argentine type 3 receivers

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - argentine type 3 receivers

Posted: 8/18/2005 12:03:11 PM EDT

all this great talk about FAL receivers has got me reminded of a question that i've never

gotten a straight answer for....so i'll ask it here. the argie post '82

type 3 receivers ( i.e. pedro bello, armscorp ); are these puppies cast or forged ???

i would have guessed forged, but quite a few of these exhibit a "cast" finish in the flat area

behind the charging handle on the left side . this is the panel where the caliber markings are

located . so how 'bout it......anybody got the skinny on these bad boys ???

Posted: 8/18/2005 7:39:28 PM EDT

[#1]

Forged. This from every source I could find including the Mod on this forum (he's in Argentina).

Posted: 8/19/2005 7:13:10 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Forged. This from every source I could find including the Mod on this forum (he's in Argentina).

+1.
All the FALs made by FM (Fabricaciones Militares) have forged receivers and cold hammered chromelinned barrels (bore and chamber). Just for the record, Fabricaciones Militares is the Only Argentinian manufacturer of the FAL therefor, if it's made in Argentina, you will find all of the mentioned features.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/20/2005 1:52:43 PM EDT

[#3]

Forged. In fact, I have a new Argy semi-only FAL lower receiver that is a forged part, instead of the regular two piece lower.

Posted: 8/21/2005 10:08:26 PM EDT

[#4]

I have a friend that has one.

F.M.A.P. is the name on the receiver.
It is a preban gun. Very nice!

KyARGuy

Posted: 8/22/2005 9:09:39 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I have a friend that has one.

F.M.A.P. is the name on the receiver.
It is a preban gun. Very nice!

KyARGuy

Yeah, F.M.A.P. means Fabrica Militares Armas Portatiles, which is what Fabricaciones Militares used to stamp on their rifles, i bet your friend's rifle is pretty old since they changed to F.M. markings long time ago.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/24/2005 3:27:15 AM EDT

[#6]

Just a little correction, F.M.A.P. means FABRICA MILITAR DE ARMAS PORTATILES wich was the small designation of the "Domingo Matheu" military factory located in Rosario, Santa Fe Province, wich was the manufacturer of all the line of F.A.L. rifles made under license of Fabrique Nationale, Herstal, Belgium in Argentina.
The F.M.A.P. "Domingo Matheu" facility was closed in the 90´s and now the very small production of F.A.L. rifles is made by the "Fray Luis Beltran" military factory.

Posted: 8/24/2005 6:52:29 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Just a little correction, F.M.A.P. means FABRICA MILITAR DE ARMAS PORTATILES wich was the small designation of the "Domingo Matheu" military factory located in Rosario, Santa Fe Province, wich was the manufacturer of all the line of F.A.L. rifles made under license of Fabrique Nationale, Herstal, Belgium in Argentina.
The F.M.A.P. "Domingo Matheu" facility was closed in the 90´s and now the very small production of F.A.L. rifles is made by the "Fray Luis Beltran" military factory.

Man you're good! although there isn't really a correction to be made since i never said FALs were manufactured in either place...all i said was that the stampings were changed somewhere in time being the FMAP stamps older than the FM ones (on FALs that is). As you might now my Argentinian friend, when FLB started building these rifles FMAP was outta busines FAL construction wise. Even the FLB facility is almost outta busines FAL construction wise nowadays. They are BOTH Manufactured by a military factory hence both of them are actually FM.

Welcome to the FAL FORUMS, it's a pleasure to have a fellow argie here with me.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/24/2005 10:43:07 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Forged. In fact, I have a new Argy semi-only FAL lower receiver that is a forged part, instead of the regular two piece lower.

The lowers are investment cast. They were the only ones to do it this way. They also added the forward pin to stop the hammer---------hence the dogleg milled area on the upper receiver pivot to clear the pin.

Posted: 8/25/2005 5:51:55 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Forged. In fact, I have a new Argy semi-only FAL lower receiver that is a forged part, instead of the regular two piece lower.

The lowers are investment cast. They were the only ones to do it this way. They also added the forward pin to stop the hammer---------hence the dogleg milled area on the upper receiver pivot to clear the pin.

Lowers are forged not cast.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/25/2005 10:16:33 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Lowers are forged not cast.

