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Posted: 12/29/2013 4:04:40 PM EDT
just figured people might want to know. kinda a bummer. i had a bunch of 5.45.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 4:35:45 PM EDT

Well that sucks....
I read the Tavors sold to Ukraine were all 5,45

I'm not interested in the 9mm....
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 4:35:48 PM EDT
Vaporware from a gun manufacturer.

Whooda thunk it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 4:39:48 PM EDT
well the problem i have is they used it as a MAJOR marketing point. so much so that it wasn't like a "hey down the road a few years we would like to make a 5.45 kit" but more like we know we are going to make one and its around the corner. then they found they couldn't get us made mags to work reliably in it. kinda something you would THINK they would have thought about in the first place. there was enough of a demand for 300 blackout that they are moving on to that.

i love the tavor platform. it just feels right in the hands. but i already got out of 223 in favor of 5.45 so i literally picked up a tavor strictly for future 5.45 use. probably not that intelligent but now the tavor is basically useless to me. i don't really see why they would make the 5.45 some a big deal in the early days only to end up scrapping it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 4:58:30 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:




Well that sucks....

I read the Tavors sold to Ukraine were all 5,45



I'm not interested in the 9mm....
View Quote
Yup: Link



IWI pulled another fast one with the 5.45 kit promise. I remember when they said you could do the right to left hand conversion without sending it back to the factory too



 
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 5:09:56 PM EDT
its a shame because i think they make a good product, but come on, business 101, don't promise something you can't deliver on.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Brok3n:
Yup: Link

IWI pulled another fast one with the 5.45 kit promise. I remember when they said you could do the right to left hand conversion without sending it back to the factory too
 
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Originally Posted By Brok3n:
Originally Posted By CopM4:

Well that sucks....
I read the Tavors sold to Ukraine were all 5,45

I'm not interested in the 9mm....
Yup: Link

IWI pulled another fast one with the 5.45 kit promise. I remember when they said you could do the right to left hand conversion without sending it back to the factory too
 

Link Posted: 12/29/2013 5:54:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
its a shame because i think they make a good product, but come on, business 101, don't promise something you can't deliver on.

View Quote


Products are cancelled every day in the business world. I don't see anything egregious about what they have done.

Business 101 would also dictate that you do not release a product that is faulty, will malfunction, or is up to the end-user to make function properly.


IWI made the right decision, though not done tactfully, it was the only way to deal with unimportable magazines and US magazines that induce malfunctions.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 5:58:18 PM EDT
There is simply not a reliable 5.45 AR15 magazine available.  That is why the conversions were cancelled. Why would you want a product that doesn't work?
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 6:05:24 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jagdkommando:
There is simply not a reliable 5.45 AR15 magazine available.  That is why the conversions were cancelled. Why would you want a product that doesn't work?
View Quote

This is why I bought my tavor :(
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 6:15:24 PM EDT
Not to sound condescending,  but buying a new gun with the expectation that a later accessory wont be vapoware is retarded. This happens all the time, esp in the gun world that complaining about it is asinine.

For all you guys know, IWI could have been working with a 3rd party to develop a 5.45 mag that worked and that company screwed them. Crap happens and maybe they'll come up witha solution and release it instead of leadinf buyers on for years.

Link Posted: 12/29/2013 6:15:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jagdkommando:
There is simply not a reliable 5.45 AR15 magazine available.  That is why the conversions were cancelled. Why would you want a product that doesn't work?
View Quote


This is teh reason, from what I read in another thread.

Yes yes, "release teh conversion and we'll worry about magazines ourselves" but it never turns out that way.  Always ends up being "POS tavor doesn't feed", or "Tavor keeps jamming", etc.
I realize that many of us would accept teh risk, and hold IWI harmless, but it only takes a few loudmouths, to corrupt the entire line of Tavors, no matter the caliber.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 6:20:33 PM EDT
sure things are cancelled everyday. the way you avoid fallout is you don't go blabbing to everyone you are going to do something before you even find out you can do it. the magazine issue was pretty freaking obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with 5.45. not coming out with one because they secretly were working on it and couldn't get it to work? no problem. making it a selling point then cancelling it under the radar for an issue everyone already knew about? thats a business mistake.

besides, why not talk to magpul? they created specific magazines for other guns in the past.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maleante:


Products are cancelled every day in the business world. I don't see anything egregious about what they have done.

