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Posted: 8/7/2002 4:36:40 AM EDT
www.syracuse.com/news/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/news-3/102872038119601.xml
Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents Three local probation officers have accidentally misfired their weapons in eight years. August 07, 2002 By John O''BrienStaff writer When a Syracuse man was struck last week by a bullet fired through the ceiling of his apartment, it marked the third time in eight years that an Onondaga County probation officer had unintentionally discharged one of the department-issued Glock pistols. Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department''s revolvers The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed. A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled. "Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving." On July 30, Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor of her second-story apartment at 1904 James St. The bullet struck her downstairs neighbor, Michael Chapman, in the chest as he was making dinner in his kitchen. Chapman''s condition improved from critical to serious this week at University Hospital. Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police. In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock. In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club. The gun''s inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said. "We took a look at what went on," Czaplicki said. "We had a group of people look at it. It raised some red flags." The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor. Cominolli, who is retired from the police, has designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glock pistols. Last year, he talked to Czaplicki about adding the device to the probation department''s guns. Czaplicki said the county then talked with Glock officials about having the device installed. But the county rejected the idea after Glock said it would void the warranty on the guns if the safeties were added, Czaplicki said. Czaplicki said his department is reconsidering the safeties in light of last week''s unintentional discharge that injured Chapman. Cominolli said he knows of dozens of "unintentional discharges" of Glocks in Central New York over the past 15 years, and estimates there have been thousands across the country. He won''t refer to them as accidents because that implies the shootings could not have been prevented. Syracuse police use Smith & Wesson firearms. No national statistics are available on which manufacturer''s handgun has the most unintentional firings. The Washington Post reported in 1998 that District of Columbia officers, who use Glock 9mm handguns, unintentionally fired their weapons more than 120 times over 10 years. In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C. Despite that report, the FBI issues Glocks to its agents. Last week, a Queens corrections officer fatally shot his son while the officer was unloading his 9mm Glock handgun in his home, according to Newsday. A police chief in Coral Gables, Fla., accidentally fired his .40-caliber Glock last month into his locker at a health club, according to The Miami Herald. The Onondaga County Sheriff''s Department, which has used Glocks since 1992, has had at least three unintentional discharges with the weapon, according to Lt. Thomas Morehouse, a firearms instructor. A deputy fired a shot that grazed his hand in 1992. A detective fired a round into the floor of his patrol car a few years ago. And a deputy accidentally pulled the trigger three years ago and fired a round into the ground at the training range, Morehouse said. In December, an Oswego County sheriff''s deputy accidentally fired his Glock handgun into the foot of a security officer at a nuclear power plant. Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he''s gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who''d shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he''s never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It''s always operator error, he said. ''Brain fade'' protection That''s why he designed the safety device and is marketing it to police agencies and private gun owners across the country. With the safety on, the trigger bar inside the gun can''t move. "If you have a brain fade and pull the trigger, it won''t go bang," Cominolli said. Newly hired probation officers in Onondaga County must carry a firearm after undergoing 35 hours of training on the shooting range and 14 hours in the classroom, Czaplicki said. Veteran officers in the department have the option of carrying a gun. Probation officers are trained by the department''s two state-certified firearms instructors, he said. Forty-one of the county''s 84 probation officers now carry a gun on the job. All carry Glocks. In response to last week''s shooting, the department is reviewing its training procedures, Czaplicki said. He wouldn''t comment on details of the shooting, except to say it''s certain that the trigger on the gun must have been pulled. Initial police reports erroneously said the gun had fired when the officer dropped it. Mark Doneburgh, Glock''s district manager for the Syracuse area, was an Onondaga County sheriff''s deputy 14 years ago when he first looked at Glocks. He questioned whether they could hold up because they''re made of plastic, so he took the gun up in a helicopter and dropped it to the ground. It didn''t break and didn''t fire, he said. Glock doesn''t fit its guns with manual safety switches because the guns have three internal "passive" safeties, Doneburgh said. Those safeties automatically disengage when someone pulls the trigger, but they prevent the gun from firing when it''s dropped or when the trigger gets bumped from the side. Remembering the safety Glocks are popular with police because the revolvers they replaced had no manual safeties, he said. The fear was that officers would have trouble getting used to having to turn off the safety in a gunfight, Doneburgh said. He studied the Glock for the sheriff''s department. "We needed a gun that we could easily transition my people with and that they could feel confident with," he said. "It''s a draw, point and shoot gun." Onondaga County Corrections Commissioner Timothy Cowin said he would not outfit his officers with Glocks until they were fitted with Cominolli''s manual safety last year. |
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"I've been in this business a long time, and I can tell you there are many, many accidental discharges that never get reported," Cowin said. "When people are holstering or drawing that weapon, they automatically put their finger in that trigger guard without even thinking about it."
