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Posted: 2/25/2007 6:14:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 4:47:42 AM EST by K1rodeoboater]
my parents are forwarding me the money for a M1. I can spend however much I want but I have to repay them come may. I've got a CD in the bank thats got a little over 1K in it. I kind of wanted to use part of that money to buy an AK kit...but i can always do that later.

So, here's the deal. The guy I'm buying the garands through goes to the CMP and hand selects the best ones. I can either get 1 or two, hopefully both field grades, but he's told me that he has found rack grades that have an erosion of 1 more than field grades and the rest of the rifles look just as good. Either way he'll refund me whatever he doesnt use. He also charges an additional $70 to go through the rifle and clean it out as well as replace anything minor that needs it. I was also going to have him pick up a spam can from the CMP. So if you have say about $1000 to spend on rifles what would you do? This is what I'm thinking

1 FG rifle + tear and tune + 1 spam can = $579.75
$454.75 + $70 + $55 = 579.75

or should I go with....

2 FG rifles + tear and tune + 1 spam can = $1104.50
$909.50 + $140 + $55 = $1104.50

Someone convince me that 2 is the way to go. I keep debating it. I kinda want to let my mom or my dad use the second one. I want to get them into shooting, and I think my mom would be more into it than my dad...he's to close minded. I'm half tempted to get a case of ammo since it's not all that much.

-Mike
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 6:51:49 PM EST
get two and save $ by cleaning them yourself.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 6:57:31 PM EST
kinda sounds like this maybe a straw purchase. ya might want to think about it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 8:40:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/25/2007 8:43:44 PM EST by K1rodeoboater]
not really....he's in Ohio, I'm in NC. He's a professional armorer, I'm not. He preps garands for matches, I'm not good enough to shoot in matches. I ordered my AR though him as well. Not only does he work on rifles, he's a dealer for DPMS, RRA, LMT, has an account with atlantic arms, he also builds some of the best custom long range rifles I've seen. He will even build a custom garand for you if you wanted. He goes and gets the donor rifle from the CMP himself.

If it were a straw purchase it would have to be average joe schmoe who buys the rifle for me and sells it to me. if you consider this a straw purchase then technically every custom rifle he builds and sells is a straw purchase because he buys the action/rifle from a dealer.

-Mike
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 9:08:43 PM EST
If this guy is purchasing and reselling from the CMP, I believe he is still limited to 12 per year.

IMHO, I would just purchase field grades from the CMP directly and clean them yourself. If you put a simple request in for a good barrel then they'll try to accomodate you. Also, it's not just $70 per rifle, but you're paying his tax ($29.75) and whatever FFL fees there are for the transfer ($20+) - so it's closer to a $125 per rifle premium that you are paying. That buys alot of ammo and/or small parts.
Link Posted: 2/25/2007 9:28:51 PM EST
I wonder if this guy is going through the rifle and picking the best parts for himself. I would order directly through the CMP instead of that guy.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 1:50:10 AM EST
it costs me an additional $54.50 per rifle to go through him ($70 - $23 = $47 add in a transfer fee of 15 for both rifles = $54.50). I know of a few people who have purchased other rifles through him, I'm not worried about him scavenging a rifle for parts and short changing me. He won't send something out if he himself wouldn't want to own and shoot it.

I have a really big problem buying sight unseen, and won't be able to drive to the north store till May...and I don't really want to wait that long so to me paying the premium is a small price to pay (not to mention it's cheaper than gas to get there and back as well as a hotel stay, gas costs would be about $50 and a hotel is usually around $80. Not to mention the cost of the time it takes to get there and back). I also have yet to send in an application to the garand collectors association, another fee to add in and consider. I'm not paying tax on his work because I'm not in Ohio so I cannot be charged sales tax on his services. I'm getting charged tax on the purchase of the rifles at the CMP north store. I know that the costs of him to go and hand select will add up to the cost of 2 spam cans, thats not the issue. I don't really know jack squat about what to look for with garands, I trust his judgment and experiences with garands over mine.

