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12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 9/27/2011 8:16:30 AM EST
I used this round for hunting last year and used 150 gr sst's. I killed 2 deer with it and a pig. All shots were within 80 yards. This year id like to maybe load some subsonic 168's and use my new silencer. You think the 168 gr smk's would be good to use? Or should I go with Amax? Ive got lots of sst's and ttsx's and a few others. Im just wondering on a thin skinned deer at such a low velocity if it would work that well. I know that any bullet if placed right will do the job.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 10:45:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2011 10:49:13 AM EST by garred8787]
what is the rate of twist of your barrel? also are you limited to subsonic only? if your open to supersonic why not try a 110gr ttsx under some 1680? seen some fairly impressive kills with 7.62x40 with that bullet in a 11.5" rifle. if looking for subsonic only maybe try bullets designed for 30-30. I would not expect a smk or a-max to expand at subsonic velocity's. they would probably yaw though and cause some serious damage that way. why not go for the heavyweights if going that route. 220+gr
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 10:52:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 12:23:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2011 12:25:52 PM EST by EWP]
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 12:46:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2011 12:49:09 PM EST by glk34]
Yes we in MO can save our hearing. I just reread the prohibited methods and it doesnt state silencers, but does say no fully automatic. I may just go with supers, Its still pretty quiet on the shooting end. Maybe the deer wont be able to locate where the sound came from. I just thought it'd be fun to play with the load a little more, and what better way to test then hunting. I may try some of the 110's too. Does anyone have a trajectory chart for this round yet?

edit: I forgot to ask. Since this round is suppossed to be a le, mil round, isnt somone doing a little r&d for the low velocity expansion?
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 4:40:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 4:52:02 PM EST
Outlaw Outlaw State Bullets makes expanding 30 caliber subsonic bullets. Note: I haven't personally tested them YET...I intend on doing so. Expensive, but then they are custom made and you won't be shooting them everyday.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 4:58:49 PM EST
Check out Nosler 125 grn Ballistic tips.

Rob
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 5:21:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By WholeBunches:
Outlaw Outlaw State Bullets makes expanding 30 caliber subsonic bullets. Note: I haven't personally tested them YET...I intend on doing so. Expensive, but then they are custom made and you won't be shooting them everyday.


Thanks. I wonder how they will cycle in the ar platform.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 5:32:23 PM EST
Sort of an aside but I don't think you can get a 168 grain bullet to cycle without having a huge gas port that makes supers unfeasible. You are working against the laws of physics in that you don't have enough force pushing back on the BCG due to the light bullet weight and low powder charges to stay below 1050 FPS. AAC recommends 220 grain bullets or higher to have the same cyclic rate that Colt specs the M4 at for the highest reliability rate.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 6:19:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Sort of an aside but I don't think you can get a 168 grain bullet to cycle without having a huge gas port that makes supers unfeasible. You are working against the laws of physics in that you don't have enough force pushing back on the BCG due to the light bullet weight and low powder charges to stay below 1050 FPS. AAC recommends 220 grain bullets or higher to have the same cyclic rate that Colt specs the M4 at for the highest reliability rate.


I dont know for sure. I am just getting into the subsonic game. I read a load that was for 168's so I figured I try it. I have an adjustable gas block so I can open it wide open if needed. For now the barrel I have is 16" but when my pending stamp comes in my barrel will shrink.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 6:22:38 PM EST
lead 170+gr lead bullet
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 12:49:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 1:00:54 AM EST by Recoil737]
Originally Posted By glk34:
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Sort of an aside but I don't think you can get a 168 grain bullet to cycle without having a huge gas port that makes supers unfeasible. You are working against the laws of physics in that you don't have enough force pushing back on the BCG due to the light bullet weight and low powder charges to stay below 1050 FPS. AAC recommends 220 grain bullets or higher to have the same cyclic rate that Colt specs the M4 at for the highest reliability rate.