With training, officers not accustomed to turning off a manual safety can make it a habit, Cowin said. Cowin said it's unclear whether the added safety means Glock will no longer honor its warranty. He said he decided to make the change anyway because the weapon is unlikely to need any repairs that the correction department's own armorer can't fix. Many accidental Glock discharges involve unloading. Doneburgh, who teaches gun safety courses at Onondaga Community College, said he always demanded perfection from his police recruits when they unloaded guns during firearms training. "I used to tell them, No. 1, mag out," he said of the need to remove the magazine before clearing the chamber. "I told them, ''Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off.'' And they believed me. Hopefully, that's going to stay with them for 20 years." Never found liable Glock doesn't fit its guns with safeties because many police officers are used to not having to switch them off and because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said. "We've never lost a lawsuit," he said. Doneburgh said he didn't know how many lawsuits the company had settled, and a lawyer for Glock could not be reached for comment. Cominolli said he's sold between 600 to 800 of the safeties to police agencies and private gun owners in the first year and has orders for more. He charges $75 a gun for law enforcement agencies. Local Glock owners can buy the device at Ra-Lin Discount in Syracuse. The Kenmore Police Department, near Buffalo, wouldn't have bought Glocks without the added safeties, Cominolli said. Twelve of the 17 police departments in Onondaga County, including the sheriff's department and state police, issue Glocks to their officers. The only ones that don't are Syracuse, DeWitt, Baldwinsville, North Syracuse and East Syracuse, Doneburgh said. DeWitt police Capt. Bruce Wahl said he chose the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic partly because it has a manual safety and another safety that makes the gun inoperable without the magazine. Officials at other police agencies, such as Camillus, said they've never had an unintentional firing of a Glock. "The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said. He said he's heard reports of a Glock being unintentionally fired, and each time it's because someone messed up; the gun itself has never malfunctioned. "We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity," he said. "You have to put warnings on things. You can't put your dog in a microwave oven to dry him. Common sense has to take over here." |
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www.syracuse.com/news/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/news-3/1028379303310530.xml
This article comes after a probation officer negligently fired her Glock and killed her downstair neighbor. |
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Another typical liberal blame the gun article. IMHO the title of this article should read:
"Experts Find Glock Owners Prone To Accidents" Mike |
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By the way Joe Cominolli is pretty cool, he did some work for me & you should see the Garand he did work on. It's beeeeeautiful. I've seen the safety he installed (I think-though I just glanced at it). I thought it was kind of small (and unnecessary of course) it looked sort of like something from a 70's era gun,a little too small and fiddly, although I'm sure it works well |
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Sounds like they've got a bunch of ill-trained LEOs using a gun that is easy make mistakes with. Not a good combination.
I also have to wonder, given the apparent level of training of these people, if it really matters what kind of gun they have. I think most police carry Glocks because of its "spray and pray" capability. Give them 6-shooters and some training. Everybody will be better off. |
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Does anybody wanna guess how many inexperienced people bought a Glock on name recognition alone? What would happen if these same rookies had purchased a double action revolver? Being safe is what prevents negligent discharges.
