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Posted: 12/14/2009 5:33:37 PM EDT
since hornady does not sell their TAP projectiles, what is a close second to that particular round?
i have done a lot of reading and there is much debating about how the 60 grain V-max
cost is always a concern, however performance trumps price in my book.

i know this question has been asked numerous times, maybe we could get a great thread going with everyone's favorite self defense round and what powder& primer you used. and then tac it to the top of the forum...

Link Posted: 12/14/2009 5:47:26 PM EDT
Hornady 75 gr BTHP, I think this is the same(or very close) as some of the TAP line of bullets.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 6:37:52 PM EDT
The VMAX series of bullets is very similar to the TAP bullets in performace.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 6:52:15 PM EDT
Barnes TSX....I don't like using lightly constructed Varmint bullets for self defense.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 7:07:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
Barnes TSX....I don't like using lightly constructed Varmint bullets for self defense.


I don't want to worry about killing the neighbors either, the TSX has way to much penetration for most HD situations IMO.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 9:21:12 PM EDT
For some reason I thought the AMAX bullets were what the TAP rounds used.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 9:54:38 PM EDT
Go here and read....

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

Also read Molon's report on the TAP stuff.   I think the TAP projectiles are OTM's.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 10:00:10 PM EDT
The T1 bullet is the same thing as the BTHP except the T1 has a cannelure.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 10:37:26 PM EDT
Cannelures are good if you are going for fragmentation...

Link Posted: 12/14/2009 10:55:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CCW:
Go here and read....

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

Also read Molon's report on the TAP stuff.   I think the TAP projectiles are OTM's.


Only the 75gr TAP rounds....all others use a projectile nearly identical to the V-max just with a cannalure....and recently Midway began offering the 55gr V-max with a cannalure.
Link Posted: 12/14/2009 11:01:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2009 11:17:47 PM EDT by FriscoPete]
I would read the Ammo Oracle stuff that is linked to on AR15.com and some of the other similar articles and figure out what your needs are.  Handloaded velocity might be a bit slower but you can get an idea of how different bullets and weights work.

Depending on your rifle twist - Mk262 ammo is loaded with 77 grain BTHP match or "OTM" bullets and military spec ops really finds it effective, even at longer range with the M4.  Both the Sierra and Nosler bullets have been used and Nosler might have had a minor edge in terminal ballistics, despite Sierra winning the contract.

If your rifle likes or needs lighter bullets (1-9" twist), Then use 68-69 grain BTHP match or "OTM" bullets from Nosler, Hornady, or Sierra.  Performance is a reasonably close second to the above load.

All of the above loads are more suited to general "outdoor" defense scenarios, with the best long range performance in the caliber.  Katrina type events would be a good example.

Of course TAP-type bullets would include the Hornady V-Max bullets or their virtual clone as to construction - the Nosler Ballistic Tips.  This type is popular for situations where over-penetration is a concern.  The downside is that the wound cavity is large, but penetration can be relatively shallow.  Obvious the TAP round works and is used by LE but does have this specialization factor.

Barrier penetration would call for something like the Barnes TSX - which would work in a manner more akin to the 68-77 grain Match bullets, but is also a bit specialized.

And yes, obviously M855 62-gr, and M193 55-gr FMJs have done in a whole lot of people over the last 4+ decades, but have different characteristics.

I have shot a lot of varmints with .223 55-gr SP and Ballistic Tips, and would not want to get hit by any of them.  You could put your fist in some of the wound cavities on larger vermin, so it is not like the wrong bullet will just bounce off or something.
Link Posted: 12/15/2009 4:51:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2009 7:21:32 AM EDT by Eric802]
Originally Posted By Dan46n2:
The T1 bullet is the same thing as the BTHP except the T1 has a cannelure.


Pretty much.  The 75gr BTHP is the T1 bullet.  The .223 TAP round uses the T1C, the "C" for cannelure, and the 5.56 TAP uses the T2 bullet, which has a different ogive and the cannelure.  Here's Molon's pic showing all three:


I'm pretty sure only the T1 is available as a component.  ETA:  Apparently not, see Tullius' post below.
Link Posted: 12/15/2009 4:58:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2009 5:08:51 AM EDT by Eric802]
Originally Posted By CCW:
Cannelures are good if you are going for fragmentation...

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh133/counterclockwisester/m193frag.jpg


Longer bullets are good too, with or without the cannelure.  The 75gr Prvi match round, very similar to the Hornady T1 bullet, did very well in Doc Roberts' gel tests despite the lack of a cannelure.  Those match bullets are just so long (ETA: and with such thin jackets) that when they get sideways, the stress is too much and they come apart.

And a cannelure isn't the be-all and end-all of fragmentation, either.  The Wolf 55gr ammo has a cannelure but is a poor fragmenter because of the jacket construction.
Link Posted: 12/15/2009 8:49:54 AM EDT
I tried the Hornady SX (Super Explosive) 55 gr a couple years ago and they are very accurate and I don't believe you'd have to worry about passthroughs. Cheaper alternative to the ballistic tips. I've also loaded some of the fragmentation rounds, but you have to use a lesser powder charge and I found them to be not very accurate past 25-50 yards.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=144114

Jeff
Link Posted: 12/15/2009 6:59:15 PM EDT



Originally Posted By EWP:



Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:

Barnes TSX....I don't like using lightly constructed Varmint bullets for self defense.




I don't want to worry about killing the neighbors either, the TSX has way to much penetration for most HD situations IMO.


I don't really have neighbors to worry about, so, this just proves we all need different stuff for different things.  On the other hand, I have shot well over 100 coyotes with various .22 centerfires, and I do not trust varmint bullets to put them down efficiently (I have had many V-Maxs blow up on ribs and other bones, creating a huge surface wound, with the coyote running off  quite a ways), and I will not trust them on humans, either.



