Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 12/31/2002 10:19:11 AM EST
I just got my sks and I was shooting it and I was having trouble nailing a 12" pie plate at 150 yards.

I here people talk about hitting targets at 200 and even 300 yards!

I don't even think I could see a 12" target at 300 yards!

so can people here really hit targets this size at these distances what is considered a ok shot with irons?

I know sks's aren't that accurate but it really amazes me to here that people can nail stuff at those distances.

Like on that basic training show the army guys were shooting at sillouettes at 300 meters

Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:27:41 AM EST
Service Rifle DCM/CMP matches use AR15, M-1, etc rifles with standard iron sights and shoot out to 600 yards.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:33:43 AM EST
I can easily hit a 12" gong at 200 and an 18" at 300 with my Russian sks. The 600 yd gong was a little harder, about 4 or 5 out of 10. I really like the little rifle.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:42:56 AM EST
off hand?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:48:45 AM EST
200 yards off hand at a 12" bull with an AR15 and iron sights is not a problem. All Marines are trained on the M-16 with iron sights at 200, 300 and 500 Yds. The only variables are the shooting positions, the number of rounds fired and size of the targets at each distance.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:53:25 AM EST
I shoot at the squared off torso targets with square heads at many different distances with many different rifles/pistols. With my AR and surplus SA ammo, I could keep 10 shots in the -1 point circle, and 7 of the 10 in the 0, @6" area, at 300yds, in a sitting position. I was having so much fun I put 3 out of next 5 in the "head" area. That isn't using a bench, or even going prone, just sitting using a sling. Amazing what the AR can do. I can't wait to try my 69gr handloads that do 5 shot groups of 3/4" at 100yds off the bench, with iron sights. My rifle is nothing special, 20" 1/9 twist HBar, standard trigger, A2 sights.

I doubt my SKS's could do much better than what you were doing. It takes a good pair of eyes. I can see a 1" black dot on a paper plate at 100yds. That helps. A 9" paper plates make great targets for iron sights, try it sometime.

I have a Enfield No1 MKIII 2A that is capable of hitting the 9" paper plate at 300yds with open sights. Not all the time though.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:01:37 AM EST
where can you get those half man steel sillouette targets?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:09:13 AM EST
I was breaking in a new M4gery the other day, and was getting 1.5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards from a rest. But I shoot so poorly offhand that I figure my practice time is better spent getting into the prone position quickly.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:15:22 AM EST
The regular Marine rifle qualification course requires shooting a torso silouette at 500 yards (from the prone position). All you see is a black fuzz over the front sight. Just aim for the center of the fuzz, and you'll go ten for ten.

The whole idea behind being able to shoot out to 500 yards is supposedly to allow you to shoot the enemy who can only reliably reach out to 300 yards with his AK.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:03:40 PM EST
I do all shooting with irons, and on high power league nights it is 200-600 yards. I was really surprised the first time I did that how accurate I was. The bull on the target is almost 3 feet across but it sits above the front site post like a little dot at 600, somehow or other I can keep em in there most of the time. Now to work on offhand...
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:12:03 PM EST
I use iron sights exclusively.

I own one scope, and that is on my Remington 700 "Competition" setup. And even then, i have see though mounts so i can still use the irons.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:36:26 PM EST
I only shoot off hand. I shoot 400 yds max with AR 1903a3 and M1A, My target is a 1'x3' acetylene tank hanging from a tree. My hit ratio is about 4 out of 10.
GG
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:24:52 PM EST
I have shot 1,000 with iron sights. Lots of people do and a lot better than me.
Frame is 6' X 6'
X ring is 10", 10 ring 20", 9 ring 30", 8 ring 44", 7 ring 60".
Ran the line last October for a bunch of kids who shot using AR15 service rifles . They had trouble getting on paper but the eventually did.
Gerry
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:28:57 PM EST
I used to be a badass with iron sights and amazed lots of my shooting buddies. They couldn't believe the things I could hit at a long distance with my M-1. Now I guess I need glasses. (45 years old) Have a hard time hitting anything. The front sight and target are too fuzzy. Will glasses help?, or do I need to go to optical sights?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:47:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 1:48:08 PM EST by MaverickMkii]
AR15 carbine sight radius with iron sights, I can continously hit 10" to 12" at 200 meters, 10 shot groups. I did around 8" on a good day.

