Rubin Schmidt rifles are worth. This is true and untrue and the same time. They are setting the standard for well worn rifles that may or may not be #'s matching and will more than likely have a stock repair or two. Now if you pay $100 more you find yourself buying one in beautiful condition that is not comparable to AIM's by a long shot.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 8:35:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Originally Posted By Hetzer1:
The Hämmerli K31s in .308 are perfectly safe to shoot, as they were re-barrelled with Hämmerli-made dedicated .308 barrels. The 1911 and K11 "sporter" conversions may be another matter, as they were only rechambered 7.5 barrels. That conversion involved shortening the barrels by cutting off part of the original chamber end, and rethreading the barrel. Due to the way the K31 barrel is machined, that type of conversion is not possible.


I am not as familiar with the Hemmerli rifles as I should be. Do they use the stock bolt?
From what I remember reading several years ago about the rechambered K31s the bolt lockup was the concern- not the barrel. I believe all that was required was the chamber to be cut to the .308 Win. Those were the rifles the concern was about.

Jim


The 7.62x51 NATO is a shorter case than the 7.5x55 Swiss. You cannot just re-cut the chamber. The chamber has to be shortened by removing material from the breech-end of the barrel. Due to the way the K31 barrel is machined, it's not possible to do such a conversion. The only .308 conversions I am aware of (other than the purpose-built Hämmerli rifles) are done by Larry Racine. He uses the breech stub of a K31 barrel and threads a new barrel into it. And his work isn't cheap.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 9:11:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By haLfLiFe:
The first thing I hear wrong is that K11's, 96/11's etc being worth more than a K31. This is not true, not by today's standards or yesterdays. There are K31's in amazing condition selling for $700-1K+ from reputable distributors, and they sell for that figure to the right buyer of course but the Rubin Schmidt rifles will not pull those prices on their best day. The only Rubin Schmidt rifles selling for more money are ones in decent shape and comparing it to a very well worn K31 with possible mismatched #'s.

The second thing I am hearing is that AIM is setting the standard on what these Rubin Schmidt rifles are worth. This is true and untrue and the same time. They are setting the standard for well worn rifles that may or may not be #'s matching and will more than likely have a stock repair or two. Now if you pay $100 more you find yourself buying one in beautiful condition that is not comparable to AIM's by a long shot.


I beg to differ. The only time K31s were worth more (in the USA) than comparable-conditon S-Rs was before the K31s were released from war reserve. Before that, K31 were almost unobtainable, and commanded VERY high prices. ALSO, S-R Private-issue rifles will DEFINITELY sell for more money than K31s, as will S-R Kadettes, and probably most non-import stamped S-Rs (virtually all K31 are import marked). That aside, field-grade K31s are still obtainable for around $200 if you know where to look. Compare the production numbers, K11 vs. K31. Just working off the top of my head and if memory serves, it seems like there were only 37,000 K11 produced. Compare that to 500,000 K31s. K11 will ALWAYS be more collectable, without even considering the amount that were butchered into "sporters".
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 6:41:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2009 6:49:12 AM EST by haLfLiFe]
Originally Posted By Hetzer1:
Originally Posted By haLfLiFe:
The first thing I hear wrong is that K11's, 96/11's etc being worth more than a K31. This is not true, not by today's standards or yesterdays. There are K31's in amazing condition selling for $700-1K+ from reputable distributors, and they sell for that figure to the right buyer of course but the Rubin Schmidt rifles will not pull those prices on their best day. The only Rubin Schmidt rifles selling for more money are ones in decent shape and comparing it to a very well worn K31 with possible mismatched #'s.

The second thing I am hearing is that AIM is setting the standard on what these Rubin Schmidt rifles are worth. This is true and untrue and the same time. They are setting the standard for well worn rifles that may or may not be #'s matching and will more than likely have a stock repair or two. Now if you pay $100 more you find yourself buying one in beautiful condition that is not comparable to AIM's by a long shot.


I beg to differ. The only time K31s were worth more (in the USA) than comparable-conditon S-Rs was before the K31s were released from war reserve. Before that, K31 were almost unobtainable, and commanded VERY high prices. ALSO, S-R Private-issue rifles will DEFINITELY sell for more money than K31s, as will S-R Kadettes, and probably most non-import stamped S-Rs (virtually all K31 are import marked). That aside, field-grade K31s are still obtainable for around $200 if you know where to look. Compare the production numbers, K11 vs. K31. Just working off the top of my head and if memory serves, it seems like there were only 37,000 K11 produced. Compare that to 500,000 K31s. K11 will ALWAYS be more collectable, without even considering the amount that were butchered into "sporters".


I do respect your words but I was only speaking of what your seeing for sale as far as current dealers selling K31's, K11's, etc. etc. and today's prices not yesterdays.

Having that said I do not use AIM as a corner stone for current market prices on collector grade rifles, this is what I use Simpsons LTD for. If you look on SImpsons any collector grade or close too K31 is selling for more than any other Swiss rifle they currently sell including the K11, 96/11, Kadet rifles, 1889, 1911 and all the S-R's.

If you throw out a K31 sniper model then it surpasses all other Swiss rifles in price.

I don't agree with your statement on the S-R's Private series being worth more than a K31, you did not compare apples to apples because your comparing it to a non P-series K31. If you compare the 2 P-series side by side I have always seen a K31 P- series sell for more than a S-R P-series.