 
Link Posted: 12/16/2009 6:45:14 AM EDT
I kind of lean in a little diffrent direction after seeing what the 64gr winchester powerpoint does on ferral hogs. I know some people do not like the expose lead tips in their ars but I have no problem with them.
Link Posted: 12/16/2009 6:47:51 AM EDT
Hornady's 22cal 75gr. BTHP Match bullet (Hornady #2279) is available WITH CANNELURE from patsreloading.com.  I just picked some up, great price too.  Somebody tell Molon.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 7:07:00 AM EDT
I thought the 75 gr. AMAX couldn't be loaded mag length? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I bought a box of those when I was at Cabela's in KC two years ago and I never used them for that reason alone.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 7:39:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
I thought the 75 gr. AMAX couldn't be loaded mag length? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I bought a box of those when I was at Cabela's in KC two years ago and I never used them for that reason alone.


AMAX can't be (or is not supposed to be, anyway) but the 75gr BTHP can.  They're two different bullets.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 7:43:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2009 7:48:30 AM EDT by JamesP81]
Originally Posted By par0thead151:
since hornady does not sell their TAP projectiles, what is a close second to that particular round?
i have done a lot of reading and there is much debating about how the 60 grain V-max
cost is always a concern, however performance trumps price in my book.

i know this question has been asked numerous times, maybe we could get a great thread going with everyone's favorite self defense round and what powder& primer you used. and then tac it to the top of the forum...



I'd use Winchester 64gr soft points.  It gives far more consistent terminal performance than any OTM type bullet.

ETA: OTM's have thin jackets and, IMO, can not be relied upon to get sufficient penetration, especially at short range.  The 64gr winchester power point will reliably expand at much further range than OTMs will fragment.  It will also reliably get sufficient penetration, even at short range where velocity is still high.  There's a reason deer and hog hunters that use 223 use these bullets.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 10:08:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
I thought the 75 gr. AMAX couldn't be loaded mag length? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I bought a box of those when I was at Cabela's in KC two years ago and I never used them for that reason alone.


AMAX can't be (or is not supposed to be, anyway) but the 75gr BTHP can.  They're two different bullets.


Thanks! I do have some Hornady 75 gr. HPBTs, but I have not loaded any yet.
Link Posted: 12/17/2009 1:30:58 PM EDT



Originally Posted By JamesP81:



Originally Posted By par0thead151:

since hornady does not sell their TAP projectiles, what is a close second to that particular round?

i have done a lot of reading and there is much debating about how the 60 grain V-max

cost is always a concern, however performance trumps price in my book.



i know this question has been asked numerous times, maybe we could get a great thread going with everyone's favorite self defense round and what powder& primer you used. and then tac it to the top of the forum...







I'd use Winchester 64gr soft points.  It gives far more consistent terminal performance than any OTM type bullet.



ETA: OTM's have thin jackets and, IMO, can not be relied upon to get sufficient penetration, especially at short range.  The 64gr winchester power point will reliably expand at much further range than OTMs will fragment.  It will also reliably get sufficient penetration, even at short range where velocity is still high.  There's a reason deer and hog hunters that use 223 use these bullets.


I agree with that thinking, but I also wonder why the all great ammo oracle disagrees.  I guess I will stick with OTM for now.



 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 5:52:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kingoftheroad:

Originally Posted By JamesP81:
Originally Posted By par0thead151:
since hornady does not sell their TAP projectiles, what is a close second to that particular round?
i have done a lot of reading and there is much debating about how the 60 grain V-max
cost is always a concern, however performance trumps price in my book.

i know this question has been asked numerous times, maybe we could get a great thread going with everyone's favorite self defense round and what powder& primer you used. and then tac it to the top of the forum...



I'd use Winchester 64gr soft points.  It gives far more consistent terminal performance than any OTM type bullet.

ETA: OTM's have thin jackets and, IMO, can not be relied upon to get sufficient penetration, especially at short range.  The 64gr winchester power point will reliably expand at much further range than OTMs will fragment.  It will also reliably get sufficient penetration, even at short range where velocity is still high.  There's a reason deer and hog hunters that use 223 use these bullets.

I agree with that thinking, but I also wonder why the all great ammo oracle disagrees.  I guess I will stick with OTM for now.
 


Well, the opinion about OTM's not being reliable for sufficient penetration has been soundly disproven by gel tests.  Not talking about light varmint bullets, of course, but the 68+gr match ammo.  And if you look, you'll see that the Winchester 64gr soft-point round IS on the list for "recommended defense loads", for rifles that can't stabilize the heavier OTM ammo.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:46:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By par0thead151:
since hornady does not sell their TAP projectiles, what is a close second to that particular round?
i have done a lot of reading and there is much debating about how the 60 grain V-max
cost is always a concern, however performance trumps price in my book.

i know this question has been asked numerous times, maybe we could get a great thread going with everyone's favorite self defense round and what powder& primer you used. and then tac it to the top of the forum...



There are guys on here with alot more experience than me....But in my opinion a frangible round may have some aspects of a current bullet in production such as a vmax ect... but they change the material slightly such as make it harder so it is very brittle.....This would make it break apart on sudden impact! Correct me if i am wrong

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:21:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:23:40 PM EDT by FriscoPete]
The thickness of the jacket and softness of the lead combined with the HP opening - which in the case of the V-Max/TAP bullets with the polymer tip uses the tip piece to initiate expansion (like a little wedge driven into the HP) are what controls expansion or frangibility.  The jacket material is the same.  
Other than the addition of a cannelure, I would bet that polymer-tipped TAP and V-Max bullets are identical.

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