Funny thing is with Aimpoint, I just can't do the same...I usually do worse.

All of them using my sling and arms as support, sitting with my hip on the ground. Not as stable as benchrest but good enough.

Need to practice a lot though...I just can't believe someone can do 1.5" group at 100 yards just with freakin iron sights and Q3131A.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:22:19 PM EST
I averaged a 52 out of a possible 65 and a 40 is expert on the KD course in the Marines however the targets are rather large compared to a 12" paper plate.
I could have been much better but rapid fire is my achilles heel.We are supported though with a sling.

With my M1A or My AR i can kill a paper plate at 300 yards,supported with a sling however.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:38:09 PM EST
That's going to depend upon many things I have some I do better with then others - proudest shooting was w/ a little .357 mag lever action at over 200 meters we placed clay bird (mostly unhit from trap field) on the backstop a few yards behind the 200 line - bust every one I aimed at then started busting up the remains - one guy couldn't believe it, so I gave him my rifle told him where to hold & he started hitting the remains (almost as good as I was doing).

My next offhand feat was when I was shooting silhouette all the time (offhand w/ pistol) - my best friend's brother got a new 30-30 '94 win. for X-mas. He came out to the range we had set up chickens at 200 meters to practice for the shoot-offs - I helped him sight in at 100 yard line then he wanted to have a little competition - I said sure the chicken targets at 200 - dumped 5 out of 5 w/ 6 shots w/ my revolver - he didn't even try his carbine, just threw the money down and ran.

It's all in having an accurate gun & practicing.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:46:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By andrew:
I used to be a badass with iron sights and amazed lots of my shooting buddies. They couldn't believe the things I could hit at a long distance with my M-1. Now I guess I need glasses. (45 years old) Have a hard time hitting anything. The front sight and target are too fuzzy. Will glasses help?, or do I need to go to optical sights?



Bob Jones www.bjonessights.com/COLOR.html offers diopoter sights that can help. A distuingushed shooter that I shoot with went with one two years ago while at Perry and it brought the front sight back into focus. He is an optometrist and was extremely helpful.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:58:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I just got my sks and I was shooting it and I was having trouble nailing a 12" pie plate at 150 yards.


You might want to benchrest it and see if it is capable of putting it's shots in that area first. If it won't put them in 8" at 100, it probably won't put them in 12" at 150.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:02:21 PM EST
I love using iron sights, they're a challenge and with practice and decent eye sight it's pretty cool the stuff you can hit.

I'll never forget the late afternoon I stopped at the range while the guys were shooting some steel silhouettes... They were shooting the rams at 300 meters.. A guy asked me if I wanted to try.. Of course I welcomed the chance for a shot.. He had a beautiful long barreled Browning single shot 38-55 with a tang peep sight.. I put the rifle to my shoulder and lined it up on the ram.. squeezed the trigger and about 2 seconds later the ram fell over. Very cool! Didn't even have the luxury of a sling.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:09:36 PM EST
The first time i shot highpower I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn offhand. I did much better sitting and prone. I was shooting a AR carbine w/ SA ammo though. Our range only goes out to 200 yards so we use the reduced size targets designed to simultate 600. I really need to stop being so lazy and shoot in positions other than off a bench.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:13:21 PM EST
Off a bench with Iron I'm pretty good. But the AR is my 1st AR and the 1st rifle I've ever had without a scope. I've only put 100 rounds through it.

Offhand with iron sights I SUCK. I was surprised how bad I sucked too. Really shaky, hard to hold on anything out beyond 50 yards that was'nt the size of the side of a barn. 50 yds. and in I can hit pretty consistently the vitals of man sized targets.

I will be practicing only offhand shooting from now on with my AR. After all that's probably all I'll use it for in SHTF situations. So I'd better be good at it. You're not going to have a bench to shoot from on the battlefield.

I really want to take at least 2 (a year) of those 2-3 day combat training courses where you are put through the paces by people who have been in actual combat. They make you practice in all kinds of uncomfortable and wacky situations. That's the real world, combat will not be from a bench. My AR will rarely be shot off a bench from this point on, I have a tack driver for that.

Iron sights and the Eotech for me.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:06:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
off hand?



Yep. Not every time, but enough for grins.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:29:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:31:47 PM EST
I suck... can't hit the broad side of a barn [>Q]
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:38:34 PM EST
My eyes arent so good...