I have 2 non-import marked K31's, while I do agree most come with import marks there are a decent amount that did not get them.

As far as private issue R-S's I have not seen one sell for more than a P-series K31. Not to say it can't happen, just never seen it happen.

You are right about what is more collectible and what is not, but the market is set by what the buyer is willing to pay and I have just not seen the prices of S-R's demanding more than K31's in comparable collector condition.

Lastly, there were 184,200 K11's produced.
There were a total of 582,230 K31's.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 8:36:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By haLfLiFe:
Originally Posted By Hetzer1:
Originally Posted By haLfLiFe:
The first thing I hear wrong is that K11's, 96/11's etc being worth more than a K31. This is not true, not by today's standards or yesterdays. There are K31's in amazing condition selling for $700-1K+ from reputable distributors, and they sell for that figure to the right buyer of course but the Rubin Schmidt rifles will not pull those prices on their best day. [span style='font-weight: bold;']span]

The second thing I am hearing is that AIM is setting the standard on what these Rubin Schmidt rifles are worth. This is true and untrue and the same time. They are setting the standard for well worn rifles that may or may not be #'s matching and will more than likely have a stock repair or two. Now if you pay $100 more you find yourself buying one in beautiful condition that is not comparable to AIM's by a long shot.


I beg to differ. The only time K31s were worth more (in the USA) than comparable-conditon S-Rs was before the K31s were released from war reserve. Before that, K31 were almost unobtainable, and commanded VERY high prices. ALSO, S-R Private-issue rifles will DEFINITELY sell for more money than K31s, as will S-R Kadettes, and probably most non-import stamped S-Rs (virtually all K31 are import marked). That aside, field-grade K31s are still obtainable for around $200 if you know where to look. Compare the production numbers, K11 vs. K31. Just working off the top of my head and if memory serves, it seems like there were only 37,000 K11 produced. Compare that to 500,000 K31s. K11 will ALWAYS be more collectable, without even considering the amount that were butchered into "sporters".


I do respect your words but I was only speaking of what your seeing for sale as far as current dealers selling K31's, K11's, etc. etc. and today's prices not yesterdays.

Having that said I do not use AIM as a corner stone for current market prices on collector grade rifles, this is what I use Simpsons LTD for. If you look on SImpsons any collector grade or close too K31 is selling for more than any other Swiss rifle they currently sell including the K11, 96/11, Kadet rifles, 1889, 1911 and all the S-R's.

If you throw out a K31 sniper model then it surpasses all other Swiss rifles in price.

I don't agree with your statement on the S-R's Private series being worth more than a K31, you did not compare apples to apples because your comparing it to a non P-series K31. If you compare the 2 P-series side by side I have always seen a K31 P- series sell for more than a S-R P-series.

I have 2 non-import marked K31's, while I do agree most come with import marks there are a decent amount that did not get them.

As far as private issue R-S's I have not seen one sell for more than a P-series K31. Not to say it can't happen, just never seen it happen.

You are right about what is more collectible and what is not, but the market is set by what the buyer is willing to pay and I have just not seen the prices of S-R's demanding more than K31's in comparable collector condition.

Lastly, there were 184,200 K11's produced.
There were a total of 582,230 K31's.


On the production numbers, yes, I was wrong about that. It was late and I was too lazy to verify first. I knew the numbers for the K11 were less. And one can use whatever rule you are comfortable with, but I have always considered Simpson's price to be on the high side. Back when SAMCO had REALLY nice K31s for $139 (same time AIM, SOG, et al were selling K31 for $89-$99), Simpsons was asking $200-$300. As to comparing the price on P-series S-R's to P-series K31s, respectfully, that was not what you stated.

The only Rubin Schmidt rifles selling for more money are ones in decent shape and comparing it to a very well worn K31 with possible mismatched #'s.


That statement may have been interpreted in a broader manner than you intended, but that was the gist of my disagreement.

Not that any of the afore-going matters in the least. I like them all. I wish K31s were still selling at the prices they were a few years ago. Then we wouldn't need to disagree!
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 4:21:34 PM EST
I hear you on that. We disagree but only slightly, and yes my sentence left too much room for interpretation.

I hear a lot of folks saying Simpsons prices are high, but here are a few examples of my experiences with them:

1) I bought a near mint condition 1954 K31 with Diopter rear sight for $500. That is on the high side, but you could not come close to finding one in this condition and ones even close to it on gunbroker etc. were selling right around it $400-$550. Anything I have seen in the last few years that met this condition was selling for $250-$350, but the price has gone up when less are coming in and the condition of the one's coming in are not really respectable condition wise and rarely have matching #'s. Plus this one I bought from them was not import marked.

2) My other purchase was a 1917 K11 that when comparing it to AIM's they have listed it was only $100 more so that put it at $450 and it was in 100 times better condition then what they have listed. AIM's had cracked and arsenal repaired stocks with lots of dents/dings and major bluing wear. The one I got from Simpons was not import marked, had a troop ID tag, was rated at 98% bluing and the stock was rated in excellent condition. When I received it there was no misinterpretation on their representation. All around for $100 I got a way more collectable rifle that will gain more value than one's in worse condition like AIM is selling.

I am always willing to spend a little more up front for a better investment and the feeling I get from owning a collector grade rifle is always more justifying to me over one that is not.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:05:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 6:06:49 AM EST by MJ1]
As always it will depend on condition then condition and condition.



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