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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/4/2002 7:27:36 PM EDT
Who thinks that a slendered case 7.62x39 or something in that range that would fit the AR15 thirty round mag and work with its bolt would be the ideal combat caliber for U.S Forces?
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 7:33:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IStormm:
Who thinks that a slendered case 7.62x39 or something in that range that would fit the AR15 thirty round mag and work with its bolt would be the ideal combat caliber for U.S Forces?



Not me. 7.62x39 has a very poor record of incapacitation in combat. If we were going to adapt a Russian caliber, I would rather go with 5.45x39, but that is like going from a Ford to a Mercury.
If we were going to change calibers, we would have to change weapons, and I think the only other serious contender would be 7.62x51.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 7:40:50 PM EDT
Actually, I was discussing the other day that the US is about due for a weapons system change. The M16 has been around for a loooooong time in military standards.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 7:41:52 PM EDT
6x?? mm ASSAULT RIFLE

Troy or Campy, where are you two guys to preach these words of wisdom?

7.62 is useful depending upon the rounds used. For instance, JHPs work far better incapacitating people than say FMJs; we assume not everyone will wear class III body armor.

RUMOR: Spec Ops have been using is a AR-15 variant made by Knight's that fires a 200 grain 7.62x39 Russian round. With a suppressor, this seems to be a lethal combo from the stuff I've read in SOF and a few other sites. It makes sense to use a big fat bullet out of a rifle with a suppressor. On the .223 SPR, I've learned on this very board that they're using 100+ grain "tungsten" bullets for a suppressed .223 rifle. Whether this is true or not, I do not know. I have never seen a tungsten rifle round.

Just my two cents,

themao
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 11:50:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:59:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By themao:
RUMOR: Spec Ops have been using is a AR-15 variant made by Knight's that fires a 200 grain 7.62x39 Russian round. With a suppressor, this seems to be a lethal combo from the stuff I've read in SOF and a few other sites.
Just my two cents,

themao



You might be thinking of the SR-47? (it was at the SHOT Show) The rifles are not in service, but we did build several samples that went out for T&E. They (the client) sent back their recommendations (read: complaints), and we're re-designing as necessary.

We are working on some other projects that use a 6mm projectile in a custom case.

More as it happens,
havoc
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:49:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
A 6.5x40mm round with a 120-140gr bullet would be an excellent, super-efficient round, and would fit right between the .223 and .308 in size and weight, yet have advantages over both of them.



But could you fire it out of a rebarrelled AR or would you have to build a whole new rifle?
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:00:49 AM EDT
I was thinking of the same lines of a 6mm round
for the M16.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:20:21 AM EDT
I thought we were working on a new infantry weapon already. I remember reading about it in the Rifleman a year ago at least. As I remember it was a G33 action encased in a plastic lower assembly, it had a titanium barrel with a SS liner, and no sights. It was mated to an upper that contained a new 20mm grenade launcher that used electronic rotational ranging grenades and incorporated a sighting unit that had thermal, night, laser, optical and electronic magnification. Does anyone else remember this one? I think they had functional prototypes over a year ago.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 7:23:20 AM EDT
The 6mm Remington with 100 grain bullet would be an awsome round in an AR type rifle I have used this round for years on deer, hogs and its very effective and flat. The 6mm Rem w/100 gr. bullet is almost identical in trajectory as the 7mm mag. w/ 150 gr. bullet, that is very flat. The 6 is slighty better than the .243 and packs a hell of a lot more punch than the 223. The main problem I think in changing is everyone in NATO would need to switch.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 8:11:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 4wheelingunner:
I thought we were working on a new infantry weapon already. I remember reading about it in the Rifleman a year ago at least. As I remember it was a G33 action encased in a plastic lower assembly, it had a titanium barrel with a SS liner, and no sights. It was mated to an upper that contained a new 20mm grenade launcher that used electronic rotational ranging grenades and incorporated a sighting unit that had thermal, night, laser, optical and electronic magnification. Does anyone else remember this one? I think they had functional prototypes over a year ago.



That's a G36, not G33. You're thinking of the OICW. I hope it flops. A 5.56 out of a 10" barrel will be useless out past 50 yards or so.

Too bad weapons designers know nothing about ballistics...
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 3:37:19 PM EDT
Personally for me I would like to see the military folks get the AR10. It would look and feel like a M16, and get the knock down power of the 7.62NATO.
OT:I have read in the current issue of Soldier of Fortune magazine, the USA soldiers in Afghanistan have to shoot their adversaries mutiple times.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 3:44:41 PM EDT
7.62x39 with a bad rap for not putting down men, I don't know about that statement
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:07:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
7.62x39 with a bad rap for not putting down men, I don't know about that statement



Shoot some things with it, then tell us what you think.
I've never seen 7.62x39 ball disrupt much flesh - just drills a hole through, even at close range.
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 5:13:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2002 5:15:21 PM EDT by Gun Guru]
Come on over, I bet it will drop you before I know it. Even at close range.
GG
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 12:39:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:14:10 AM EDT
7.62x39 is a beautiful round IMHO. The hollowpoint's however tend to be POS. they really do not act like real hollowpoints, get a softtip and those things will really tear up in flesh.