I'll be making a trip out there sometime in the summer to buy 2 carbines, don't know when but I'll be out there probably towards the end of summer.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 2:00:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
it costs me an additional $54.50 per rifle to go through him ($70 - $23 = $47 add in a transfer fee of 15 for both rifles = $54.50). I know of a few people who have purchased other rifles through him, I'm not worried about him scavenging a rifle for parts and short changing me. He won't send something out if he himself wouldn't want to own and shoot it.

I have a really big problem buying sight unseen, and won't be able to drive to the north store till May...and I don't really want to wait that long so to me paying the premium is a small price to pay (not to mention it's cheaper than gas to get there and back as well as a hotel stay, gas costs would be about $50 and a hotel is usually around $80. Not to mention the cost of the time it takes to get there and back). I also have yet to send in an application to the garand collectors association, another fee to add in and consider. I'm not paying tax on his work because I'm not in Ohio so I cannot be charged sales tax on his services. I'm getting charged tax on the purchase of the rifles at the CMP north store. I know that the costs of him to go and hand select will add up to the cost of 2 spam cans, thats not the issue. I don't really know jack squat about what to look for with garands, I trust his judgment and experiences with garands over mine.

I'll be making a trip out there sometime in the summer to buy 2 carbines, don't know when but I'll be out there probably towards the end of summer.


Just trying to watch out for you with what i typed before. If he has a good rep I guess you should be ok..
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 2:12:20 AM EST
it's all good, I know what you mean and the AR he built for me I was skeptical of myself, but after asking around and meeting a few people who he's sold to my worries quickly went away. I just wish I wasn't so freaking paranoid buying sight unseen, but the added fact that even if I went there I can read all I want but I really won't know until I've seen many garands myself and thats not the kind of knowledge I can obtain in a day of looking through the racks.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 2:27:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 2:34:17 AM EST by goodoleboy]
I cant make it out there till summer also and dont know what to look for myself. But I plan on going for a few days and take the family. Go to the beach etc.. The first day will be spent asking staff what to look for and talking their ear off with questions..
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 2:34:04 AM EST
Buy two. You can always earn more money. You won't find hand-picked M1s for less later. You won't regret having two Garands, and your family and your children will thank you for securing this piece of American history.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 3:01:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Buy two. You can always earn more money. You won't find hand-picked M1s for less later. You won't regret having two Garands, and your family and your children will thank you for securing this piece of American history.


Thats the exact pitch I used on my parents to convince them to forward me the money. If I find I don't really use one, I can always sell it later. I'm going to get two if possible...hopefully two field grades with nice stocks and guts, but I don't mind refinishing wood. Going to give the guy a call today and ask him how much I need to write the check for.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 4:04:32 AM EST
I would not support the business of a CMP profiteer. The statement that you fill out to purchase the rifles expressly states that you agree you are not buying rifles for resale. I would not worry about luck of the draw if I were you. One thing you may want to take into consideration is that most people getting these field and rack grade rifles that gauge so well are not telling you that the bores are dark or frosty. If you buy a field or rack grade, no matter how well it gauges, I would not expect a bright and shiny bore. I would just order them yourself. They are the only program you can order a firearm that will be legally shipped directly to your door without an FFL. I thought that was the most exciting part of getting something from the CMP. On top of that, if you clean the rifle up yourself, you will learn how your rifle works inside and out. There is a guide on disassembly on the CMP website that will take you thru it step by step. IMHO, if you knowingly purchase a CMP rifle thru some one else, you are shortchanging your self on the whole experience.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 4:39:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By mnandy:
I would not support the business of a CMP profiteer. The statement that you fill out to purchase the rifles expressly states that you agree you are not buying rifles for resale. I would not worry about luck of the draw if I were you. One thing you may want to take into consideration is that most people getting these field and rack grade rifles that gauge so well are not telling you that the bores are dark or frosty. If you buy a field or rack grade, no matter how well it gauges, I would not expect a bright and shiny bore. I would just order them yourself. They are the only program you can order a firearm that will be legally shipped directly to your door without an FFL. I thought that was the most exciting part of getting something from the CMP. On top of that, if you clean the rifle up yourself, you will learn how your rifle works inside and out. There is a guide on disassembly on the CMP website that will take you thru it step by step. IMHO, if you knowingly purchase a CMP rifle thru some one else, you are shortchanging your self on the whole experience.


