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Posted: 6/18/2011 9:33:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2011 6:01:11 PM EDT by WiNdTeCh]
I have been building loads for my Custom AR-15 rifle for about 2 years on and off, below is a link to my load data spreadsheet.

LOAD DATA PDF FYI 5 shot groups at 100 yrds


http://www.myitcrew.net/AR-15Left.JPG
http://www.myitcrew.net/AR-15Right.JPG

Through alot of reading I find that most people have a hard time getting .500" groups at 100yrds, that being said, it's very easy for me to get 1/2 MOA  or better as seen by the spreadsheet (in pdf format for everyone)
So I'm looking for people who have personally gotten the .250" groups I'm looking for, and to share some secrets, load data, and parts.
Thanks, I hope there is someone out there getting these groups.

Reloading Equipment:
Bonanza (Forster) CO-AX
Redding Comp Dies
RCBS Powder thrower

My AR-15 Build:
DPMS Upper w/ 20" DPMS BBL
Double Star Lower
Les Baer Bolt Carrier group
Magpul PRS Stock w/ mono-pod
Tubbs Flatwire buffer spring
JP Trigger
JP Adjustable gas block
JP Float tube
JP expanding take down pin
Ergo Grip
Burris Black Diamond 8-32x50 on Burris tactical rings

I'm looking at getting a nice billet lower, other than that, can anyone point me in the directions of any better parts..?

I think I named all the parts....



Also to show you I can shoot here is some info on my baby... my Cooper .223

Cooper Load Data

http://www.myitcrew.net/Cooper.JPG

Link Posted: 6/18/2011 12:06:43 PM EDT
I have shot one or two groups that size with my D-Tech gunsmithed AR-15 but I generally am more of a 1/2 - 3/4' MOA shooter at best.  I am looking forward to reading the responses.  A consistent .25 MOA rifle is an amazing and rare thing.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 12:40:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 12:48:38 PM EDT
I think you will be interested in reading "The Ultimate In rifle Accuracy" By Glenn Newick.
The people shooting these kind of groups are using slow twist 6mm cartridges with light bullets, at very high velocity, in bolt guns. Its called Bench Rest Shooting, and they compete at 100 or 200 yards, so its short range though very precise, and many of the techniques they use can be used in hunting or other types of competition.
Some of these techniques I've adopted are Case Neck turning, Primer pocket uniforming, Flash Hole deburing, Sorting Cases by weight as well as by head stamp, and neck sizing or partial full length sizing where action type permits it, not auto loaders of course, or pumps and lever actions.
The proper mating of the scope to the action, and the action to the stock, is what I personally see as the most common mistake among those friends I shoot with and I've been guilty of this myself in the past, but that is how you learn too, if you have a real interest in the shooting sport and you don't have to shoot competitive to learn to shoot precision long range, though it might help. I've never had the time or money for that, but I now have a battery of very well tuned rifles, though none of them are very expensive, and ammo for them.  
Keep it fun!
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 1:03:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2011 1:07:31 PM EDT by WiNdTeCh]
Excellent replies guys!

I will order that book asap, I've actually never read a book on guns at all, only forums and "here say".

So far I'm doing alright I think, even without proper breathing and trigger control, makes me want to find a "professional" and have him shoot my guns to see their potential.

Also I don't weight my cases, or uniform primer pockets, or turn necks... (Does that really give you an edge?) You saying that almost makes me want to do it just to see if I can get my Cooper literally shooting 1 round hole groups.. I know my AR can't but I'm still hoping for 1/4 MOA, If I don't get it, I may sell the rifle and start over.

Would it be possible to see a spreadsheet of your (anyone) loads and groups similar to mine?
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 1:16:30 PM EDT
The most accurate ammunition is going to be obtained with attention to detail in your loading process.
Flash hole uniforming
Neck turning
Checking for excessive runnout and minimizing runnout
Primer pocket uniforming/cleaning
weighing each and every charge
weighing each and every case and sorting them accordingly and firing them accordingly
weighing each and every bullet and sorting them accordingly
Many other things as well to provide consistency.

One of the best things you can do is to get Randolph Constantine's book Modern Highpower book. It's big, it's heavy, it's very detailed and very precise, and it's more than you can take in the first few times you go through it. However, it covers so much in so much detail it's well worth reading over and over.