I dont know for sure. I am just getting into the subsonic game. I read a load that was for 168's so I figured I try it. I have an adjustable gas block so I can open it wide open if needed. For now the barrel I have is 16" but when my pending stamp comes in my barrel will shrink.


Even with a adjustable gas block full open you won't be able to get 168's to reliably cycle using them as subsonics. The gas port would have to be expanded larger than normal and a lighter buffer would need to be added. Even with those adjustments the AR still probably won't reliably cycle. It takes at least 200 gr bullets to get a reliable subsonic cycle in the ARs and I would recommend as a minimum of 220gr if you want a gun that will cycle when its cold and the rifle is dirty.

As the poster above mentioned these Outlaw bullets will work real well in an AR shooting subs and will expand when hitting a soft target.

AAC has said that there are numerous bullets in the works specifically designed for the 300 BLK that should be out over the next year. Until then the 208 A-Max expands OK in the larger pigs but the best bet is still the high priced Outlaw bullets.

If you haven't shot pigs before with a subsonic round and silencer it is just awesome.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 1:59:06 AM EST
The outlaw bullets look promising however I took a different approach. Read several different postings how the subsonic bullets tumbled on impact. tested the theory in water and wet phone books and my results were very promising.

178gr hornady AMAX
10.1 gr 1680
935 fps
16 inch 1-10 twist .125 gas port in carbine position



Entrance


Exit


It had definitively either started to tumble or had already been going backwards when it exited. The lungs looked like they had been split in half from the side.

This year I might get some of those outlaw bullets, or maybe will use 200 grain SMKs
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 4:33:33 AM EST
I should've taken pics of the animals I shot last year. One of the yearlings I shot entered perfect behind the shoulder and then exited right beneath the shoulder on the opposit side, deflected down and blew out the elbow and the only thing holding the rest of the leg on was a thin piece of skin. I shot that one while it was running at about 70 yards. It only ran another 25-30 after that piled up and was done. That was with a 150 gr sst. For the pigs I had loaded 130 gr ttsx's with 16.5 gr's H110.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:54:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 9:59:32 AM EST by SecurityForcesmember]
Originally Posted By glk34:
Yes we in MO can save our hearing. I just reread the prohibited methods and it doesnt state silencers, but does say no fully automatic. I may just go with supers, Its still pretty quiet on the shooting end. Maybe the deer wont be able to locate where the sound came from. I just thought it'd be fun to play with the load a little more, and what better way to test then hunting. I may try some of the 110's too. Does anyone have a trajectory chart for this round yet?

edit: I forgot to ask. Since this round is suppossed to be a le, mil round, isnt somone doing a little r&d for the low velocity expansion?



Shoot the load over a chrono than head to JBM ballistics and build your own chart. It will be much more accurate. How do you like the .300 blackout? Really thinking about tradding off an unused AR for an .300 upper!
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 3:00:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By glk34:
Yes we in MO can save our hearing. I just reread the prohibited methods and it doesnt state silencers, but does say no fully automatic. I may just go with supers, Its still pretty quiet on the shooting end. Maybe the deer wont be able to locate where the sound came from. I just thought it'd be fun to play with the load a little more, and what better way to test then hunting. I may try some of the 110's too. Does anyone have a trajectory chart for this round yet?

edit: I forgot to ask. Since this round is suppossed to be a le, mil round, isnt somone doing a little r&d for the low velocity expansion?



Shoot the load over a chrono than head to JBM ballistics and build your own chart. It will be much more accurate. How do you like the .300 blackout? Really thinking about tradding off an unused AR for an .300 upper!


Love the round. Its very versitile and all thats needed is a barrel. Same mags and bolt. I had a 7.62x39 that I had built to be my hunting AR but I never could get any of the mags to run right, even after they sent me 12 brand new ones. I tried 26 different mags and all sucked. I also didnt like the limited bullet selection. One night I started reading about it and saw a barrel for sale so I bought it, sold everything I owned for the x39 and never looked back. Now I have an AAC7.62 SD for it and am reloving it all over again. Gonna throw the NV on it and try for a pig this weekend and then next weekend our urban Doe hunt starts so Im gonna try it out with the can on for some meat.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 3:09:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By EWP:
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.


