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Posted: 7/20/2013 7:40:25 AM EST
Ok guys. I'm new to reloading. My first 1000 or so rounds were all loaded with brand new LC brass for 223. Apparently they don't really need resizing, I ran them through my sizing die, & they worked fine, but once fired brass has major problems. I'm using TAC & 55grn SP Hornadys. I guess I don't understand the reloading as well as I should. I have to have pictures of stuff & can't find anything to help me figure out what in the hell I am doing. I just tried some once fired clean brass that had been swagged & primed by me. Ran it through my FL resizer die & then goto throw a charge, seat bullet & the bullet falls down into the casing. Why are the necks not resized small enough to hold bullet?

I have a wilson case gauge, I still can not for the life of me understand wtf I am suppose to do with it. I do not understand how it works. I have watched videos & read the instructions. Not a damn bit makes sense to me. All I can figure out with it, is the head of the brass pokes out past the maximum step on the bottom of it. I assume headspace is not proper. I have no idea how the case gauge is suppose to tell me how to set my die. I have turned my die down to where it touches the press & still the head of the case is past the maximum step. Should at that point it not resize to smaller than SAAMI specs & it should sit below the min line?

I did not trim or chamfer this once fired brass. I have a giraud trimmer, but the neck is below the max line, so I assumed no trimming is necessary. The once fired don't have that nice 45 degreeish cut that the giraud leaves on the case neck, as they have not been through it. I didn't think you were suppose to trim unless necessary. I trimmed my brand new LC brass in the giraud. Is that 45 degreeish round smooth cut to the neck what holds the bullet? Just seems concerning that is the only thing preventing setback? The necks on the new brass though, are smaller. I can't force the bullet even into the neck, where as the once fired brass, I can literally drop it into the case.

Why is my brass not resizing to where it will hold the bullet? How do I adjust my resizing die properly. Like I need some "For Dummies" type of instructions. I am becoming very agitated with the situation, because I have already loaded 1000 rounds, about half have been fired from my rifle with 100% success/functioning rate, so I thought everything was good to go & I could load more when needed. Apparently once fired brass is a complete mind fuck compared to working with brand new brass.
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 7:59:38 AM EST
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 8:11:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2013 8:20:14 AM EST by cegha04]
I use only Redding dies. This is actually the Type S Match set. Ok yes, did a little reading in between & playing with stuff. I guess die was not screwed all the way down like it should have been. I just assumed it was resizing the brand new brass correctly, but apparently it really did nothing to those. I believe it is now set properly. I ran 2 pieces of the once fired through & can see the head now sits below the maximum step on the gauge & can see the neck actually got slightly longer, which is what is suppose to be happening, but still, the case necks are not shrinking properly.

I have a nice set of calipers & new LC brass reads 0.244 or 0.245, once fired brass, after resizing reads 0.254. This is what is causing my next issue, which is my main one that i'm not sure how to clear up. From what i've read that should be taken care of during the resizing, & i'm not sure why it's not happening. Possibly my sizer/expander ball on the Redding dies? What size should the expander/sizer part be.

ETA:My Redding expander/sizer unit inside the die reads .222-.223, so this should be fine. Can someone please explain what mechanism is responsible for re-shrinking the case neck back down to regular size? This may help me find the problem.
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 8:26:06 AM EST
I think the ball on the sizing rod should be .222". Can you take the rod out of your die and see what size the ball is?
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 8:26:27 AM EST
Are you sure you have the bushing in the s die?
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 8:38:16 AM EST
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Are you sure you have the bushing in the s die?
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Are you sure you have the bushing in the s die?


Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. This has to be it. Never heard of a bushing. I assumed when ordering the dies, it came with what is needed. Most sets of dies, I take it don't use bushings & I never heard of them mentioned. Pulled up Midways website, & look what it says under description.

Bushing and shellholder are sold separately.