HUNTER.

30yr's in aerospace fabrication/welding says don't make any large bets on your statement...

Also note the alloy is pretty funky. When you TIG weld on them all kinds of fun things happen.

Posted: 8/25/2005 5:35:53 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Lowers are forged not cast.

HUNTER.

30yr's in aerospace fabrication/welding says don't make any large bets on your statement...

Also note the alloy is pretty funky. When you TIG weld on them all kinds of fun things happen.

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Posted: 8/25/2005 7:36:08 PM EDT

[#12]

I didn´t mean to correct you, you know I´m a fan of FM, I have close ties with the guys since I´m voting member of the Argentine Association of Arms and Ammunitions Collectors (A.A.C.A.M) and I have the chance to visit many times both factories.
A time ago I do have a F.A.L. PARA short barrel with the FMAP "DM" markings (including the beautifull FM round logo), it was a fine gun, and by the way it had forged lower.
Have you seen my post about the F.A.L. "COMANDO".
Thank you, and hope to see more argies in the forum.

Posted: 8/25/2005 9:39:37 PM EDT

[#13]

In the 90's DSA sold Argy uppers and lowers. I received 5ea complete lowers from them and had a few dozen more come through my shop. All were investment cast.

All the uppers I've seen (again a few dozen) have been marked F.M.A.P.

When FM mfg'ed the Type 1 and 2 rec's they used the original FN multi piece design lowers. (refer to pg 240--The FAL Rifle--Stevens and Van Rutten----Clearly shows the cross pinned Type 2 FM mfg'ed gun)

When the Type 3 guns evolved the idea was to cut costs (IE Type 3 upper rec vs Type 1 and 2) not make it more costly (IE forgings). The use of precision casting is to avoid complicated machining processes. The only reason to cast the lower is to avoid the multi piece build up (and time involved) as used in the construction of the original design. The job and function of the lower does not warrant the expense of a forging and subsequent machining time.

If "cost is no object" why bother converting from the original design at all or why not just buy SIG's...?

Posted: 8/25/2005 9:47:13 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Regarding the lowers could you give me the references for this fact?

Posted: 8/26/2005 4:03:04 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I didn´t mean to correct you, you know I´m a fan of FM, I have close ties with the guys since I´m voting member of the Argentine Association of Arms and Ammunitions Collectors (A.A.C.A.M) and I have the chance to visit many times both factories.
A time ago I do have a F.A.L. PARA short barrel with the FMAP "DM" markings (including the beautifull FM round logo), it was a fine gun, and by the way it had forged lower.
Have you seen my post about the F.A.L. "COMANDO".
Thank you, and hope to see more argies in the forum.

Never been to any of them factories, but i worked at a place called "Gun Shop" (yes, it's a gunshop called Gun Shop) in Argentina before and of all the 100s of FALs, FAPs and FSLs i had the chance to fondle they were all FORGED no matter what some (in this case NONAME) may say. Jesus even MY FAL is forged. Not being down here in Argentina and not having had the change to see, strip, sell, fix and play with 1000s of Argentinian FALs "says don't bet any large bets on YOUR statement"

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/26/2005 4:31:14 AM EDT

[#16]

Hunter what do you do for a living?

Out of the 1000's of FAL's you've seen, have you ever seen a forging blank? Do you even know what forging is?

Here is a picture of a Argentinean FM Type 2 FAL with the original FN type lower. Note the cross pin clearly visible just forward of the Type 2 reinforcement of the upper receiver. Is this an example of the 1000's of forged receivers you've seen?

Posted: 8/26/2005 4:43:15 AM EDT

[#17]

Originally Posted By Hunter223

When you turn the plug to the launching position the gas port get completly closed, doesn't it?
All the the gases in that case are used to launch the grande, that's why the weapon wont cylce when you fire normal ammo while the gas plug is set in that position. there is not gas going upbackwards when you fire a FAL with the plug in the grenade position.