Personal best: 1" 3 shot group with match ammo from a bench, 20" A2 (Oly SUM)

I can pretty easily hit a 18"x18" metal plate at 300 yds with irons, from a prone position, with my AK's or AR's.

With my aimpoint, I can ding the same plate every time....

I cannot see the plate that well out at that range, but I can tell where it is enough to hit it. The AK with wolf ammo and it's dismal sights still can nail that kind of a target every time.

Offhand, it gets worse, but with irons, I can hit a 18" plate at 300 about 50% of the time. I need to get MUCH better than that.

I agree with the "get into prone quickly" approach!
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:51:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
off hand?



What's the difference between the world's best hunter and the world's worst high power shooter?

The high power shooter realizes his offhand stinks.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:05:31 AM EST
Sub-MOA all day long, of course! (standard answer)

Seriously, with a generic AR, maybe 3 MOA prone, more like 5 MOA offhand on a good day. Much more than that on a usual day.

I do a little better than that with a decent service grade M1, the sights seem to work better for me than the AR's.

I don't shoot much with the irons, most of my shooting lately has consisted of sighting in scopes after moving them from one gun to another.

Remember, too, in service rifle competitions, the size of the bullseye gets larger the farther out the target is.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:23:26 AM EST
With a dialed in AR15, usually about 2.5-3 moa prone and sitting @ 100yds. With a good load, knock off about half an inch. I need work...

Offhand, well that's a whole different story and trust me, it's not a great story...
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:50:11 AM EST
I am by no means very knowledgable in this area, but I became very interested in this question about a year ago. From what I have read, the really good high power guys can consistently do 3-4 MOA standing at 100 yards with iron sights. I have been working with an old remington bolt action .22 on my off hand for a while, but still probably average 7-8" (MOA) at 100 yards. As someone noted above, if you are really trying to work on your skills, the SKS is likely making the experience more frustrating, as they are known for reliability but not great accuracy. I bought G David Tubb's book, "Highpower Rifle" which outlines the correct stance very well if you want to work on it.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:36:36 PM EST


Not my best group, but I like this the most since the rifle used was a 1944 Finnish M39 shooting surplus Russian ammo wrapped in brown wax paper. Target was shot at 200 yd prone (w/ sling support) during a Buffalo Soldier memorial match, Pioneer GC, KCMO, 2001.

Now with AR. 100 yd practice, Bushmaster DCM AR, 0.040" hooded rear aperture with 0.052" front sight. Ammo: Spanish SS109 surplus (Santa Barbara).



Prone position (w/ sling support). Single load. 20 rounds in 20 minutes.



Standing to sitting, rapid, 2 + 8 rounds in 60 seconds (with one magazine change). Sitting cross legged with sling support.

Using home rolled match ammo (80 gr SMK), OAL measured as maximumOAL (measured using the Stoney POint ga) - 0.010".



200 yds, slow fire prone (sling support), shot during local high power league match.

No MOA groups here, but these are the best I have done so far. Hopefully to see some improvements in 2003.

OZ
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:58:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 7:00:35 AM EST by edstephan]
I usually shoot between 435 - 460 on a 50 round CMP/DCM Match. I have the most trouble with the 300yd awfull hand, the Sitting is fair, but the 600yd prone my AR or M14 really works well. Last match 191 7x of a possable 200 at 600yd.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 8:18:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 11:58:33 AM EST by MouseGun87]
My best off-hand score during an NRA sanctioned match (regional) was 187/200-3X. I am new to high power, but I shot match air rifles and match smallbore rifles for 7-8 years total. My match air rifle experience is responsible for bringing me up to speed on off-hand shooting in high power. I used to shoot 60 rounds + 10 rounds zero in 2 hours and 10 minutes for a match air rifle competition, all off hand. Back in HS, I practiced 2-3 times a week averaging 60-75 rounds per practice, all off hand. Glad to know, after 15 years, some of the muscle memory is still there.

A High Master shooter I know told me how he maintained his muscle memory for off-hand shooting: every day he dry fires his AR on a simulated bullseye on the wall for about 50 times. His off-hand score is around 190-195 constantly. Once I saw him clean the target at a league match (200/200). So, dry firing works!

oz
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 9:17:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 9:22:49 AM EST by MillerSHO]

Originally Posted By Troy:
I have pretty good eyes, and with good ammo, I can get just under 2 MOA at 100 yards with irons from a bench. With FMJ, more like 3-4 MOA, depending on the ammo. Offhand, it's worse...