Do everything you can exactly the same in all thing related to your shooting. From the reloading process-your rifle set up and care-cleaning etc.-Your prep for yourself-and then all the way to the follow through of the trigger pull.

Then there's that dang wind and mirage. Constantine's book covers that as well.
[

Link Posted: 6/18/2011 1:22:17 PM EDT
Another book  

Here's a question I've always wanted to know....

What groups are people shooting at competitions at 100yrds with a.223 AR and .223 Rifle?

I've heard I should compete in a stock rifle class with my Cooper or something like that they said, I don't really think I or my guns are that good, especially if I don't do half of what you said in the post above.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 2:10:31 PM EDT
Completely doable once you have a good load / rifle combo.
5-shots at 100-yards. 77gr Nosler's. The target in the background was the same load at 400-yards. And thats my hunting rifle lol.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 2:35:58 PM EDT
Can I get some info on your rifle, barrel length and twist?
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 3:58:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2011 4:03:06 PM EDT by Wingman26]
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 4:02:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2011 4:03:20 PM EDT by ScEd1]
Sure, this rifle is a Bushmaster NM Lower that Lives on my hunting rigg when I'm not shooting a match. This upper is a Rock River flat-top with a 20" blued/button rifled Wilson 1-9" twist barrel. I assume the BCG is RR but no way to know for sure. The scope is a 6-20X50AO with decent glass but nothing fancy.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 4:49:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2011 4:52:18 PM EDT by WiNdTeCh]
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
I don't own a primer pocket uniformer
At the time my group posted above was shot, I didn't own a flash hole deburring tool, I do now
I don't own a neck uniforming tool
I don't weigh my cases
I don't weigh my bullets
I don't weigh my charges, they are all thrown on a standard Dillon powder measure
Most cases are mil surplus assorted years, no attempt at sorting
I don't check concentricity
All reloads are done on a Dillon RL550 with standard Dillon dies
I use Hornady bulk bullets, 55 gr spire points, deadly on prairie dogs and coyotes

The rifle is a home built AR using a Shaw stainless bull barrel with a 1-8 twist
Nikon Buckmaster 6-18 power scope, Burris Tactical rings, and a JP trigger

http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/AR-2008-1.jpg  



I like your style :D Your gun is close to mine (before the stock upgrade) How long is your barrel?

Originally Posted By ScEd1:
Sure, this rifle is a Bushmaster NM Lower that Lives on my hunting rigg when I'm not shooting a match. This upper is a Rock River flat-top with a 20" blued/button rifled Wilson 1-9" twist barrel. I assume the BCG is RR but no way to know for sure. The scope is a 6-20X50AO with decent glass but nothing fancy.


How much was the Wilson barrel? I'm interested!
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 5:15:56 PM EDT
Many of the things mentioned do not contribute as much at 100 yards, but add up dramatically as distance increases. Many of the things may subtract 1/32 or 1/16 from you groups at 100 but at 300 will become important. You mentioned you want to shoot competitions, and those slight advantages make a huge difference when it comes time to add up the score. OP, if you want to really consistently shoot tight groups at anything over 100 yards it would be best to listen to the advice of some of the guys here, and pick up the books mentioned, and get more trigger time. You're on the right track by asking questions. The reason I recommended the book I did, is because Mr. Constantine is/ or was/  a High Master in High Power in more than one discipline, including service rifle. Very knowledgeable members of many forums recommend this book. Members of TheHighRoad, Snipershide-M14 firing line etc have all listed it as a must read for new and advanced shooters that plan to shoot competitions, whether it be reduced matches(300Yards), 600 yards, or across the course matches of 1,000 yards.
Good luck , I have no doubt that you will get where you want to go with this.
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 5:22:24 PM EDT
Thank you, I will be buying the books and reading, heck I may not even be back on here for a while because I'll be reading. :D Thanks for everything guys!
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 8:18:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2011 8:50:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1903pa:
I think you will be interested in reading "The Ultimate In rifle Accuracy" By Glenn Newick.


That is, indeed, a good book.  Kind of old, but still... a TON of good information.