As for the thing made by Knight's, yea its the SR-47. I believe it was made at the request of people going into Afghanistan due to the common usage of the ak-47. Apparently, the SpecOps teams that went into the caves could only carry so much ammunition at a time for their M4's. Thus they requested an AR type weapon that could use Standard ak-47 type magazines that they find/recover while going into the caves. In other words, as long as you got an enemy, you got an unlimited source of ammo. Just pick up the magazines off the caches/dead guys. Pretty smart idea if you ask me, prob does beautiful work in those close corners. I remember getting excited about it because they might be produced for civillian sales, but then they I heard not. =oT bummer, that would have been one fine piece of machinery. Maybe if its successful though, a limited run might occur in the future!
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 1:29:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garmentless:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
7.62x39 with a bad rap for not putting down men, I don't know about that statement



Shoot some things with it, then tell us what you think.
I've never seen 7.62x39 ball disrupt much flesh - just drills a hole through, even at close range.



I have a friend who was shot two or three times with 7.62x39 while in Viet Nam. He said it just passed through him, in the worse case it broke a bone in his leg.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:59:08 AM EDT
All this talk of hollowpoint this soft tip that. Keep in mind the Geneva Convention banned militarys from using such shit. We, the US, will abide by this no matter how short sighted orwhat other counties do.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:13:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Steve:
All this talk of hollowpoint this soft tip that. Keep in mind the Geneva Convention banned militarys from using such shit. We, the US, will abide by this no matter how short sighted orwhat other counties do.



It wasn't the Geneva Convention. It was the Hague Accord.

Besides, the US never signed that treaty. We are not bound by it, we simply follow it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:05:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
It wasn't the Geneva Convention. It was the Hague Accord.

Besides, the US never signed that treaty. We are not bound by it, we simply follow it.



Boy! If only I had a nickel for everytime I heard that explained!
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:39:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 10:07:02 AM EDT by Belloc]

Originally Posted By Garmentless:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
7.62x39 with a bad rap for not putting down men, I don't know about that statement



Shoot some things with it, then tell us what you think.
I've never seen 7.62x39 ball disrupt much flesh - just drills a hole through, even at close range.



There was a link posted (somewhere on this site) to damage done by the 7.62. I will try t find it when I get back from work later. But basically the governments ban on AP made the round more lethal. Because the 7.62x39 had a steel core (because it was cheaper) it would not begin to tumble until something like 18 inches in balistic gelatin. Now all the 7.62x39 is lead core and tests have shown it to tumble after about 6 (I think) inches of penetration.
Big difference. On top of that we civies can use SP and such.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:02:14 PM EDT
Found it.

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000369.html

The 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet which has a copper-plated steel jacket covering a large steel core and a typical muzzle velocity of 2340 f/s. In tissue, it typically travels approximately 9.8 to 10.6" point forward before beginning significant yaw. Most uncomplicated wounds of the torso and extremities have small punctate entrance and exit wounds and exhibit minimal internal tissue disruption since the bullet does not deform or fragment and usually exits before yaw occurs. Total penetration is around 29.1”.

The 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ boat-tailed bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket surrounding an unhardened steel core and a small 5 mm long empty air-space under the bullet nose. Its typical muzzle velocity is 3066 f/s. In contrast to the older 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS which it replaced, the 5.45 x 39 mm M74 53 gr FMJ commonly exhibits very early yaw in tissue, at approximately 2.75", but no deformation or fragmentation. In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw allows the bullet to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration is approximately 21.6”.

As an aside, early yaw, similar to that exhibited by the 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ, is also produced with several other 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets, including the:

--Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing
--the U.S. commercially produced 7.62 x 39 mm 124 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which travel only 3.9" before yawing
--Chinese Norinco 7.62 x 39 mm 123 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which begin their yaw after only 2 to 2.5" of travel in tissue.

In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, their very early yaw allows these bullets to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects compared to the standard 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration of these bullets is around 24.4”.

Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:52:49 PM EDT
persoanlly, i think the next round will have a really small case with a superpowerfull explosive. maybe a 30 cal slug on a 9mm size case, if they could work out a propellant that was powerfull enough to send it out .308 style.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:51:42 PM EDT
this is kind of morid but,
Patrick Purdy used an AK-47 during the Stockton massacre, Purdy hit 35 people (mostly children) but only killed 5. That's not a good average.
(Note: I do not advocate nor condone this horrible massacre, and one killed kid is way too many and I hope Purdy burns in the hell he must have sent himself too)
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