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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 8/7/2002 3:36:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 3:37:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 3:39:54 AM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 3:42:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:06:44 AM EST
Another typical liberal blame the gun article. IMHO the title of this article should read:

"Experts Find Glock Owners Prone To Accidents"

Mike
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:17:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:20:04 AM EST
Sounds like they've got a bunch of ill-trained LEOs using a gun that is easy make mistakes with. Not a good combination.

I also have to wonder, given the apparent level of training of these people, if it really matters what kind of gun they have. I think most police carry Glocks because of its "spray and pray" capability. Give them 6-shooters and some training. Everybody will be better off.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:23:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:25:40 AM EST
I tend to agree in some respects. I don't think a gun ever "accidentally fires". Someone accidentally pulls the trigger. They characterize it as though if you laid a loaded gun on a table in a sealed room and watched through a window that, sooner or later, it would just fire. B.S. I also think that 99% of these accidents have nothing to do with what these media types see as defects. They are due to the person not paying attention, not clearing the weapon and then clearing it again to be sure. I'm sure most here agree.

That being said, I will set myself up for abuse and name calling by voicing my reason for never buying a Glock. Yes, I have handled and shot them several times but just never felt comfortable with them. The "safety" is on the trigger. That makes no sense to me from a safety standpoint. One of the big reasons for having a safety at all, in my mind, is to prevent the gun from firing should the trigger be pulled inadvertently. I have never understood why they don't even offer a manual safety as an option. If you are comfortable with it, great. I still don't think it is as safe as it could/should be.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:27:44 AM EST
I'm not a Glock fan but I believe that most loaded guns will fire if you pull the trigger to see if it is loaded.



Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:50:45 AM EST
Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department''s revolvers

The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed.

A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.


So he doesn't want Glocks to replace revolver because the Glocks don't have external safeties. How many revolvers have external safeties??

"Unloaded in the wrong order"........ Please tell me why pulling the trigger would be part of unloading a Glock at all??

Seems like 2 of the 3 accidents were when the handguns were being unloaded. Why are the unloading them? Why not secure a loaded weapon in an apropriate safe/vault/container?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 5:30:50 AM EST
I also read this article with some interest this morning. Cominolli squarely places the blame with operator error, but contends the Grock can be made safer with his new safety. I've seen the safety installed on a Grock at a Syracuse gunshop. I doubt I would put it on a Grock of my own, but I don't currently own one, nor would I replace my 1911 carry guns with one.

Anyhow, it seems that most armed LEOs aren't gun people, and their lack of training is painfully obvious. I've shot side by side with a number of cops "qualifying" at a couple local ranges over the years. Be afraid, very afraid-if you are an innocent bystander! In all honesty, I'd suspect that the same folks would would probably be having ADs with almost any gun issued to them, but the Glock design lends itself to perpetuating the problem in unskilled hands.

Aimless, I had Joe Cominolli work on my first 1911, an early generation Officer's ACP. I was less impressed. Maybe he has improved in the 10 years or so since he did my work.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 5:53:02 AM EST
Christ.. "If you want to make a loud noise, press here" should be the new MKII New York PD labelling for the Glock..

"Unloading her Glock"- How? By pulling the trigger?

This is the best- "In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club.

The gun''s inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said."-

I'm no expert, but I've never had a Glock AD/ND on me.. Is having numerous firearm accidents the basis for determining expertise in New York?

Blame the machine, not the operator seems to be an easy way out for many people these days..

Meplat-



Link Posted: 8/7/2002 6:05:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

"Unloaded in the wrong order"........ Please tell me why pulling the trigger would be part of unloading a Glock at all??

Seems like 2 of the 3 accidents were when the handguns were being unloaded. Why are the unloading them? Why not secure a loaded weapon in an apropriate safe/vault/container?



Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did.

So the safety is to prevent the officer from making her SECOND mistake? How about training to prevent them both?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 6:26:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:

Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did.




I still don't see what's wrong with this 'wrong order'. Rack the slide with the magazine inside, then take out the magazine... then rack it again until the chamber is empty. Where the hell does pulling the trigger come into the picture?

I don't own a Glock (yet), but I've never had a gun fire on me because I racked the slide with a loaded mag inside.

Is this thing about correction officers a worrying trend or what?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 6:29:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:

Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did.



Exactly! Just curious, but how many semi-auto pistols would behave differentely from a Glock in the case of unloading. The Colt CCO I used to have (1911 based) would be no different when unloading. The manual safety on it cannot be engaged, as it blocks the slide from being moved. You do have a grip safety on it, but everyone that I have ever seen unload a pistol grips it normally when unloading.

Yes, a device that disables the firing mechanism when the magazine is removed would come into play here. However, I believe they would be more protential problems than solutions.

Unload in the wrong order? Cycling the slide with the magazine in place simply cycles a round...does not "unload" the chamber.

I think all discharges in the article were misnamed...they should be "negligent discharges". Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to *shoot*.

How many "expert" gun handlers are in the Syracuse probation dept?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 6:35:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By sesat_ram:

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:

Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did.




I still don't see what's wrong with this 'wrong order'. Rack the slide with the magazine inside, then take out the magazine... then rack it again until the chamber is empty. Where the hell does pulling the trigger come into the picture?

I don't own a Glock (yet), but I've never had a gun fire on me because I racked the slide with a loaded mag inside.

Is this thing about correction officers a worrying trend or what?



What is wrong with your method described above is this: You need to rack the slide a second time to clear the chamber. What did the first racking do? Freshen it up with a new round? Why do this?