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I tend to agree in some respects. I don't think a gun ever "accidentally fires". Someone accidentally pulls the trigger. They characterize it as though if you laid a loaded gun on a table in a sealed room and watched through a window that, sooner or later, it would just fire. B.S. I also think that 99% of these accidents have nothing to do with what these media types see as defects. They are due to the person not paying attention, not clearing the weapon and then clearing it again to be sure. I'm sure most here agree.
That being said, I will set myself up for abuse and name calling by voicing my reason for never buying a Glock. Yes, I have handled and shot them several times but just never felt comfortable with them. The "safety" is on the trigger. That makes no sense to me from a safety standpoint. One of the big reasons for having a safety at all, in my mind, is to prevent the gun from firing should the trigger be pulled inadvertently. I have never understood why they don't even offer a manual safety as an option. If you are comfortable with it, great. I still don't think it is as safe as it could/should be. |
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I'm not a Glock fan but I believe that most loaded guns will fire if you pull the trigger to see if it is loaded.
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Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department''s revolvers
The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed. A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled. So he doesn't want Glocks to replace revolver because the Glocks don't have external safeties. How many revolvers have external safeties?? "Unloaded in the wrong order"........ Please tell me why pulling the trigger would be part of unloading a Glock at all?? Seems like 2 of the 3 accidents were when the handguns were being unloaded. Why are the unloading them? Why not secure a loaded weapon in an apropriate safe/vault/container? |
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I also read this article with some interest this morning. Cominolli squarely places the blame with operator error, but contends the Grock can be made safer with his new safety. I've seen the safety installed on a Grock at a Syracuse gunshop. I doubt I would put it on a Grock of my own, but I don't currently own one, nor would I replace my 1911 carry guns with one.
Anyhow, it seems that most armed LEOs aren't gun people, and their lack of training is painfully obvious. I've shot side by side with a number of cops "qualifying" at a couple local ranges over the years. Be afraid, very afraid-if you are an innocent bystander! In all honesty, I'd suspect that the same folks would would probably be having ADs with almost any gun issued to them, but the Glock design lends itself to perpetuating the problem in unskilled hands. Aimless, I had Joe Cominolli work on my first 1911, an early generation Officer's ACP. I was less impressed. Maybe he has improved in the 10 years or so since he did my work. |
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Christ.. "If you want to make a loud noise, press here" should be the new MKII New York PD labelling for the Glock..
"Unloading her Glock"- How? By pulling the trigger? This is the best- "In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club. The gun''s inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said."- I'm no expert, but I've never had a Glock AD/ND on me.. Is having numerous firearm accidents the basis for determining expertise in New York? Blame the machine, not the operator seems to be an easy way out for many people these days.. Meplat- |
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Right! And how is the unload procedure different for a Glock than another semi auto? Remove the magazine, THEN eject the chambered round, not the other way around, which is what that dumbass did. So the safety is to prevent the officer from making her SECOND mistake? How about training to prevent them both? |
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I still don't see what's wrong with this 'wrong order'. Rack the slide with the magazine inside, then take out the magazine... then rack it again until the chamber is empty. Where the hell does pulling the trigger come into the picture? I don't own a Glock (yet), but I've never had a gun fire on me because I racked the slide with a loaded mag inside. Is this thing about correction officers a worrying trend or what? |
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Exactly! Just curious, but how many semi-auto pistols would behave differentely from a Glock in the case of unloading. The Colt CCO I used to have (1911 based) would be no different when unloading. The manual safety on it cannot be engaged, as it blocks the slide from being moved. You do have a grip safety on it, but everyone that I have ever seen unload a pistol grips it normally when unloading. Yes, a device that disables the firing mechanism when the magazine is removed would come into play here. However, I believe they would be more protential problems than solutions. Unload in the wrong order? Cycling the slide with the magazine in place simply cycles a round...does not "unload" the chamber. I think all discharges in the article were misnamed...they should be "negligent discharges". Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to *shoot*. How many "expert" gun handlers are in the Syracuse probation dept? |
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What is wrong with your method described above is this: You need to rack the slide a second time to clear the chamber. What did the first racking do? Freshen it up with a new round? Why do this? Always assume the gun is loaded. Drop the mag, THEN rack the slide to remove the cartridge in the chamber. Why duplicate effort? Especially when users have a hard enough time grasping why the slide is racked to begin with! Or you could really have fun and rack the slide 18 times until the slide locks back. Yeah, that is another safe one! |
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What REALLY floors me about the above quote is why is this EXPERT teaching this class with a loaded weapon?????? |
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If you rack the slide back and engage the slide stop, then you CAN'T chamber another round. That is the way I clear all my weapons. Slide back and locked to retrieve the round and then drop the mag. But to each his own.... |
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The vast majority of Rattlesnake bite victims are white, male, 17-20 Y/O, drunk and indoors. We're talking 70%! Same can be said for motorcycle accident victims and silicone breast implant owners. (They tend to smoke, drink, eat badly, come from poor stock and do drugs more than the average woman. It's not the silicone, it's the lifestyle that gets them.)
