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Posted: 9/14/2010 12:48:47 PM EDT
Who sells them stripped. Several of the manf. I have spoken with explained to me that the ATF rejects registration because they (the ATF) wants to see a complete gun. I cannot fathom an issue with putting a stripped lower on a F2 as SBR. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there a letter out there?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 12:59:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AllserviceBilliards:
Who sells them stripped. Several of the manf. I have spoken with explained to me that the ATF rejects registration because they (the ATF) wants to see a complete gun. I cannot fathom an issue with putting a stripped lower on a F2 as SBR. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there a letter out there?


ALOT of mfgrs used to do it. The problem is that the ATF cracked down and are enforcing the laws.

For a mfgr to list SN xyz receiver on a F2 as an SBR without ever building it as such constitutes lying on federal documents. The mfgr could have physically built the recvr into a SBR and then strip it down .. but the ATF will not approve an SBR transfer without the bbl and overall specs .. and if they entered the info onto the F3 or F4 and it was not in that configuration .. that is again lying on federal documents.

Both avenues will lead someone to some trouble if and when they ever get caught doing such. THAT is why you will only find legitimate mfgr's and dealers with full SBR's for sale.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 1:50:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:57:40 PM EDT
You can only buy complete SBRs/SBSs now.

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:14:41 PM EDT
This probably has a lot to due with the recent "ruling" that if you remove a SBR upper from a SBR Lower and put a 16"+ length barreled upper on it, it is no longer an SBR for purposes of interstate travel, etc.

Thus, if you remove the SBR upper, and it transfers without it, it can't technically be an SBR.

Not saying this is right, or wrong, just voicing an opinion.

Semper Fidelis,

Kent
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:49:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 7:46:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 7:48:20 PM EDT by AllserviceBilliards]
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By USMC_2674:
This probably has a lot to due with the recent "ruling" that if you remove a SBR upper from a SBR Lower and put a 16"+ length barreled upper on it, it is no longer an SBR for purposes of interstate travel, etc.

Thus, if you remove the SBR upper, and it transfers without it, it can't technically be an SBR.

Not saying this is right, or wrong, just voicing an opinion.

Semper Fidelis,

Kent

It is not a "recent ruling" ... it is a clarification of the law, written by ATF at the request of many present and potential SBR owners. If you read through the whole thing, you will see that it actually is to our advantage ... but more important, it is 100% in keeping with existing, longtime federal law: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

A Short-Barrelled Rifle (or shotgun) is defined under federal law by its configuration: A rifle with a barrel over 16" and an overall length of over 26" is a regular Title 1 firearm; a rifle with a barrel under 16", or an OA length under 26", meets the definition of a Title 2 firearm, specifically a Short-Barrelled Rifle, and which falls under the jurisdiction of the National Firearms Act.

A stripped receiver has no barrel, thus it does not and cannot meet the definition of a Short-Barrelled Rifle. A receiver does not meet the legal definition of an SBR until it is assembled with a barrel under 16" ... and once the barrel is removed, it no longer meets that legal definition.

This is good for gun owners. Because if you do own an SBR and want to take it interstate without filing and getting an approved 5320.20 for interstate travel, all you need to do is put on a 16"+ upper and leave the sub-16" upper at home, and you are legally free to roam about the country. Similarly, if you want to loan your SBR to your dad, son, wife, buddy or bro-in-law, just do the same (remove the sub-16" upper, keep it in your possession, and loan them the receiver with a 16"+ upper attached) and you are within federal law. This also carries through to storage/access issues .... by clearing things up in the FAQ, ATF has given SBR owners a much clearer understanding of the laws governing their SBR ownership.

YMMV.


Sounds easy enough. Can the receiver then be sold without a F4/F3 if there is not upper on it or if it is in a 16+" configuration?

Furthermore, if I understand the law correctly, the rifle could be sold with the proper length upper (ie, 14.5"), on a F3, shipped with upper to said dealer, and the dealer could simply remove the upper and ship it back. Then, if the configuration of the rifle is changed (ie to 11.5"), notification could be made to NFA branch as to the changes and everything remains status quo. Does this logic apply?

Also, can an owner of a weapon on a F4 transfer the weapon to a new owner on a F4 in a stripped configuration PROVIDED when the lower is mated to an upper it meats the correct bbl length or notification of changes to NFA branch are made if reconfigured or can an individual no longer sell the receiver stripped at all on a F4 to F4 transfer?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:02:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:05:21 PM EDT
Also, I suppose the thing needs a buttstock, or does the overall designed or redesigned rule apply?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By AllserviceBilliards:
Sounds easy enough. Can the receiver then be sold without a F4/F3 if there is not upper on it or if it is in a 16+" configuration?