I agree, Having to join a Collectors/Shooters Association is a good cause also sicne they support the shooting sport.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 4:46:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 4:49:37 AM EST by K1rodeoboater]
I'm going to submit an application to join in a week when I'm home for spring break. CMP's gonna get my money either way. And besides, they're fools if they think people who buy 12 rifles per year aren't stockpiling them to sell them off when there aren't any left or are selling a few here or there at inflated costs. Like I said though, I'll be going to the north store in May once I've got some cash and can get 2 carbines. If there are any decent garands left one may find it's way into my car for the drive home...might also make a stop off in harisburg to pick up a new stock for it at dougs stockpile.

My 2 problems are 1 I'm paranoid about purchasing something thats used that I don't select myself, and 2 I don't have time to go to the north store or the south store till may at the earliest. If I could got get them myself and if I had the time to I would do so. I'd be bringing along a folder full of articles about what to look out for
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 6:53:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By mnandy:
I would not support the business of a CMP profiteer. The statement that you fill out to purchase the rifles expressly states that you agree you are not buying rifles for resale. I would not worry about luck of the draw if I were you. One thing you may want to take into consideration is that most people getting these field and rack grade rifles that gauge so well are not telling you that the bores are dark or frosty. If you buy a field or rack grade, no matter how well it gauges, I would not expect a bright and shiny bore. I would just order them yourself. They are the only program you can order a firearm that will be legally shipped directly to your door without an FFL. I thought that was the most exciting part of getting something from the CMP. On top of that, if you clean the rifle up yourself, you will learn how your rifle works inside and out. There is a guide on disassembly on the CMP website that will take you thru it step by step. IMHO, if you knowingly purchase a CMP rifle thru some one else, you are shortchanging your self on the whole experience.


While I agree with most of what you said and I personally think that people that buy from CMP are lowlifes to whom obviously their word means nothing, the part about the bore is simply not necessarily true.

I have bought several Field Grades, woodless Dane Rack Grades, and this past weekend an H&R Rack Grade that all gauge within Service Grade specs and every one of them had nice rifling and shiny bores. That is part of the experience of going to CMP yourself, being able to see them for yourself.

One that I bought a few months back had a bore that looked pretty bad, but after cleaning the bore real well with a brush and firing a few rounds, the bore looks brand new. All of them have bores that look great and they are all good shooters.

Besides, if a rifle gauges good, why would the bore be shot out? That would be contradictory. If the bore looks bad, it would be because of not being cleaned but usually a good cleaning will take care of that.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 6:55:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:
not really....he's in Ohio, I'm in NC. He's a professional armorer, I'm not. He preps garands for matches, I'm not good enough to shoot in matches. I ordered my AR though him as well. Not only does he work on rifles, he's a dealer for DPMS, RRA, LMT, has an account with atlantic arms, he also builds some of the best custom long range rifles I've seen. He will even build a custom garand for you if you wanted. He goes and gets the donor rifle from the CMP himself.

If it were a straw purchase it would have to be average joe schmoe who buys the rifle for me and sells it to me. if you consider this a straw purchase then technically every custom rifle he builds and sells is a straw purchase because he buys the action/rifle from a dealer.