About the kaboombed gas cylinder...me and a friend of mine where out on a hunting trip, he accidentaly dropped his fal into a big muddy water puddle which was like 4-5 feet deep, when he retreived his FAL the thing was covered in mud and he's like "bah fu#$ it, it's a FAL it can take it" and all he did was clear the mud out of the barrel and the ejection port, so far so good...after letting the thing just sitting out there on a sunny day for like five hours he's like "ok, let's see how it works" the rifle at that moment was completly dry so there shouldn't have been a problem...but, aparently that same muddy water found it's way into the gas cylinder thru the vents carring some mud to the inside of the gas cylinder which after being exposed to a hot southamerican sun for like 5 hours turned into "stone" locking the gas piston in place not letting the gas piston move back (or at least not letting it move back fast enough, we'll never know) and creating a preasure build up (vents were not enough to vent all of that gas out and or the might have been plugged with mud) bottom line is that he ended up with three things, a broken handguard, a kaboombed gas cylinder and a lesson learned the hard way, which is what i'm trying you not to get exposed to. Like i said b4, just my two cents.

Also the piston could move slow enough to create room inside the gas piston giving gases enough room to create that preasure build up i'm talking about.

This is an example of your experience and knowledge of handling firearms?

Posted: 8/26/2005 4:58:49 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Regarding the lowers could you give me the references for this fact?

My reference is from years of building FAL rifles. You can still occassionaly find Argetine para kits advertised as forged or cast lowers. Since you agree with me that forgings are not needed for a FAL lower (or even an upper for that matter) I don't think we should bicker, which usually we do.

DSA did sell Roasario receivers in the 90's. I live walking distance from DSA and bought my first FAL kit from them in 1993 at the old Lake County Gunshow.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:01:03 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I didn´t mean to correct you, you know I´m a fan of FM, I have close ties with the guys since I´m voting member of the Argentine Association of Arms and Ammunitions Collectors (A.A.C.A.M) and I have the chance to visit many times both factories.
A time ago I do have a F.A.L. PARA short barrel with the FMAP "DM" markings (including the beautifull FM round logo), it was a fine gun, and by the way it had forged lower.
Have you seen my post about the F.A.L. "COMANDO".
Thank you, and hope to see more argies in the forum.

Never been to any of them factories, but i worked at a place called "Gun Shop" (yes, it's a gunshop called Gun Shop) in Argentina before and of all the 100s of FALs, FAPs and FSLs i had the chance to fondle they were all FORGED no matter what some (in this case NONAME) may say. Jesus even MY FAL is forged. Not being down here in Argentina and not having had the change to see, strip, sell, fix and play with 1000s of Argentinian FALs "says don't bet any large bets on YOUR statement"

HUNTER.

I live in America and have built hundreds of houses. Doesn't mean they were all framed in pine. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:05:49 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Hunter what do you do for a living?

Out of the 1000's of FAL's you've seen, have you ever seen a forging blank? Do you even know what forging is?

I'm going to bail out of this thread but I often times see you go into threads and start flame wars when people disagree with you. I bet he knows what a forging is. I hate it when people make military small arms into this magical piece of equipment that only they have the vast knowledge to understand. Most people who have done any amount of engine building or even basic metal work can tell you the difference between a forging and a casting. I hate to break it to you, but perhaps the only thing more basic then working on an auto loading rifle is a children's bicylcle. I understand I'm being a dick, but it gets old the way some guys on this board have to puff their chast and piss on their tree.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:09:25 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By Hunter223

When you turn the plug to the launching position the gas port get completly closed, doesn't it?
All the the gases in that case are used to launch the grande, that's why the weapon wont cylce when you fire normal ammo while the gas plug is set in that position. there is not gas going upbackwards when you fire a FAL with the plug in the grenade position.

About the kaboombed gas cylinder...me and a friend of mine where out on a hunting trip, he accidentaly dropped his fal into a big muddy water puddle which was like 4-5 feet deep, when he retreived his FAL the thing was covered in mud and he's like "bah fu#$ it, it's a FAL it can take it" and all he did was clear the mud out of the barrel and the ejection port, so far so good...after letting the thing just sitting out there on a sunny day for like five hours he's like "ok, let's see how it works" the rifle at that moment was completly dry so there shouldn't have been a problem...but, aparently that same muddy water found it's way into the gas cylinder thru the vents carring some mud to the inside of the gas cylinder which after being exposed to a hot southamerican sun for like 5 hours turned into "stone" locking the gas piston in place not letting the gas piston move back (or at least not letting it move back fast enough, we'll never know) and creating a preasure build up (vents were not enough to vent all of that gas out and or the might have been plugged with mud) bottom line is that he ended up with three things, a broken handguard, a kaboombed gas cylinder and a lesson learned the hard way, which is what i'm trying you not to get exposed to. Like i said b4, just my two cents.