So... That must be why the necks are not resizing. I have been cussing all morning over this. Now, what "bushing" do I need, so I can order the correct one to actually use these dies? Midway doesn't appear to sell bushings? I'm confused on what the bushing does exactly. I believe it controls the resizing of the neck, but wouldn't for a particular caliber you always want the necks resized to the same size? The bushing makes it seem like they make many different sizes. Where can I locate one of these at. Thanks for all the help guys.

Link Posted: 7/20/2013 9:21:45 AM EST
There is no expander ball in a bushing die
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 9:28:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tillermiller:
There is no expander ball in a bushing die
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I guess I call it the wrong thing. This is what I was talking about. I guess it's not techincally an expander.

Sizer Button
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 9:41:29 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tillermiller:
There is no expander ball in a bushing die
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Mine came with both, straight from Redding
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 11:18:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2013 11:25:42 AM EST by Wingman26]
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 11:24:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2013 11:27:08 AM EST by Danger6]
Look on Sinclair Intl web site for the bushing sizing dies, should have some info about a good bushing size. You can call them, they can talk to you about an appropriate bushing size and answer questions.

Slow down, pace yourself, and read the sticky reference for reloading on this site. Get a good manual like Lyman, read up carefully on instructions.

After sizing and removing the lube, the case goes in the gage. At the bottom end (wide hole), the case head should sit between the upper and lower "step" in the gage, then it is within specs.

I use Redding bushing sizing dies, they are excellent, but you have to read and understand the instructions and ask questions. Sinclair Intl tech reps have been very helpful to me over the years, just one place of several to go to.
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 12:14:37 PM EST
Yes, you need a bushing. Yes, the absence of a bushing is why your case necks were not resized.

The bushings are of different sizes to accommodate brass whose neck walls may be of different thicknesses. Read Redding's explanation.

As a beginner, you might have been better off - and may still be - using dies with fewer "professional features".
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 12:20:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2013 12:40:44 PM EST by 243winxb]
The Redding "S" die can be used with or without an expander. As for the Wilson gage, keep reading the instruction till you get it. Good Luck.
Setting up full length resizing based off fired cases LE Wilson Preferred Method:
This procedure is advised because of a tendency we have noted the last twenty years of the firearms manufacturers to use larger chamber reamers and to chamber more deeply even for rimless cartridges. We have had fired cases from factory rifles which project well above the maximum step.
1. Check your cases in as-fired condition.
2. If the head projects above the upper step, adjust your die as above to where the resized case drops even with the upper step or a little below. The idea is still to push the shoulder back as little as possible to allow easy chambering. The resized case needs only to drop .002 to .003 be-low the fired case.
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Link Posted: 7/20/2013 1:05:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2013 1:09:16 PM EST by 243winxb]
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 3:20:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.
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This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 5:58:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Firefoxammo:


This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps
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Originally Posted By Firefoxammo:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.


This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps




Instructions that came with my die say 1/4 to 1/3 third turn more.
Link Posted: 7/20/2013 7:35:36 PM EST
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Originally Posted By StretchMaK:




Instructions that came with my die say 1/4 to 1/3 third turn more.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By Firefoxammo:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.


This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps




Instructions that came with my die say 1/4 to 1/3 third turn more.

I've got an innovative idea, why not just screw the die down to where a case will chamber and extract easy, brass would last longer with less separations.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:40:12 PM EST
Thanks for all the help guys. I just get too frustrated with stuff sometimes. I figured everything out & ordered a bushing, so I can start working on some brass. Right now i'm not the most concerned with super accurate loads, by resizing this brass perfectly. I got the 247 diameter die, which would work with brass with .013 thick necks. Most of the brass I grabbed at random measured this. Some were .014 & .015 though. So I would technically need other bushings for them, but figure the 247 will be fine, it would just work it ever so slightly more & it would have a different neck tension, which would affect accuracy slightly between loads. But all i'm concerned with loading right now are plinking range loads.