Business 101 would also dictate that you do not release a product that is faulty, will malfunction, or is up to the end-user to make function properly.


IWI made the right decision, though not done tactfully, it was the only way to deal with unimportable magazines and US magazines that induce malfunctions.
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Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
its a shame because i think they make a good product, but come on, business 101, don't promise something you can't deliver on.



Products are cancelled every day in the business world. I don't see anything egregious about what they have done.

Business 101 would also dictate that you do not release a product that is faulty, will malfunction, or is up to the end-user to make function properly.


IWI made the right decision, though not done tactfully, it was the only way to deal with unimportable magazines and US magazines that induce malfunctions.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 6:51:13 PM EDT
I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.

If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 7:06:44 PM EDT

I know that Ukrainian special police units have Ukrainian licensed, produced Tavors...
I wonder if they are 5,56 or 5,45?



Link Posted: 12/29/2013 7:24:49 PM EDT
Doesn't surprise me at the bullpup shot this year Mr. Kasner said they were having problems with it. They couldn't get 922r compliant 5.45 mags worth a dam. My guess is it wasn't expected to sell well enough to justify tooling up to make 5.45 mags in the US as well so it made more sense to cancel it.

I wasn't planning on running corrosive ammo through mine but I can see why people could be upset over it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 7:26:25 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:

I know that Ukrainian special police units have Ukrainian licensed, produced Tavors...
I wonder if they are 5,56 or 5,45?



View Quote


they are 5.45 but its us made mags that are an issue.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 7:28:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maleante:
I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.

If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.
View Quote


i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.

of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 7:58:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:


i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.

of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.
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Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
Originally Posted By maleante:
I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.

If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.


i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.

of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.


I'm suprised I'm going to be the first to point out that promising bullpup caliber conversions and then backing out on them is straight out of the MSAR playbook.  So obviously flaking a company about it doesn't stop the next one from doing it.  
     You could say that IWI is even worse because technically there are some MSAR kits out there somewhere.  Hopefully this is the last similarity we'll see between the two companies.
Link Posted: 12/29/2013 9:19:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2013 10:33:14 PM EDT by CopM4]
Ehh, Still more than happy with my Tavor.
5,45 would be a plus but would not replace 5,56 in my arsenal...

At least IWI did not flood the market with 5,45 conversion kits
using some sub standard, domestic mags just to get around 922
....and then leave the consumer to deal with it...

Link Posted: 12/30/2013 11:58:42 AM EDT
Sucks that they are all going to war.  Kinda overshadows the disappointment.
Link Posted: 12/30/2013 12:32:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By UncleGreg:


I'm suprised I'm going to be the first to point out that promising bullpup caliber conversions and then backing out on them is straight out of the MSAR playbook.  So obviously flaking a company about it doesn't stop the next one from doing it.  
     You could say that IWI is even worse because technically there are some MSAR kits out there somewhere.  Hopefully this is the last similarity we'll see between the two companies.
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Originally Posted By UncleGreg:
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
Originally Posted By maleante:
I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.

If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.


i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.

of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.


I'm suprised I'm going to be the first to point out that promising bullpup caliber conversions and then backing out on them is straight out of the MSAR playbook.  So obviously flaking a company about it doesn't stop the next one from doing it.  
     You could say that IWI is even worse because technically there are some MSAR kits out there somewhere.  Hopefully this is the last similarity we'll see between the two companies.


You make it sound like this was some ploy. They planned on doing the conversion and ran in to an issue. Shit happens.

