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Posted: 10/24/2001 5:57:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 6:03:57 PM EDT by SuperChicken]
my parents are buying me a new gun for christmas, im asking for a bushmaster but they are pushing for the remginton 700. i need some info to persuade my parents into getting the bushy, i figured you guys would know best. id appreciate any feedback.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:06:15 PM EDT
What do you own now?
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:09:44 PM EDT
first gun, bolt action .22, grew out of it
second gun, semi auto .22 (parents like the .22)
the only way to escape the .22 is to shoot my uncle's stuff.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:10:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 6:05:23 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
next question - what do you want to do with it?

A 700 could be a nice sniper setup. Double duty for deer hunting, varmit hunting, etc...

An AR-15 is a great self defense gun, plinker, varmiter, etc...
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:15:36 PM EDT
Use my main reason for getting an AR, if you can.... to compete in highpower rifle matches, and service rifle matches. (as a bonus, I'll be able to do the CMP deal and get a Garand on down the road!)
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:17:23 PM EDT
ar15, you can carry twice as much ammunition than a .308 (if that is the caliber you want the 700 in) and its cheaper per 20, military surplus comes pretty cheap in both, but .223 is cheaper. plus you can always change the upper and switch to 9mm, 7.62x39 Soviet,.300 whisper, Single Shot .308, or Single Shot .50 BMG, or many other fine calibers.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:23:46 PM EDT
I am the only one to say that the 700 is the way to go. I would just rather have something that can be suitable for hunting and sniper.

AR-15 is also a great defense weappon
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:37:35 PM EDT
My choice would be the AR-15....mostly 'cuz it is sooooo eeeeeevil. I have never understood why everyone is so fond of the 700. It's twice as expensive as a Savage (probably less accurate out of the box, too), not as well built or engineered as the Sig SHR 970, and not as smooth as any other bolt action you can name. Sure, everyone has one, but they are kinda like Fords....everyone's got one, but that doesn't make them great.

Choose the AR...you may not get the option later.

Roy D.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:41:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 6:38:02 PM EDT by SuperChicken]
i am interested in hunting, got my first deer sept 4th, but i dont see it in the near future. right now i just want something to go to the range and practice with. mom doesnt think i need an "assault weapon" and dad doesnt really like guns in the first place (hence the .22s)
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:48:37 PM EDT
perhaps price is a factor in their decision. An AR-15 is much more expensive (2x more) to buy than a remington 700 ADL. Maybe you should offer to pay for half. Or they just my think your not old enough to own an AR. I'm not trying to discourage you from getting an AR, but take your time, going from a .22lr to an AR is a big jump. Good luck with whatever you get
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:57:30 PM EDT
A free gun is a free gun, If they insist on the Remmy, get obe in .223. This way you can buy ammo and have if for your AR. {:D]
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 6:59:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 6:55:21 PM EDT by highspeedlowdrag]
Go with the one you want. Nothing worse than buying your second choice and then finding yourself wanting the other one about a week later. I've got both (two AR's and a Remington 700P) and I like them equally. Again, each one has it's uses and limitations. If you ever plan to go into high power/service rifle then the AR is the obvious choice (unless there is a "Sniper" category in US service rifle shooting - there is up here in Canada). One thing about the Remington, if you opt to go with the heavy barreled version, you'll probably end up doing a lot of your shooting from the prone (it's a heavy sumbitch). Either way, they're both nice setups.

Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:00:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RoyDamnMercer:
My choice would be the AR-15....mostly 'cuz it is sooooo eeeeeevil. I have never understood why everyone is so fond of the 700. It's twice as expensive as a Savage (probably less accurate out of the box, too), not as well built or engineered as the Sig SHR 970, and not as smooth as any other bolt action you can name. Sure, everyone has one, but they are kinda like Fords....everyone's got one, but that doesn't make them great.

Well my dad's Remington LTR is smoother than my 20" Savage 10FP (working the bolt) BUT mine shoots just as well as his does!
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:02:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RoyDamnMercer:
Choose the AR...you may not get the option later.

What he said!!!

The service rifle competition is a legitimate argument.

Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:20:12 PM EDT
Hello SuperChicken,

It appears as though you've stumbled across a similar dilemma I had in the past with my family. All throughout my adolesence, I wanted a better rifle than my .22 LR bolt action rifle. My father bought a youth style .22 bolt marlin when I was very young, because I couldn't hold up the family heirloom .22 bolt Mossberg rifle (now worth a TON of money!!!).

I wanted to get a new rifle, preferrably semi-auto, because I sometimes tire of working the action on a rifle when I'm just trying to plink cans/etc. They would NOT let my buy a gun, and I left for college right after I turned 18. At which point I bought my first Ruger 10/22. I surfed www.rimfirecentral.com for a long, long, LONG time. I customized the crap out of all the stock parts, smithing my own parts as I went along (as I was too poor to buy volquartzen parts, etc). This was fine, my family loved shooting it when I brought it home.

When I tried bringing it back up to college, the SHTF! My parents screamed that I didn't need a gun in the metro area in the first damn place and that I'd just wind up killing someone unintentionally if not killing myself! Well, I was pissed off, but what can I do, daddy helps pay tuition, so that instills some controls they have on my life.

Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:22:59 PM EDT
Hey chicken, you ,me, my mom, and your mom should go down to the range. We can let your mom shoot the ar and then she will realize it isnt that bad and is fun.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:29:24 PM EDT
I was there last christmas. My Mom was hung up on it being a 'machine gun'. The way I got her to accept it was I pointed out that it would prolly be my only chance to get one, this hit home because my dad always reminiscences on all the stuff he didn't get before 94'. My Mom still didn't like it but it got to my dad in a big way, so now I do office work for guns
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:33:53 PM EDT
(continued from previous)

So, I simply had to leave my 10/22 there! I was EXTREMELY PISSED off at them for quite some time. Then I got over it. Thinking that I can just get another gun, and not tell them I own it. I started buying up olympic arms kit parts, etc... And when I turned 21, I bought a good lower receiver. Vuala! My own AR-15!

I used to think the same way as your mother, "There's no reason for anyone to own one of those, they're just for killing people..." Then my friend let me try his, and I was HOOKED! There's nothing like the feeling of pounding 300 rounds of .223 rapid fire-style into your advanced physics books after you've passed the class. "TAKE THAT SIR ISAAC NEWTON!" and "TO HELL WITH CALCULUS!"

It's exhilerating. I had to have one. My family found out that I have one, and they were FURIOUS, and told me to bring it home before I "HURT" someone with it... (Keep in mind that I'm a part of a group that teaches firearm SAFETY! Oh, YEAH, I'll hurt someone or myself

Basically I surfed AR15.com for good *REASONS* for owning one. Use the PORCHE (sp?) theory:

In America, there is no real reason to buy a porche 911, because there are no highways ANYWHERE in America where someone could legally drive 185 MPH. So why do you think people would want one? ===> BECAUSE THEY CAN!

In America, people believe there is no real reason why anyone should own an "ASSAULT RIFLE" such as the AR15. My reasoning ===> BECAUSE I CAN, and it PISSES bleeding-hearted illogical liberals off!

Another good tactic. Point out the "TRUTH" to them. You'll be buying a "POST-BAN" bushmaster, correct? Inform them the truth, that you cannot buy an assault rifle, as they were banned in 1994, and now AR-15 style rifles are more referred to as SUR (Sport Utility Rifles), or PCR (Politically Correct Rifles). Olympic Arms no longer sells AR15s (sort of), because they are assault rifles, they sell PCRs!

The government banned the assualt-rifle style configurations from ownership unless it was before the 1994 ban (in which case it's EXPENSIVE!).

If need be, wait until you move out to get one of your own. Also ammunition is MUCH cheaper for the .223 than a .308 or .30-06 if I'm not mistaken.

AR15 style rifles can be used for multiple purposes, whereas the bolt action is somewhat limited.

my $0.02

Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:45:03 PM EDT

I don't know how old you are but I suspect under 18. The ARs and AKs are cool. But, there is always a but, if your parents are buying and making the decision then its their choice, want a cool rifle in mil config get a bolt action Yugo mauser. Save your parents a bunch of money put on some good glass and you got a first class classic rifle good for deer and target with cheap surpluss ammo to boot. As a side note I pulled out my first 22, had it for about 23 years now. It is a Remington mohawk 10-C, now that dates me. I had so much fun with that 22 at the range that I didn't even pull the big boys out. If I read your situation correctly its gonna be impossible to change your parent's minds. I know that when my boys are old enough they will get a .22 bolt gun from me. Anything larger they can buy for themselves after they turn 18. Maybe not the coolest dad in the world but its my house, my rules, and my money.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:47:22 PM EDT
it is possible to change their minds, they are pretty far from liberals.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 7:59:02 PM EDT
Tell them that rem .223 is just about the same size as .22,it's true.