Match bullets have thin jackets. Most manufacturers recommend not to use for hunting because they will expand rapidly without penetration for clean kill.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 8:20:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rocket2Mars:
Originally Posted By EWP:
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.


Match bullets have thin jackets. Most manufacturers recommend not to use for hunting because they will expand rapidly without penetration for clean kill.


this is why I was thinking the SMK's would work do to the slower velocities and thinner jackets. I dont think Id use a 168 smk in my .308 to hunt but the .300 Id think would work. I will hopefully try out the sst's again next weekend. I am hoping to try out the 130 ttsx's this weekend on a piggy.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:49:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By glk34:
Originally Posted By Rocket2Mars:
Originally Posted By EWP:
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.


Match bullets have thin jackets. Most manufacturers recommend not to use for hunting because they will expand rapidly without penetration for clean kill.


this is why I was thinking the SMK's would work do to the slower velocities and thinner jackets. I dont think Id use a 168 smk in my .308 to hunt but the .300 Id think would work. I will hopefully try out the sst's again next weekend. I am hoping to try out the 130 ttsx's this weekend on a piggy.


I would tend to agree. Matchkings will probably blow up on deer at 308 velocities but should hold together MUCH better at the lower speeds you're talking about.
The relationship between bullet velocity and terminal performance is a complex and interesting one, for sure....
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 11:25:04 AM EST
I went ahead and picked up some Allient 2400 and 100 208 gr. Amax's. Will post results when I can.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 12:36:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rocket2Mars:
Originally Posted By EWP:
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.


Match bullets have thin jackets. Most manufacturers recommend not to use for hunting because they will expand rapidly without penetration for clean kill.


My testing on water and in Wet phone books, of the 200 and 220 grain SMKs subsonic show that they will not expand, they will tumble but they will not expand. I have also tested at .308 velocities with the 200gr and did also not get expansion. My understanding and my experimenting, which could be wrong, is that SMKs are not designed to expand at any velocities.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 3:24:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By garyd:
Originally Posted By Rocket2Mars:
Originally Posted By EWP:
No hunting deer with suppressors here either and no hunting large game with sub-soinc non-expanding bullets, that's a bad ideal and will result in lost game from the pencil hole wounds.

Most bullets will need at least 1600 - 1800 fps to properly expand, even match bullets with thick jackets wont expand reliably at sub-sonic velocities.


Match bullets have thin jackets. Most manufacturers recommend not to use for hunting because they will expand rapidly without penetration for clean kill.


My testing on water and in Wet phone books, of the 200 and 220 grain SMKs subsonic show that they will not expand, they will tumble but they will not expand. I have also tested at .308 velocities with the 200gr and did also not get expansion. My understanding and my experimenting, which could be wrong, is that SMKs are not designed to expand at any velocities.


I have pulled 220gr SMK out of all kinds of material and found some almost good enough to shoot again. The bullet will tumble a little bit but are so long and slow moving when shooting subsonic they tend to just get redirected rather than continue tumbling.

I have had almost none of the SMKs expand in any way short of shooting it at steel or a rock. I have pushed them supersonic but not to .308 speeds even then I still don't see them getting any real expansion at those speeds.

The 208gr V-max was better as expansion with subsonic velocities but in no way did it just fall apart like it probably would if shot at .308 speeds.

I just like to shoot heavier grains to get the most energy and cyclic capability from the rifle when shooting subs and I hope as the 300BLK gets more popular that a manufacturer will come out with a less expensive 220gr+ subsonic expandable bullet.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:58:55 PM EST
I loaded some 208's the other day with 8.2 and 8.4 gr of 2400. I am still just a hair over super. I will try 8 gr's next batch and hopefully get better results. I was getting them to cycle enough to extract and eject but not quite enough to pick up the next round. I didnt have a wrench for my gas block so I couldnt open it. I am wondering if im getting just over super because I have a 16" barrel.
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