Although, this is why some companies don't release ANY information until a product is available for sale.
Link Posted: 12/30/2013 12:44:05 PM EDT
There is still a free market, if the demand is great enough someone will make a barrel and bolt to adapt the Tavor to 5.45 X 39 and you can use the existing ASC mags.

If IWI fails to introduce a 22 conversion there is good likelihood another company will fill the void, it just might take a while for the market to react.
Link Posted: 12/30/2013 2:59:38 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:


well the problem i have is they used it as a MAJOR marketing point. so much so that it wasn't like a "hey down the road a few years we would like to make a 5.45 kit" but more like we know we are going to make one and its around the corner. then they found they couldn't get us made mags to work reliably in it. kinda something you would THINK they would have thought about in the first place. there was enough of a demand for 300 blackout that they are moving on to that.



i love the tavor platform. it just feels right in the hands. but i already got out of 223 in favor of 5.45 so i literally picked up a tavor strictly for future 5.45 use. probably not that intelligent but now the tavor is basically useless to me. i don't really see why they would make the 5.45 some a big deal in the early days only to end up scrapping it.
View Quote
Sell your Tavor and move on.

 
This same topic got locked over at bullpup forum.

The discussion filtered into 2 groups

Those whining about IWI and broken promises.

And those saying "get over it"






Link Posted: 12/30/2013 3:09:54 PM EDT
already have. however, i don't see why this topic isn't newsworthy and shouldn't be discussed.


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wfctrc:
Sell your Tavor and move on.   This same topic got locked over at bullpup forum.
The discussion filtered into 2 groups
Those whining about IWI and broken promises.
And those saying "get over it"


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Originally Posted By wfctrc:
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
well the problem i have is they used it as a MAJOR marketing point. so much so that it wasn't like a "hey down the road a few years we would like to make a 5.45 kit" but more like we know we are going to make one and its around the corner. then they found they couldn't get us made mags to work reliably in it. kinda something you would THINK they would have thought about in the first place. there was enough of a demand for 300 blackout that they are moving on to that.

i love the tavor platform. it just feels right in the hands. but i already got out of 223 in favor of 5.45 so i literally picked up a tavor strictly for future 5.45 use. probably not that intelligent but now the tavor is basically useless to me. i don't really see why they would make the 5.45 some a big deal in the early days only to end up scrapping it.
Sell your Tavor and move on.   This same topic got locked over at bullpup forum.
The discussion filtered into 2 groups
Those whining about IWI and broken promises.
And those saying "get over it"



Link Posted: 12/30/2013 3:44:26 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:
i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.



of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.
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Originally Posted By bythepowerofgrayskul:



Originally Posted By maleante:

I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.



If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.



Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.





i agree. and i have sold mine even though i enjoyed it, and luckily didn't take a loss. however, even though these things do happen, i think iwi should take some flak for it to hopefully stop other companies from doing the same thing. hey, if you have all sorts of ideas but aren't sure the practicality great, keep it to yourselves until you know it is viable. to market the thing based on it and then later decide it can't be done is crappy business. good company, good product, but they should be called out on their mistake in my opinion.



of course it doesn't help they did the same sort of deal with the left hand bolt being easy to switch by the user.
So you have already sold your Tavor but are still whining about IWI?

 
That's pitiful
Link Posted: 12/30/2013 6:24:43 PM EDT
Tech forum guys can't we all just get along and love us some bullpups and not act like GD?
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 12:25:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2013 12:39:01 AM EDT by bbies1973]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:
Ehh, Still more than happy with my Tavor.
5,45 would be a plus but would not replace 5,56 in my arsenal...

At least IWI did not flood the market with 5,45 conversion kits
using some sub standard, domestic mags just to get around 922
....and then leave the consumer to deal with it...

View Quote

At least someone gets it. I was unable to point out the 922r problem over on the bullpup forum before it got locked.
Are there domestic mags that would work? Sure, I have heard of a couple that are reliable. However, they likely couldn't meet IWI's requirements which may have included a specific price point, production rate, or deadline. Or maybe they just didn't respond to IWI inquiry. Maybe IWI never contacted them because they weren't a big enough name? We don't know the real story except that IWI says that they can't find a good enough US manufactured mag. There's plenty of import mags that work, but no one over at bullpupforum even considered 922r.