The bad thing about ARs is that you can't buy an AR.
I don't give a crap who you are or what you think you will do after you get it I give you about a week befor you start to think about goodies.
YOU WILL GET HOOKED! to ask if you should buy an AR is like if you asked if you should start to use crak,what you do now will stay with you for the rest of your life.

PS:If you buy the AR-15 girls will like you more.

Link Posted: 10/24/2001 8:29:05 PM EDT
GET BOTH, they serve two different purposes.

I would get AN AR-223.
I would get a Rem 700 w/ good scope in 7mm Mag.

That way if the need ever came up you could take everything up to a rather large Deer say 200-250# on the hoof. Depends on where you live and what the local animals are, for a sniper rifle / MONTANA, I would say even larger. 300 Win or 300 Weatherby and you could take anything up to about Moose and Black Bear.
You may need a sniper rifle for a sniper rifle but why not also make it a good rifle to take large game with.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 9:46:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 9:54:13 PM EDT by BusMaster007]

Congratulations on getting you 1st deer. That means you've conquered a dream. It also suggests that should you opt to go hunting again, you have access to a hunting rifle already.
You've not mentioned your age or physical attributes, so recommending a rifle is difficult based on a guess. I must therefore assume that you are not old enough to purchase a firearm for yourself and that you are neither a midget nor a giant.
Since your folks seem to have the wherewithal and generosity to offer a rifle as a Christmas present, may I then suggest a couple of ideas for you all to work with?

I would start by saying that they seem to think a bolt-action is the right choice for you. A Remington 700 is a great choice. I have a couple and that is my preference. They are good rifles. However, a new one will cost about as much as an AR15. Specifically, a Bushmaster, which is also my preference...
Pricewise, these two choices are almost a draw.
Advantages to each choice can be illustrated thusly-

Remington 700 or MODEL SEVEN bolt-action:
goes more toward your parents preference at the moment, which YOU should consider. The 700 is a full-size rifle.
I would recommend getting a rifle that, as you stated, you would practice a LOT with, which would steer me toward a MODEL SEVEN instead, in .223 Remington caliber (for future compatibility of ammunition in the AR15 you most likely will get someday).

Bushmaster XM15-E2S semi-auto "sport utility rifle":
has the distinct advantage of providing the family with a platform that can be expanded upon as the need arises and in its present form is useable as a form of protection for the family. This is something THEY should examine.

For instance, it can be purchased as the standard "post-ban" 20"bbl./A2 sight model and serve very well as a training/target/defensive firearm for the whole family to use.
Later, a second upper receiver can be purchased to become a dedicated carbine or a Match Rifle for target shooting.
After that, a second lower receiver can be purchased to assemble a second AR15 so there would be TWO to use at the range---say, one for Dad and one for you. This is the real fun in owning the AR15 platform.

All that being said, I contend that it IS their decision to make for you.

I have a couple of links for you to show to your folks to help in making this really fortunate decision:
A link to the Remington site, directly to the MODEL SEVEN "YOUTH" page (remember that all you'd have to do later is purchase the adult size stock for the .223 rifle shown here and you've got an ammo mate for the AR15. The youth size is a walnut stock and should be the least expensive MODEL SEVEN of all):


Don't forget to check out the Law Enforcement section:


And, of course, the Bushmaster site:


and the Law Enforcement section:


The LE stuff is only available to Police and Military, but, you can see the differences in the "pre-ban" vs. "post-ban" features of the rifles.
I hope you share this information with your folks and come to a decision you both will be happy with.
My vote would be to get one of each and have a LOT of fun with the family!