To OP:  Getting 1/4" with a factory barrel (especially not a high-name factory) is, indeed, something to brag about, IMHO.  Yes, there's  a ton of technique that is involved (and you have obviously worked on that), but equipment can not be completely eliminated.
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 3:50:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WiNdTeCh:
Originally Posted By Wingman26:
I don't own a primer pocket uniformer
At the time my group posted above was shot, I didn't own a flash hole deburring tool, I do now
I don't own a neck uniforming tool
I don't weigh my cases
I don't weigh my bullets
I don't weigh my charges, they are all thrown on a standard Dillon powder measure
Most cases are mil surplus assorted years, no attempt at sorting
I don't check concentricity
All reloads are done on a Dillon RL550 with standard Dillon dies
I use Hornady bulk bullets, 55 gr spire points, deadly on prairie dogs and coyotes

The rifle is a home built AR using a Shaw stainless bull barrel with a 1-8 twist
Nikon Buckmaster 6-18 power scope, Burris Tactical rings, and a JP trigger

http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/AR-2008-1.jpg  



I like your style :D Your gun is close to mine (before the stock upgrade) How long is your barrel?

Originally Posted By ScEd1:
Sure, this rifle is a Bushmaster NM Lower that Lives on my hunting rigg when I'm not shooting a match. This upper is a Rock River flat-top with a 20" blued/button rifled Wilson 1-9" twist barrel. I assume the BCG is RR but no way to know for sure. The scope is a 6-20X50AO with decent glass but nothing fancy.


How much was the Wilson barrel? I'm interested!

First to the OP, I forgot to welcome you to the forum so Welcome!
This upper is as ordinary as a flat-top AR comes. A Wilson 20" Barrel is the barrel used by Rock River, DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag, etc as far as I know.  Your stainless barrel is most likely a Wilson. That bi-pod on your rifle is the greatest thing in the world for shooting-up a dogtown but for target shooting, not so much. Hang out here long enough and you will learn a-lot. When you find the right load for your rifle you will know.
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 9:51:55 AM EDT
Yea it's possible but IMHO not a common occurrance. Here are some of my best groups





Link Posted: 6/19/2011 12:00:39 PM EDT
There was an OBR Lite that had a test target of like .177" which of course used factory ammo.







Mine came with .338"
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 2:20:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2011 5:59:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2011 6:04:03 PM EDT by InfiniteGrim]
Looks like the 60gr VMAX shoots amazing for you. DOes it consistently shoot .285" groups for you? You are confusing me because you said its hard for you to get .500" gruops but you have atleast 10 loads that do .500" and under.  AlsoWhen you say <5 shot groups, do you mea 5 shot groups or LESS than 5 shot groups?

My biggest piece of advice is switch to Sierra Projectiles, then (if that doesn't satisfy you) get a  Kreiger barrel, they are supposed to be the best.

I shot hundreds of rounds of Hornady projectiles and couldn't get under .6" @ 100 yards. I bought 100 Sierra 69gr SMK's and within the first 3 5 round groups I shot my smallest group at the time of .343"


EDIT: Forgot to add that I trim with a Possum Hollow trimmer, I do not uniform the primer pockets, but I do deburr the flash holes. I try to use R&P 223 brass as that seems to work the best.
Link Posted: 6/21/2011 6:06:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2011 6:11:32 PM EDT by WiNdTeCh]
Thanks for everyones help and I love pictures. I also didn't know DPMS barrels were Wilson.. I'll have to look into that.

Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Looks like the 60gr VMAX shoots amazing for you. DOes it consistently shoot .285" groups for you?The loads you see are only 1 time loads of 5 rounds, all shot at 1 target and then measured, I have not and I do not claim to be able to shoot this everytime, this is only trying to see what my rifle is capable of and narrowing down the best loads so I can then further my loads by .2gr increments, primer pocket reaming, different primers and so on... many more experiments to come once I get her dialed in You are confusing me because you said its hard for you to get .500" gruops I said it is hard for most as in other people to get .5" groups, not myself but you have atleast 10 loads that do .500" and under.  AlsoWhen you say <5 shot groups I went back and edited it, I can see where you were confused, It was supose to be just a pointer to the load data, because I don't have the 5 shot groups on my load data pdf YET, but I will, I also added at 100yrds., do you mea 5 shot groups or LESS than 5 shot groups?

My biggest piece of advice is switch to Sierra Projectiles,As you can see by my test loads I am trying 60g sierra's, as sierra's are my best bullets in my Cooper I'd like to keep with the theme, also I'm order some 55gr Blitzkings for the AR to see how something lighter acts then (if that doesn't satisfy you) get a  Kreiger barrel, they are supposed to be the best.
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