Glocks are no more dangerous than other guns. It's just that a lot of nuts own Glocks "The plastic gun" because they're infamous. |
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I'm not a big fan of plastic sissy pistols, but I thought a Glock would only fire if the trigger is intentionally pulled. Now, IIRC, you actually have to pull the trigger to be able to take the weapon down for stripping/cleaning. However, one should be able to remove the magazine and empty the chamber without going anywhere near the trigger.
Sounds to me like the idiots using them just didn't understand that if you pull the trigger before you clear the chamber, you WILL get a BANG. Sounds like DSP's, not faulty weapons. |
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The FBI issues Glocks to their agents? Hmmm, last time I looked, they were carrying Springfield 1911's. Can't reporters ever get anything right? |
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article should read
"Dipsh!ts with Glocks or any other gun prone to accidents" There's no such thing as an accidental discharge (AD) only negligent discharge. I doubt anyone has ever seen a gun sitting on the counter shoot itself. Why dont they re-evaluate the people they are arming instead of the guns? |
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True. That is a way to do it. But that is not what sesat_ram said. He racked the slide before AND after the mag drop, and never engaged the slidestop. I personally like my method for most users because it is a little simpler, although I have done yours many times. But it is easier to not have to manually push up the slidestop while racking the slide. Plus, with a Glock, you need to have the slide in battery and dry fire to enable disassembly. Sure, having it locked back makes it easier to examine the chamber to verify that it is empty. But I am sure you have seen shooters that have a hard time pulling the slide back at all, without having to worry about manipulating a slidestop at the same time. Hell, I have seen someone try that and miss the stop (not fully egage it) several times. That would have had them cycling a round each time they "missed". Yes, these are exceptions, but safety has to take them into account, especially department wide training (which must be to the lowest common denominator). |
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If you can't hold a gun without pulling the trigger and esp. without pulling a 4.5 lb trigger (is that the standard Glock trigger pull? Or is it more like 5-6?) then you are mentally, physically, and humanly incapable of safely operating firearms. Never, ever, ever, put your finge ron the trigger unless you want to shoot. If you fumble around you deserve to get scared or shot in the foot/whatever for your own lack of skill and coordination.
Doggonit |
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I agree. But the potential problem(?) with Glocks is that it that if you are going to clean the gun, you HAVE to dry fire it before disassembly. So proper clearing is EXTREMELY critical at that moment. With most other semi's, that isn't necessary. If you accidentaly leave a round in the chamber, you can still take it apart and discover your mistake in relative safety. |
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Hell, I would never try that even with a SIG P226 or some weird handgun with a manual or even a gun that has a trigger lock! Never... ever... ever...
Practice what you teach, and teach what you practice. (If what you practice is good) Doggonit |
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Um... Probation Officers are not "cops", they are social workers with badges.
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