Good Luck, SuperChicken.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:49:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 11:50:59 PM EDT by Redhook]
Before I throw in my $.02, 1) you should think long and hard about what you plan to use the gun for. Both pros and cons, not just cool factor. 2) It sounds like you could use both, so how long will it be before you can buy/afford/be allowed to get the other. Because you have two totally different guns there.

O.K. now for the soapbox. IMHO I think you should go for the Remington. I owned my Rem 700PSS for years before I got my first AR and it taught me a lot about firearms. With a bolt gun, you tend to take things a lot more slowly. And since speed is not the key, you concentrate on accuracy. I learned about barrel break-in, effective and efficient cleaning techniques, optics and ranging, shooting techniques, etc.. All of which will help you with any other firarm you get in the future. Besides, there is no better feeling than making a clean kill with the first shot so the animal doesn't suffer.

Also, a gun runs on ammo! Which will cost you far more than what the gun cost you over it's life time. With my 700 I'll shoot 1-2 boxes of Federal Gold Medal Match a day ($16.50 per box). but with my AR I'll shoot 15-25 boxes of PMC 55gr a day ($3.30 per box). You do the math. It's just hard to stop pulling the damn trigger with an AR.

Don't get me wrong, I love both guns, but you have two totally different attitudes with these guns. You just have to decide what your looking for right now.

Link Posted: 10/25/2001 6:31:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2001 6:26:29 AM EDT by guns762]
I have to go with the 700 also. The AR is my favorite firearm right now, but it is not my most useful tool. I own 4 700s; 2-270s, 1-338win., 1-.22-.250.

You will probably hunt again, and you should think about having your own hunting rifle. If you like the sex appeal of the AR. Get one of the numerous 700's in a tactical configuration. Get it in .308cal. That way you can play sniper when you want sporty sex appeal, and have a good deer/elk/bear/moose/prairie dog/(you get the idea) gun when you need and want one.

I think RedHook had the right idea about getting a bolt gun first. Become an expert with it. Go watch a couple of sniper movies, see if that doesn't spark some interest in the 700. Personally, I want even less firepower. I want a good single shot(rolling block, falling block) in an older caliber, say 45-90.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 5:26:20 PM EDT
thanks for the great info so far. sorry about the age and physical condition stuff, didnt even think of that. im almost 17, in good physical conditon, and about 5'10" i went shooting with klink a few times and his bushy got me hooked. he too also went trough the remington vs bushmaster...but he just got both. i'll bring up so good points and talk it over with them. thanks for the advice.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 5:49:36 PM EDT
Damn, You've got pretty cool parents!

I'm 15 and recently saved up for a Ruger 77/22 bolt action. The next rifle I get will definitly be an AR. I'd rather save for an AR now before I start having to worry about car insurance and stuff. It would also suck if AR's got suddenly banned (which is doubtful) and I didn't have one. There isn't much of chance of Rem 700's being banned in the near future.
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 6:01:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperChicken:
my parents are buying me a new gun for christmas, im asking for a bushmaster but they are pushing for the remginton 700. i need some info to persuade my parents into getting the bushy, i figured you guys would know best. id appreciate any feedback.

You might want to mention the AR's versatility and upgradeability. The AR's modular design is one of the coolest things about it IMO
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 6:51:36 PM EDT
well I wouldnt say I went through remington vs bushmaster, I went through deliberating what rifle to get first (it was decidely a bolt rifle) but I knew I wanted an ar sometime.:D
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 7:52:36 PM EDT
HEY..." Never look a gift horse in the mouth "
Damn fella if they want to buy you a Remy 700
then by all means take them up on it .
Don't bitch about it .
It certainly would be better than no gun at all , espically for free .
I have bith rifles and love them both . I had my Remy 700 given to me as a gift but I had to buy my Bushy myself .
Save up and buy the Bushy yourself , you'll
appreciate it more in the long run .
Link Posted: 10/25/2001 11:05:46 PM EDT
Well, if it's a remington that your parents are leaning towards, MAKE SURE YOU TELL THEM YOU WANT TO SHOOT MATCHES! That way you get a heavy barrel! You don't see ADL's shooting in matches. Heck, while they are at it, you gotta have Leupold Optics as well!

Price tag will come out to around 1k.

New AR is around $700.00

Try and get what you want. That way you take care of it, and learn to use it.