I do disagree with some of IWI's timid business practices (LH bolt conversion being a case in point). Sure, they could sell the conversion without mag and with a disclaimer that using imported mags would exceed imported parts count and subject the person that installs foreign parts to legal repurcussions. They won't, though, because they're the new kids on the block and afraid to make waves in the current political climate of this country. Bad publicity? Sure. Heck, they could have even worded their press release better, and said that they are putting the 5.45 plan "on indefinite hold" because of the magazine issue.

There is another side to the coin, too. If anyone already bought a Tavor at MARKET ENTRY pricing, solely on the promise that they could, one day, convert it to 5.45 ....... I can't help you.

Like some others, I anxiously await the 300blk conversion. But it isn't a deal breaker for me. I bought a Tavor because I have long loved the bullpup concept, and it is the first one that "works" for me. YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 3:56:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By maleante:
I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.

If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.
View Quote


This was apparent by your biased reviews and comments. Some of us didn't have to make a decision to "stick with one or the other", and see the strengths and weaknesses of both the of Steyr AUG and the Tavor.

Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms? Really? With all due respect, your Steyr love is getting a bit fairy tale like and over the top, and certainly unrelated to the topic at hand.
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 4:42:32 AM EDT
I was being sarcastic with the guy.

I'm not being sarcastic with you though, if you can find anything in that long dead thread (of which you are referencing) that is incorrect or flawed, please point it out.
If not, stop stalking me or send me your email so we can be penpals.
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 6:41:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By bbies1973:
There is another side to the coin, too. If anyone already bought a Tavor at MARKET ENTRY pricing, solely on the promise that they could, one day, convert it to 5.45 ....... I can't help you..
View Quote


The 5.45 is what actually attracted me to teh Tavor.  However, after watching teh MSAR fiasco (to their credit, they actually released a few 5.45 guns before they went under), I made sure to hold off on purchasing a Tavor until the 5.45 was out in the wild.
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 9:44:10 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MisterPX:
The 5.45 is what actually attracted me to teh Tavor.  However, after watching teh MSAR fiasco (to their credit, they actually released a few 5.45 guns before they went under), I made sure to hold off on purchasing a Tavor until the 5.45 was out in the wild.
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Originally Posted By MisterPX:



Originally Posted By bbies1973:

There is another side to the coin, too. If anyone already bought a Tavor at MARKET ENTRY pricing, solely on the promise that they could, one day, convert it to 5.45 ....... I can't help you..




The 5.45 is what actually attracted me to teh Tavor.  However, after watching teh MSAR fiasco (to their credit, they actually released a few 5.45 guns before they went under), I made sure to hold off on purchasing a Tavor until the 5.45 was out in the wild.
If 5.45 was what you wanted you were smart to wait.  Not only that but Tavor prices are down now too.  My main want was as a 5.56 bullpup with a possible 9mm conversion as a secondary reason.  If they never produced the 9mm, I would still hang on to the Tavor for what it is.  Now it looks like I will be getting my 9mm kit, so yay for IWI.  But I can tell you I would rather wait on the 9mm kit than get something that is unreliable.  And I wouldn't be whining about the wait.

 
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 9:53:00 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By maleante:


I don't care for the Tavor at all. In the spring I sold the one I had and won't be buying another.



If you feel so devastated by the loss of something you cared about, by all means follow my lead and sell your Tavor.



Steyr's AUG welcomes you with open arms.

View Quote
I like my Tavor and my AUG almost equally but for slightly different reasons.  Both are quality rifles made by solid companies.  

 


Link Posted: 12/31/2013 7:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2013 7:29:48 PM EDT by CopM4]
Love my Tavor

I bought it for 5,56
5,45 was a nice after thought, if it materialized.
Ok, fine it didn't  -the weapon simply kicks ass.
I move on.