Also the piston could move slow enough to create room inside the gas piston giving gases enough room to create that preasure build up i'm talking about.

This is an example of your experience and knowledge of handling firearms?

What's your experience and knowledge? Does the aerospace industry (doing about as well as the manufacturing industry these days) provide one with the opportunity to become a know-it-all of firearms?

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:42:12 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By Hunter223

When you turn the plug to the launching position the gas port get completly closed, doesn't it?
All the the gases in that case are used to launch the grande, that's why the weapon wont cylce when you fire normal ammo while the gas plug is set in that position. there is not gas going upbackwards when you fire a FAL with the plug in the grenade position.

About the kaboombed gas cylinder...me and a friend of mine where out on a hunting trip, he accidentaly dropped his fal into a big muddy water puddle which was like 4-5 feet deep, when he retreived his FAL the thing was covered in mud and he's like "bah fu#$ it, it's a FAL it can take it" and all he did was clear the mud out of the barrel and the ejection port, so far so good...after letting the thing just sitting out there on a sunny day for like five hours he's like "ok, let's see how it works" the rifle at that moment was completly dry so there shouldn't have been a problem...but, aparently that same muddy water found it's way into the gas cylinder thru the vents carring some mud to the inside of the gas cylinder which after being exposed to a hot southamerican sun for like 5 hours turned into "stone" locking the gas piston in place not letting the gas piston move back (or at least not letting it move back fast enough, we'll never know) and creating a preasure build up (vents were not enough to vent all of that gas out and or the might have been plugged with mud) bottom line is that he ended up with three things, a broken handguard, a kaboombed gas cylinder and a lesson learned the hard way, which is what i'm trying you not to get exposed to. Like i said b4, just my two cents.

Also the piston could move slow enough to create room inside the gas piston giving gases enough room to create that preasure build up i'm talking about.

This is an example of your experience and knowledge of handling firearms?

Yes it is...please if there's something wrong in what i said correct me...i see nothing wrong with it other than an OFF TOPIC quote.

HUNTER.

ETA: i did warn him to completly take apart the rifle and clean it thoroughly if that's what you're talking about.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:44:31 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I didn´t mean to correct you, you know I´m a fan of FM, I have close ties with the guys since I´m voting member of the Argentine Association of Arms and Ammunitions Collectors (A.A.C.A.M) and I have the chance to visit many times both factories.
A time ago I do have a F.A.L. PARA short barrel with the FMAP "DM" markings (including the beautifull FM round logo), it was a fine gun, and by the way it had forged lower.
Have you seen my post about the F.A.L. "COMANDO".
Thank you, and hope to see more argies in the forum.

Never been to any of them factories, but i worked at a place called "Gun Shop" (yes, it's a gunshop called Gun Shop) in Argentina before and of all the 100s of FALs, FAPs and FSLs i had the chance to fondle they were all FORGED no matter what some (in this case NONAME) may say. Jesus even MY FAL is forged. Not being down here in Argentina and not having had the change to see, strip, sell, fix and play with 1000s of Argentinian FALs "says don't bet any large bets on YOUR statement"

HUNTER.

I live in America and have built hundreds of houses. Doesn't mean they were all framed in pine. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

That's true.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:49:06 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Hunter what do you do for a living?

Out of the 1000's of FAL's you've seen, have you ever seen a forging blank? Do you even know what forging is?

Please man, no need to turn this thread into an ugly one. What i do has nothing to do with anything.
and yes, i do know what a forging is.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/26/2005 5:58:18 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Regarding the lowers could you give me the references for this fact?

My reference is from years of building FAL rifles. You can still occassionaly find Argetine para kits advertised as forged or cast lowers. Since you agree with me that forgings are not needed for a FAL lower (or even an upper for that matter) I don't think we should bicker, which usually we do.

DSA did sell Roasario receivers in the 90's. I live walking distance from DSA and bought my first FAL kit from them in 1993 at the old Lake County Gunshow.