For me, it's just as satisfying to hit a target at 600 yards, as it is to shoot the AR.

Link Posted: 10/26/2001 7:34:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 9:31:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2001 9:26:34 AM EDT by Redhook]

Originally Posted By guns762:
...Get one of the numerous 700's in a tactical configuration. Get it in .308cal. That way you can play sniper when you want sporty sex appeal, and have a good deer/elk/bear/moose/prairie dog/(you get the idea) gun when you need and want one...

I agree with guns762, the .308 is a great caliber. I can shoot sub 1/2MOA groups all day long. But, I wouldn't want to shoot anything larger than a mule deer with it. I hunt mostly deer and boar with my .308. Elk, bear, and moose are too large in my opinion and would make it difficult to make a clean kill. If this is what you plan to hunt, I would cautiously recommend the 700PSS in .300 win mag. I say cautiously because the recoil is a lot to handle and will probably hinder your shooting skills (fear factor). The .300 is a great high power round and will easily get you out to 1000 yards for target shooting, but as a beginner shooter you may want to stay at .308. Just stay away from the big game.

Link Posted: 10/26/2001 2:56:15 PM EDT
i fired off a couple shots on my friends .300 win mag, very nice gun. we set off car alarms at the range because of the muzzle brake he had on it. anyways, thanks a lot for the help guys, either way i'll be sporting a great gun by the end of the year.
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 6:11:19 PM EDT
Get the AR-15 20 inch. It's like the small block chevy of the gun world as everyone makes aftermarket parts for it. As money becomes available in the future, you can get interchangable uppers: 16 inch for plinking, 20 inch for service rifle matches, 26 inch spaceguns for highpower matches.

Red dot scopes, high power or low power scopes for varmit hunting or plinking. Free float tubes, ergonomic grips, flat top uppers take scopes or detachable carry handles. 223, 7.62x39, 9mm, 50 SOCOM or 50 BMG caliber uppers can be interchanged.

With the Rem 700 you are limited to one barrel length, caliber and stock configuration. The recently manufactured 700s are of poor quality with off center chambers and poor bore finish (terrible accuruacy 3-4 inches at 100 yds). I had to re-barrel the 700s I own (cost as much as the rifle itself).
Link Posted: 10/26/2001 8:30:11 PM EDT
Heres my idea,

Get a Romanian SAR-1(AK-47) and a Savage (tactical/varmit or what ever the hell they call it) in .308

Link Posted: 10/27/2001 1:16:01 PM EDT
i was talking with my uncle and he told me to get a ruger mini 30. he said i can hunt with it and go plinking.
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 1:27:52 PM EDT
well you could hunt with a mini-30, but You would have to buy a 5 round magazine. and they are less accurate than ar's. and if you want a pistol grip its gonna cost more.
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 1:55:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 2:27:04 PM EDT
push for the AR-15 and offer to pay half

i think using the competition angle is a very good idea also.

if they dont like the idea of an evil ar-15 you can always angle for an M1a or one of those $3000 space guns they use in the match rifle catagory
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 3:32:10 PM EDT
Go ahead with the 700.....you have to start somewhere.....get the AR when you don't have to worry about parental approval.......a .270, .280, 7mm, 30-06 or .308 are what I would choose personally. You can hunt just about anything with those and in a 700 action you can expect good groups. Outfit it with a good scope......since you are probably on a budget a tasco or bushnell 3-9x will do and possibly a harris bipod? As for model get the BDL, maybe even the mountain rifle, wait and get a “loaded” up 700 later also........one other thing do not get the model 710!!!!
Link Posted: 10/27/2001 4:13:49 PM EDT
Gotta go along with the gift horse thing.Dont know your parents finicial status,but if I offered one of my kids a 700 and he started pushing for something else,he or she would be openening,yup,you guessed it,socks and underwear on x-mas morning.AR is way cool,but take the Rem and say "Thank You very much,Mom amd Dad"
Link Posted: 10/28/2001 5:51:50 AM EDT
Yeah, downzero has it right. If I was your parent, I would get you the 700 in 223. No way on the AR simply because the laws are too screwy and it would be much easier for you to get into trouble with the law and not know it. I also would take into consideration that you, as you state, are almost 17. You are close to buying one on your own.
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