-Mike


Is he an FFL? Does he send it to a local FFL for you to do the paperwork? If not, it is a straw purchase. On top of that, those that buy from CMP with the intention of reselling have no integrity and my opinion of people like that is less than stellar.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 8:48:25 AM EST
I hope Orest catches him.
'Borg
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 9:12:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 9:26:22 AM EST by K1rodeoboater]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Is he an FFL? Does he send it to a local FFL for you to do the paperwork? If not, it is a straw purchase. On top of that, those that buy from CMP with the intention of reselling have no integrity and my opinion of people like that is less than stellar.


I mentioned several times that he's a dealer for a few different AR companies as well as a custom rifle builder...so yeah he's a FFL 01. The fact he operates a rifle business out of his shop takes orders for multiple different kinds of rifles should be a good indicator. I also mentioned several times a $15 transfer fee that I have to pay. I have to fill out that form for the ATF just like anyone else. I'm well aware of the legality issues of a straw purchase and wouldn't be purchasing a firearm in that manner anyways. Someone who does straw purchases wouldn't have such large public praise from so many people.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 12:25:52 PM EST
Getting two is a no brainer. Then rabbit magic can happen.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 1:59:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By mnandy:
I would not support the business of a CMP profiteer. The statement that you fill out to purchase the rifles expressly states that you agree you are not buying rifles for resale. I would not worry about luck of the draw if I were you. One thing you may want to take into consideration is that most people getting these field and rack grade rifles that gauge so well are not telling you that the bores are dark or frosty. If you buy a field or rack grade, no matter how well it gauges, I would not expect a bright and shiny bore. I would just order them yourself. They are the only program you can order a firearm that will be legally shipped directly to your door without an FFL. I thought that was the most exciting part of getting something from the CMP. On top of that, if you clean the rifle up yourself, you will learn how your rifle works inside and out. There is a guide on disassembly on the CMP website that will take you thru it step by step. IMHO, if you knowingly purchase a CMP rifle thru some one else, you are shortchanging your self on the whole experience.


While I agree with most of what you said and I personally think that people that buy from CMP are lowlifes to whom obviously their word means nothing, the part about the bore is simply not necessarily true.

I have bought several Field Grades, woodless Dane Rack Grades, and this past weekend an H&R Rack Grade that all gauge within Service Grade specs and every one of them had nice rifling and shiny bores. That is part of the experience of going to CMP yourself, being able to see them for yourself.

One that I bought a few months back had a bore that looked pretty bad, but after cleaning the bore real well with a brush and firing a few rounds, the bore looks brand new. All of them have bores that look great and they are all good shooters.

Besides, if a rifle gauges good, why would the bore be shot out? That would be contradictory. If the bore looks bad, it would be because of not being cleaned but usually a good cleaning will take care of that.


A dark or frosty bore doesn't always mean the barrel is shot out. My Dane LW has an original 1943 barrel on it. The MW gauges in the 3ish range, but is dark, like an old sewer pipe. It isn't shot out by any means. It has just seen lots of corrosive ammo. I have cleaned and cleaned but it won't get any better.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 4:25:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Is he an FFL? Does he send it to a local FFL for you to do the paperwork? If not, it is a straw purchase. On top of that, those that buy from CMP with the intention of reselling have no integrity and my opinion of people like that is less than stellar.


I mentioned several times that he's a dealer for a few different AR companies as well as a custom rifle builder...so yeah he's a FFL 01. The fact he operates a rifle business out of his shop takes orders for multiple different kinds of rifles should be a good indicator. I also mentioned several times a $15 transfer fee that I have to pay. I have to fill out that form for the ATF just like anyone else. I'm well aware of the legality issues of a straw purchase and wouldn't be purchasing a firearm in that manner anyways. Someone who does straw purchases wouldn't have such large public praise from so many people.


Just making sure. It doesn't change my loathing for someone who buys from CMP with the intention of reselling.
Link Posted: 2/26/2007 4:33:14 PM EST
buy one and a bunch of ammo. That's my vote. Although the alternitave isn't a bad option either. I just would rather get one runnin and shoot it to beat the band.
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