We don't bicker nor do I "get in flame wars" with people here. The only time we've had words here is when you were acting the ass and I called you on it.

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:02:03 AM EDT

[#26]

Noname ha salido del edificio...

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:06:56 AM EDT

[#27]

Keep it clean and stop calling people names. Stand warned.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:10:31 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Keep it clean and stop calling people names. Stand warned.

HUNTER.

I'm done with this thread Hunter. Who called who names?

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:22:01 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Regarding the lowers could you give me the references for this fact?

My reference is from years of building FAL rifles. You can still occassionaly find Argetine para kits advertised as forged or cast lowers. Since you agree with me that forgings are not needed for a FAL lower (or even an upper for that matter) I don't think we should bicker, which usually we do.

DSA did sell Roasario receivers in the 90's. I live walking distance from DSA and bought my first FAL kit from them in 1993 at the old Lake County Gunshow.

We don't bicker nor do I "get in flame wars" with people here. The only time we've had words here is when you were acting the ass and I called you on it.

You did, and if you say you're done BE DONE instead of posting pictures in your earlier posts in this thread. Like patriot said, the fact that i have never seen one it does not mean it does not exist. In this case i was wrong, aparently there are some cast receiver out there. Your attitude and your sarcastic comments are not apreciated by anyone.
Yes, i was wrong and you are right but that does not give ya the right to act the way you are acting telling lies "i'm done with this" while you keep posting pics, ok?
I'm gonna say this again, you were right and i was wrong. You happy now? JESUS MAN you're like a lil kid!

HUNTER.
ETA: that's the first time i see a cast lower of the "1000s of FALs i've seen"

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:40:06 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Argetina manufactured BOTH cast and forged receivers. Now that is fact. There is nothing wrong with a proper investment casting, especially on a part that does absolutely nothing more than hold trigger parts. The same can be said for AR lowers. Forgings are nice, but often not necessary.

Regarding the lowers could you give me the references for this fact?

My reference is from years of building FAL rifles. You can still occassionaly find Argetine para kits advertised as forged or cast lowers. Since you agree with me that forgings are not needed for a FAL lower (or even an upper for that matter) I don't think we should bicker, which usually we do.

DSA did sell Roasario receivers in the 90's. I live walking distance from DSA and bought my first FAL kit from them in 1993 at the old Lake County Gunshow.

We don't bicker nor do I "get in flame wars" with people here. The only time we've had words here is when you were acting the ass and I called you on it.

You did, and if you say you're done BE DONE instead of posting pictures in your earlier posts in this thread. Like patriot said, the fact that i have never seen one it does not mean it does not exist. In this case i was wrong, aparently there are some cast receiver out there. Your attitude and your sarcastic comments are not apreciated by anyone.
Yes, i was wrong and you are right but that does not give ya the right to act the way you are acting telling lies "i'm done with this" while you keep posting pics, ok?
I'm gonna say this again, you were right and i was wrong. You happy now? JESUS MAN you're like a lil kid!

HUNTER.
ETA: that's the first time i see a cast lower of the "1000s of FALs i've seen"

Correction you were not right neither was i, patriot was, there are both kinds of lowers, forged and cast.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/26/2005 6:43:20 AM EDT

[#31]

Look at the times of the posts. I screwed up the url of the photo and had to go back and up load it. It was there before I posted I was finished with this thread.

You need to go back a read the threads amigo. You started the sarcastic crap.

I am not your amigo and no i didn't start anything.

LAST WARNING.

HUNTER.

Posted: 8/27/2005 7:50:15 AM EDT

[#32]

I know "Gun Shop" very well because I knew the owner (Mr Minasian), I have being many times in Monte Grande looking for some nice guns, because they are very good traders in new and surplus guns.
Indeed FM manufactured both types of forged and cast lowers, as the best licensee Fabrique Nationale ever had, they respect or superseed the original specifications of the F.A.L. rifle, quality of the guns that FM produce are oustanding, not like the garbage coming out of the factory of Itajuba (It will be better that those guys stay doing their best : Carnival and Soccer, not guns).
For your information FM (FLB) is making a small lot of F.AL. Sniper Rifles for the Army Commandos, I´ve see the prototypes, and they are cool !!!

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