When I do go to try to make up some accurate loads, I will get me some more bushings.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 7:43:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2013 7:44:34 PM EST by StretchMaK]
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:

I've got an innovative idea, why not just screw the die down to where a case will chamber and extract easy, brass would last longer with less separations.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By Firefoxammo:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.


This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps




Instructions that came with my die say 1/4 to 1/3 third turn more.

I've got an innovative idea, why not just screw the die down to where a case will chamber and extract easy, brass would last longer with less separations.



I am just past a 1/4 turn and they are working fine so far.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 12:11:42 AM EST
Look up a youtube video for the case gauge, that should really answer all your questions regarding sizing. I don't care how you have your dies set up, if it doesn't work out in the case gauge something is wrong.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:02:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2013 3:08:43 PM EST by bfoosh06]
cegha04,

If you are looking for some online videos to help show you stuff , try Ultimate Reloader. Tons of helpful videos, just choose your make on the top of the page click on it... And there will be tons of videos on the left side of the linked page.

http://ultimatereloader.com/
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:36:38 PM EST
OP, Please don't take this as a insult. Very few things posted do not help somebody.

This sounds like a classic case of advanced tooling trying to be used by a beginner. If a simple full length die set was used there would not be any problem. Of course it would have to be set up correctly too.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 6:24:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:



I am just past a 1/4 turn and they are working fine so far.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
Originally Posted By Firefoxammo:
Originally Posted By StretchMaK:
What die are you using?

I have Lee dies and the sizing die is screwed in until it touches the shell holder with the ram all the way up. Once it touches the shell holder drop the ram down a little bit and then turn the die in about a third of a turn more, then raise the ram up to touch the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down.


This... However, I use lee's online videos and drop the ram down and add 1/4 of a turn, then lock it down. Hope this helps




Instructions that came with my die say 1/4 to 1/3 third turn more.

I've got an innovative idea, why not just screw the die down to where a case will chamber and extract easy, brass would last longer with less separations.



I am just past a 1/4 turn and they are working fine so far.



Lol, I don't read instructions. I just went to lee website and watched their video. Nice to know I can go up to 1/3 rd add'l turn though.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 4:55:13 AM EST
Most of my setups are not set up per the maker's instructions. Some of those will leave you with 8 thousandths of free headspace which is twice as much as I want.

Know your chamber and your dies.
know your target headspace and be able to measure it. and monitor it as brass age and spring back, lube changes etc can monkey with your numbers.


I learned my lesson on die setup thanks to an m1a and dies set up with cam over. i still have the partially seperated cases around somewhere to prove it. Remington .308 cases didn't survive the 1st reload with that much air space around them.

I am amazed at the number of guys who stick with their die instruction cam over dogma and argue it's validity. Not that doing so is always wrong, just that you should know what your product is and how it fits the gun (and not necessarily the drop in gages). a match gun and 1 or 2 thousandths free headspace is one thing, an auto with 4 thousandths is plenty reliable. There is no real need to crush them to 6 or 8 thousanths unless you are good with case stretching and possible head seps. I won't quibble if a guy does that as a conscious and knowing decision for his reasons. My garands, M1A, and AR all feed and lock fine on 3-4 thousandths gap.

yeah I was that guy 25 years ago but I've had my eyes opened.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 2:02:23 AM EST
FWIW I always make a dummy round prior to mass loading. When making the dummy round I will also check length before feeding and after feeding to check neck tension. ++++1 on the case gauge info as well. I thought I had my press setup fine until I came across a Sinclair case gauge and found headspace was off. Nice dies btw!!
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 3:44:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 3:49:06 AM EST by AeroE]
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 6:36:07 AM EST
Don't know about the Wilson case headspace/length gauge,

but with Lyman gauge I had to ever so slightly open up the

gauge for LC brass to go in properly. Could be wrong, but

it seems LC rim is just a tad wider than commercial .223.

No such issue with Lyman gauge and .308/7.62.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:45:28 AM EST
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