Link Posted: 12/31/2013 7:25:29 PM EDT
I bought my tavor because: it was a bullpup, it would accept 5.45, it was made by IWI/IMI. In order of importance to me.

In this thread I read someone saying they wouldn't shoot corrosive ammo in their tavor; is all 5.45 corrosive? Maybe these kits falling apart is a good thing.
Link Posted: 12/31/2013 8:19:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2013 8:22:21 PM EDT by MisterPX]
Surplus 545 is corrosive, commercial current production is not.  However, commercial 545 costs as much as 223, so any savings would only come from surplus.
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 6:27:14 AM EDT
So I'm glad I'm out of that one.
And I don't like having ammunition that I have to look at closely to be sure I'm using the correct rifle/ammo combination.
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 7:27:17 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
In this thread I read someone saying they wouldn't shoot corrosive ammo in their tavor; is all 5.45 corrosive? Maybe these kits falling apart is a good thing.
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Hornady makes a nice non-corrosive steel case 5.45 with a Vmax bullet.  I've shot a lot of it in my Robinson XCR.
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 10:37:01 AM EDT
For those who aren't intimately familiar with how many parts 922 affects on the Tavor (myself included), How many parts needed to be US made?
And how many parts was the magazine supposed to take care of?  I know that on some guns (FAL comes to mind) just the floor plate was one of the parts.  I guess the body would be another, and the follower a third?
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 10:44:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xdmikey:
In this thread I read someone saying they wouldn't shoot corrosive ammo in their tavor; is all 5.45 corrosive? Maybe these kits falling apart is a good thing.
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The loss of this option is NOT a good thing. Many of us were looking forward to it, especially since there are no other 5.45x39 bullpups on the market. Plenty of us shoot corrosive ammo, follow simple precautions, and have no issues whatsoever.
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 9:19:05 PM EDT
Why not just do this? Works great. OK, now lets get the 5.45 kit.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/632794_Gen_2_Windowed_PMAG_for_5_45.html

Also it wouldn't be hard for them to contact Magpul and have them make some modded followers. This would be a better business decision for magpul with the 5.45 AR guys and the Tavor 5.45 kits. It makes more sense than making teal S3 phone covers.
Link Posted: 1/1/2014 10:31:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 3:31:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2014 3:32:13 AM EDT by Sparks556]
Few... I love these moments... Burn down the building... Sell your Tavors! Riot in the streets! Haha .. Makes me laugh..


All I can say is IWI thank you for a great product.. I love my Tavors... And look forward to the x95 if you guys ever get her across the pond.. Oh and thank you for not just selling something you knew doesn't work well, just to make money.  

This like stated above looks like a great chance for a American company to tackle the mag  problem.. Guess we will see what happens..
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 8:14:03 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms:


To be blunt that is a hack job solution. 5.56 magazines do not have the proper feed geometry and curvature to properly feed 5.45 rounds. If they did companies would not have invested in some very expensive stamping dies to make 5.45 ar mags in the first place.

There is a vast world if difference between one guy tinkering and knocking out a couple of home brew magazines vs. a full production rifle company selling a conversion with completely reliable feeding that not just civilian shooters but professional shooters may have their life depending on.

From a designer and manufacturer point of view I completely understand the decision that was made. Most likely they had a couple of tool room prototypes and in low volume testing everything seemed to be ok. Scale it up to testimg more mags and more rounds for high volume testing and then you start finding that some mags feed fine but others misfeed and there is no way to i.d. a reliable mag from an unreliable one even though they all came from the same source.

So you do the responsible thing, not put the product onto the market, and people promptly get up at srms about "bait and switch."

I suspect most people would be shocked if they saw the time and money that goes into product developmemt, and realize that all the money IWI spent on developing that 5.45 conversion is basically burned and wont be recouped by sales of a production 5.45 kit. So in essence, they spent money and decided to eat the cost because the product was not up to par on reliability and yet people want to bitch about it.