Always assume the gun is loaded. Drop the mag, THEN rack the slide to remove the cartridge in the chamber. Why duplicate effort? Especially when users have a hard enough time grasping why the slide is racked to begin with!

Or you could really have fun and rack the slide 18 times until the slide locks back. Yeah, that is another safe one!
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 7:48:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:36:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:

Originally Posted By sesat_ram:

Originally Posted By Bretshooter:

Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did.




I still don't see what's wrong with this 'wrong order'. Rack the slide with the magazine inside, then take out the magazine... then rack it again until the chamber is empty. Where the hell does pulling the trigger come into the picture?

I don't own a Glock (yet), but I've never had a gun fire on me because I racked the slide with a loaded mag inside.

Is this thing about correction officers a worrying trend or what?



What is wrong with your method described above is this: You need to rack the slide a second time to clear the chamber. What did the first racking do? Freshen it up with a new round? Why do this?


Always assume the gun is loaded. Drop the mag, THEN rack the slide to remove the cartridge in the chamber. Why duplicate effort? Especially when users have a hard enough time grasping why the slide is racked to begin with!

Or you could really have fun and rack the slide 18 times until the slide locks back. Yeah, that is another safe one!



If you rack the slide back and engage the slide stop, then you CAN'T chamber another round.
That is the way I clear all my weapons.
Slide back and locked to retrieve the round and then drop the mag.
But to each his own....
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:39:13 AM EST
The vast majority of Rattlesnake bite victims are white, male, 17-20 Y/O, drunk and indoors. We're talking 70%! Same can be said for motorcycle accident victims and silicone breast implant owners. (They tend to smoke, drink, eat badly, come from poor stock and do drugs more than the average woman. It's not the silicone, it's the lifestyle that gets them.)

Glocks are no more dangerous than other guns. It's just that a lot of nuts own Glocks "The plastic gun" because they're infamous.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:43:10 AM EST
I'm not a big fan of plastic sissy pistols, but I thought a Glock would only fire if the trigger is intentionally pulled. Now, IIRC, you actually have to pull the trigger to be able to take the weapon down for stripping/cleaning. However, one should be able to remove the magazine and empty the chamber without going anywhere near the trigger.

Sounds to me like the idiots using them just didn't understand that if you pull the trigger before you clear the chamber, you WILL get a BANG.

Sounds like DSP's, not faulty weapons.

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:47:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C. Despite that report, the FBI issues Glocks to its agents.


The FBI issues Glocks to their agents? Hmmm, last time I looked, they were carrying Springfield 1911's. Can't reporters ever get anything right?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 9:17:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 9:22:30 AM EST
article should read

"Dipsh!ts with Glocks or any other gun prone to accidents"

There's no such thing as an accidental discharge (AD) only negligent discharge. I doubt anyone has ever seen a gun sitting on the counter shoot itself.

Why dont they re-evaluate the people they are arming instead of the guns?
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 9:29:30 AM EST
Let's all pitch in and get a Glock for Bob Barr!
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:25:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hydguy:
If you rack the slide back and engage the slide stop, then you CAN'T chamber another round.
That is the way I clear all my weapons.
Slide back and locked to retrieve the round and then drop the mag.
But to each his own....



True. That is a way to do it. But that is not what sesat_ram said. He racked the slide before AND after the mag drop, and never engaged the slidestop.

I personally like my method for most users because it is a little simpler, although I have done yours many times. But it is easier to not have to manually push up the slidestop while racking the slide. Plus, with a Glock, you need to have the slide in battery and dry fire to enable disassembly.

Sure, having it locked back makes it easier to examine the chamber to verify that it is empty. But I am sure you have seen shooters that have a hard time pulling the slide back at all, without having to worry about manipulating a slidestop at the same time. Hell, I have seen someone try that and miss the stop (not fully egage it) several times. That would have had them cycling a round each time they "missed".

Yes, these are exceptions, but safety has to take them into account, especially department wide training (which must be to the lowest common denominator).

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:26:28 AM EST
If you can't hold a gun without pulling the trigger and esp. without pulling a 4.5 lb trigger (is that the standard Glock trigger pull? Or is it more like 5-6?) then you are mentally, physically, and humanly incapable of safely operating firearms. Never, ever, ever, put your finge ron the trigger unless you want to shoot. If you fumble around you deserve to get scared or shot in the foot/whatever for your own lack of skill and coordination.

Doggonit
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:42:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
If you can't hold a gun without pulling the trigger and esp. without pulling a 4.5 lb trigger (is that the standard Glock trigger pull? Or is it more like 5-6?) then you are mentally, physically, and humanly incapable of safely operating firearms. Never, ever, ever, put your finge ron the trigger unless you want to shoot. If you fumble around you deserve to get scared or shot in the foot/whatever for your own lack of skill and coordination.

Doggonit




I agree. But the potential problem(?) with Glocks is that it that if you are going to clean the gun, you HAVE to dry fire it before disassembly. So proper clearing is EXTREMELY critical at that moment.

With most other semi's, that isn't necessary. If you accidentaly leave a round in the chamber, you can still take it apart and discover your mistake in relative safety.

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:49:02 AM EST
Hell, I would never try that even with a SIG P226 or some weird handgun with a manual or even a gun that has a trigger lock! Never... ever... ever...

Practice what you teach, and teach what you practice. (If what you practice is good)

Doggonit
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:39:41 PM EST
Um... Probation Officers are not "cops", they are social workers with badges.



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