Furthermore, if I understand the law correctly, the rifle could be sold with the proper length upper (ie, 14.5"), on a F3, shipped with upper to said dealer, and the dealer could simply remove the upper and ship it back. Then, if the configuration of the rifle is changed (ie to 11.5"), notification could be made to NFA branch as to the changes and everything remains status quo. Does this logic apply?

Also, can an owner of a weapon on a F4 transfer the weapon to a new owner on a F4 in a stripped configuration PROVIDED when the lower is mated to an upper it meats the correct bbl length or notification of changes to NFA branch are made if reconfigured or can an individual no longer sell the receiver stripped at all on a F4 to F4 transfer?

I am not a lawyer, and cannot give out legal advice. That's why I always play it cautious, and only recommend actions which are known to be legal.

So I'm not going to get into the play-by-play of your questions above. But two routes that as a layman I believe are completely legal:

––You can buy a complete SBR and, once it is transferred to you and is in your possession, you can ship the upper back to the original seller and replace it with your own upper.

––You can buy a sub-16" upper, ship it to the seller, and he can install the upper on his SBR-registered receiver, and then transfer it to your dealer and subsequently to you as a complete firearm.

But any transfer of a stripped lower as a registered SBR is a very gray area. I would not do it, and I would not recommend anyone else do it, either. The potential penalties under federal law are just not worth it.

YMMV.

This is interesting. I wonder what the crime would be? I suppose it comes down to an issue of perjury?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:12:23 PM EDT
This seems simple enough. Every time the damn things are either manufactured or change hands, they need to have a barrel and a buttstock.

I love clarification. It gets even better with phrases like "transfer of a stripped SBR lower is a gray area".
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:45:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 8:46:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 8:53:50 PM EDT by scottMO]
Talk to the manufacturers as they may have ways to assist you or have options avail. Maybe you can buy it complete and then sell the upper you dont like/want or sell it back to them at a reduced cost?

There is/was at least 1 who was offering to buy your upper and then sell it back to you with the SBR lower for a nominal additional fee. This may/may not be a grey area as you would need to have the exact SBR upper that you want in your hands and ship it to them (and hopefully have no other AR15 lowers w/out uppers, or already have SBR lowers, etc. Or maybe have the "pistol upper" shipped to them from the factory, or orig owner that you are buying iot from, etc...
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 9:28:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tony_k:
Originally Posted By AllserviceBilliards:
This seems simple enough. Every time the damn things are either manufactured or change hands, they need to have a barrel and a buttstock.

I love clarification. It gets even better with phrases like "transfer of a stripped SBR lower is a gray area".

Here's the thing about federal firearms law: While our entire constitutional law system is based on "innocent until proven guilty," in practice much of U.S. federal firearms law is based on the opposite: Unless you know an action involving firearms is legal, you should avoid it, because ATF may find a way to classify your action as a violation of federal firearms law.

Yeah, it sucks. Like much of life, it is unfair. So change the government, or deal with it.

A Form 1 or a Form 4 is a legal document you submit to the United States Government. When you sign it and put it in the mail, you are swearing that everything stated on the form is true. And the federal government –– in this case, ATF –– says that a receiver which has no barrel is not an SBR, because it does not meet the configuration qualifications. It has no barrel, ergo it cannot be an SBR, and thus it cannot be transferred as an SBR via a Form 4.

Now, have folks successfully transferred stripped receivers, or complete receivers minus uppers, as SBRs when filing Form 4's in the past? Of course.

Have folks successfully cut corners on numbers and details when filing their 1040s with the IRS in the past? Of course.

Is it legal, in either case? Well, by submitting incorrect forms, you may have committed perjury by knowingly filing a false document with the federal government.

That is my take. But I am not an attorney, I have no legal basis to give out legal advice, therefore ... it is a gray area.

My definition.

How's that for dancing around the issue?


Yeah, I like it. It leaves me wondering why I couldn't just give a "registered" SBR lower to my grandma for christmas if it does not meet the definition of a SBR. If it doesn't, is it still regulated with the NFA? I suppose EVERY TIME the upper is removed from the rifle, ATF should be notified that it is no longer an SBR and it should be removed from the registry. It follows that when you want to put a new upper on the rifle, after removing the old one and notifying ATF, that what you are doing is making a firearm and a $200 tax should be paid!

All this because the 5320.20 is inconvenient?

If the lower is still regulated by the NFA because it is on the registry, the ATF has created an anomilee whereby even a licensed dealer cannot possibly trade in a good. What if a PD wanted to buy semi lowers for short uppers? Would they need to buy stripped lowers and then put them on a form 10? I am glad you keep up with this stuff, because for me it is like a cross between a tragedy and a comedy.
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