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Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms:
Originally Posted By Seratna:
Why not just do this? Works great. OK, now lets get the 5.45 kit.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/632794_Gen_2_Windowed_PMAG_for_5_45.html

Also it wouldn't be hard for them to contact Magpul and have them make some modded followers. This would be a better business decision for magpul with the 5.45 AR guys and the Tavor 5.45 kits. It makes more sense than making teal S3 phone covers.


To be blunt that is a hack job solution. 5.56 magazines do not have the proper feed geometry and curvature to properly feed 5.45 rounds. If they did companies would not have invested in some very expensive stamping dies to make 5.45 ar mags in the first place.

There is a vast world if difference between one guy tinkering and knocking out a couple of home brew magazines vs. a full production rifle company selling a conversion with completely reliable feeding that not just civilian shooters but professional shooters may have their life depending on.

From a designer and manufacturer point of view I completely understand the decision that was made. Most likely they had a couple of tool room prototypes and in low volume testing everything seemed to be ok. Scale it up to testimg more mags and more rounds for high volume testing and then you start finding that some mags feed fine but others misfeed and there is no way to i.d. a reliable mag from an unreliable one even though they all came from the same source.

So you do the responsible thing, not put the product onto the market, and people promptly get up at srms about "bait and switch."

I suspect most people would be shocked if they saw the time and money that goes into product developmemt, and realize that all the money IWI spent on developing that 5.45 conversion is basically burned and wont be recouped by sales of a production 5.45 kit. So in essence, they spent money and decided to eat the cost because the product was not up to par on reliability and yet people want to bitch about it.

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It is a solution to a problem that works. It isn't like it is just one guys experience tinkering with the follower. There are MANY MANY guys who have done this mod and have all had success. The guy in the video even states this and doesn't take credit for it. Go read the AR Variant section for 5.45 ARs.

That is why I stated that it wouldn't be hard for them to contact Magpul to design a follower or if that isn't good enough a mag. They could produce mags for all the AR guys too which would bring the 5.45 AR market back to higher popularity.
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 8:55:17 AM EDT
If the 9mm kit is any indication, the caliber conversions we're too damn expensive for we to care about anyway.

I bought a pretty nice AK74 for less that what the conversion likely would have cost, and mags are plentiful and cheap.
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 10:08:06 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By erwos:

The loss of this option is NOT a good thing. Many of us were looking forward to it, especially since there are no other 5.45x39 bullpups on the market. Plenty of us shoot corrosive ammo, follow simple precautions, and have no issues whatsoever.
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Originally Posted By erwos:
Originally Posted By xdmikey:
In this thread I read someone saying they wouldn't shoot corrosive ammo in their tavor; is all 5.45 corrosive? Maybe these kits falling apart is a good thing.

The loss of this option is NOT a good thing. Many of us were looking forward to it, especially since there are no other 5.45x39 bullpups on the market. Plenty of us shoot corrosive ammo, follow simple precautions, and have no issues whatsoever.


Oddly enough, I never considered shooting non corrosive 545.
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 4:44:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
If the 9mm kit is any indication, the caliber conversions we're too damn expensive for we to care about anyway.

I bought a pretty nice AK74 for less that what the conversion likely would have cost, and mags are plentiful and cheap.
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How much is/was the Tavor 9mm conversion kit?
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 5:25:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jagdkommando:
There is simply not a reliable 5.45 AR15 magazine available.  That is why the conversions were cancelled. Why would you want a product that doesn't work?
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What?  Say it is not so!   None of them?  I bought dozens of cases of 5.45 when they were $118 each an AR upper in 5.45!
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 6:03:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By rtpguy:


How much is/was the Tavor 9mm conversion kit?
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Originally Posted By rtpguy:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
If the 9mm kit is any indication, the caliber conversions we're too damn expensive for we to care about anyway.

I bought a pretty nice AK74 for less that what the conversion likely would have cost, and mags are plentiful and cheap.


How much is/was the Tavor 9mm conversion kit?