-Troy



That's exactly where I'm at after almost a year of AR ownership and about 4000-5000 rounds.

Hopefully I can get better without having to practice significantly more.

Still have irons, haven't found a need for optics yet.

Edited to say: I can hit the 18" gong @ 200 yards without even trying, off-hand, cross-legged, prone, whatever.

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 11:34:35 AM EST
Glad to know I'm not that behind. I'm been scared of 1.5" MOA @ 100 yard shooters now...

I'm aiming for CONSISTENT 3" to 4" groups at 100 meters with iron sights using M193s. I think that is all the accuracy I need for general purpose shooting. (I think this type of shooting is also better suited for defense and SHTF than benchrest)
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:45:07 PM EST
Old joke, but to those who haven't heard it:

What's the difference between a high power shooter and a puppy?

A puppy stops whining after six months.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:41:14 PM EST
Yee dawgy prone is the way to go! Got an older AR that I decided to spend a few hundred bucks on, got me a match grade barrel, new hammer and pin (both were worn), and an assortment of other things. Filed down the front site on the irons, went prone and started poppin 8" targets on trees from distances up to 400 yds. Offhand at 200 is very difficult for me, but I can manage : ) I'm a scope guy, live and die by scopes, but the AR had to stay with irons. I just love the look of em.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 1:25:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Off a bench with Iron I'm pretty good. But the AR is my 1st AR and the 1st rifle I've ever had without a scope. I've only put 100 rounds through it.

Offhand with iron sights I SUCK. I was surprised how bad I sucked too. Really shaky, hard to hold on anything out beyond 50 yards that was'nt the size of the side of a barn. 50 yds. and in I can hit pretty consistently the vitals of man sized targets.

I will be practicing only offhand shooting from now on with my AR. After all that's probably all I'll use it for in SHTF situations. So I'd better be good at it. You're not going to have a bench to shoot from on the battlefield.

Iron sights and the Eotech for me.




The secret to tight offhand groups is body position. You have to tame your body to achieve a good natural point of aim (NPA). That means eliminating muscle support in your shooting position and falling back on skeletal support as completely as possible. The back of your non-shooting upper arm is supported against your ribcage, your hand supports the rifle close to the magazine well, or even grasping the magazine. The rifle butt is planted in the same partof the shoulder pocket every single time you shoot. Cheek weld to the stock has got to be consistent as well to ensure eye relief is constant from shot to shot.

Now the other tough bits. With the rifle shouldered, you need to balance your body and rifle over your feet so that your are holding the rifle in an essentially relaxed position. Your support hand should be exerting as close to zero muscle support as possible with the weight being passed to the hips through the skeleton of the arm, ribs, to spine and hips.

Once you have achieved this balanced position, you look through your sights and see what they are pointed at. DO NOT ADJUST THE RIFLE TO MEET THE TARGET. Adjust your feet. Shift your rear foot left and right like a tiller to shift the muzzle right and left respectively. Need to elevate the muzzle? Drop your rear foot back a bit. Need to lower the muzzle? Shift it forward. Your desired end-state is to be in a stable, reasonably relaxed position where, at the natural pause in your breathing cycle, the front sight post is centered in the rear peer and centered just below the bullseye of the target. It'll rise and fall on the target with your breath cycle, but if you always shoot at the same spot in the cycle (the pause) you will have a consistent, natural point of aim.

Now breathe control. Time your trigger release to the same portion of your breathing cycle...generally the natural pause that occurs between the end of the exhalation phase and just before you begin inhaling again.

Follow through on your trigger squeeze on every shot. Don't milk it. Get a consistent, controlled, positive squeeze every single time.

Practice that regularly. Make yourself a dry fire target and do this a couple evenings a week.

A shooting jacket helps this significantly, but you don't need it. An AR is a great position shooting tool because it doesn't beat you up in live fire and doesn't kick your position loose with each shot the way an M1A or M1 Garand can.

Now a highpower offhand shooting position bears little resemblance to a combat offhand shooting position, but the disciplines you learn in position shooting will significantly improve your shooting in all other areas as well.
Top Top