I see it listed at around $8-900 and "expected soon".  I built my 9mm AR for about that.
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 7:06:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
If the 9mm kit is any indication, the caliber conversions we're too damn expensive for we to care about anyway.

I bought a pretty nice AK74 for less that what the conversion likely would have cost, and mags are plentiful and cheap.
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i ended up going that route too, but remember you could pretty easily sell the 223 set up and nearly cover your cost for the conversion.
Link Posted: 1/2/2014 7:09:01 PM EDT
the point is that a 545 mag can be made to work, and above all by some hillbilly who isn't even in the business of making mags. magpul could do one, and they have done "proprietary" mags in the past for odd calibers.

hey if iwi tried it and couldn't get it to work, no problem. but they shouldnt have used it as a major marketing point only to find out a year later whoopsies, its apparently a physical impossibility so we are cancelling it. if you are going to put something together that apparently you have no idea whether it will work or not, better to not use it to market your product and instead wait until you know it is doable.

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Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms:


To be blunt that is a hack job solution. 5.56 magazines do not have the proper feed geometry and curvature to properly feed 5.45 rounds. If they did companies would not have invested in some very expensive stamping dies to make 5.45 ar mags in the first place.

There is a vast world if difference between one guy tinkering and knocking out a couple of home brew magazines vs. a full production rifle company selling a conversion with completely reliable feeding that not just civilian shooters but professional shooters may have their life depending on.

From a designer and manufacturer point of view I completely understand the decision that was made. Most likely they had a couple of tool room prototypes and in low volume testing everything seemed to be ok. Scale it up to testimg more mags and more rounds for high volume testing and then you start finding that some mags feed fine but others misfeed and there is no way to i.d. a reliable mag from an unreliable one even though they all came from the same source.

So you do the responsible thing, not put the product onto the market, and people promptly get up at srms about "bait and switch."

I suspect most people would be shocked if they saw the time and money that goes into product developmemt, and realize that all the money IWI spent on developing that 5.45 conversion is basically burned and wont be recouped by sales of a production 5.45 kit. So in essence, they spent money and decided to eat the cost because the product was not up to par on reliability and yet people want to bitch about it.

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Originally Posted By Manticore_Arms:
Originally Posted By Seratna:
Why not just do this? Works great. OK, now lets get the 5.45 kit.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/632794_Gen_2_Windowed_PMAG_for_5_45.html

Also it wouldn't be hard for them to contact Magpul and have them make some modded followers. This would be a better business decision for magpul with the 5.45 AR guys and the Tavor 5.45 kits. It makes more sense than making teal S3 phone covers.


To be blunt that is a hack job solution. 5.56 magazines do not have the proper feed geometry and curvature to properly feed 5.45 rounds. If they did companies would not have invested in some very expensive stamping dies to make 5.45 ar mags in the first place.

There is a vast world if difference between one guy tinkering and knocking out a couple of home brew magazines vs. a full production rifle company selling a conversion with completely reliable feeding that not just civilian shooters but professional shooters may have their life depending on.

From a designer and manufacturer point of view I completely understand the decision that was made. Most likely they had a couple of tool room prototypes and in low volume testing everything seemed to be ok. Scale it up to testimg more mags and more rounds for high volume testing and then you start finding that some mags feed fine but others misfeed and there is no way to i.d. a reliable mag from an unreliable one even though they all came from the same source.

So you do the responsible thing, not put the product onto the market, and people promptly get up at srms about "bait and switch."

I suspect most people would be shocked if they saw the time and money that goes into product developmemt, and realize that all the money IWI spent on developing that 5.45 conversion is basically burned and wont be recouped by sales of a production 5.45 kit. So in essence, they spent money and decided to eat the cost because the product was not up to par on reliability and yet people want to bitch about it.

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Link Posted: 1/2/2014 10:22:40 PM EDT
I decided to wait while to buy the tavor and am glad I did. There is no reason to now. I have ARs and an AUG if I want to shoot 5.56. I want a 5.45 bullpup.
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