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Page Armory » M-16
Posted: 8/28/2010 6:45:42 AM EDT
Will any of the .22 conversion kits run reliably through a short barrel full auto or would I need to get a dedicated upper like a Spikes?
Link Posted: 8/28/2010 6:52:24 AM EDT
Most .22 kits in ar15's require tweaking to run full auto. Some people get lucky with theirs, but not most.
Link Posted: 8/28/2010 7:38:04 AM EDT
Mine runs. Ciener kit, Spikes trip and Ciener bounce weight.
Link Posted: 8/28/2010 10:48:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2010 10:50:59 AM EDT by Shermantor-AR15]
It's all black magic, when it comes to the .22 LR Full Auto on an M16.

FWIW, The complete dedicated Spike's would never run well for me. I am only guessing but I think their bolts are too heavy.

I built a dedicated .22LR upper, using a CMMG bolt, Spike's dedicated Collar, spikes(green mountain) barrel, Wilson Combat A3 upper, YHM FF Forend rails.

Also a lot of the issues are ammo related. To prevent bolt bounce you have to have a stifer spring and the anit bounce weight. So basically sub sonic, match, or standard velocity and some High Velocity ammo wouldn't cycle the bolt and extract the shells effectively causing stove piping issues. So the way you preven stove piping is by reducing the weight of the bolt ie cut coils off the spring until it stops stove piping. Or you can add a Silencer to help with back pressure for the HV ammo and help cycle it.

I think this is the best though, when I use CCI Stingers and Aguila Super Max ammo it function flawlessly, 100% of the time. Those two types off ammo are really what you need CCI stingers are a little costly but you can get the Agulia Supermax ammo online for about half the cost, about $33 per 500.

Aguila Super Maximum Ammunition on Midwayusa

LInk to me shooting My M16 with 22LR I built, 50 round mag dump, CCI Stinger or Aguila Super Max ammo
Link Posted: 8/28/2010 11:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2010 11:17:53 AM EDT by Gardner]
Shit, I have 2 M16A1's with 10.5' and 14.5" barrels.

Both run 100% with stock Ceiner bolts. Spike's bolt, not so much....

Any ammo really. LL and DIAS will be a pain to get running but proper M16 lowers run like a watch in 22LR and Ceiner's bolts.

BTW, Spike's and Ceiner bolts weigh the same. Its the chamber which is different. (Spike's is a looser chamber and it may be the issue.)

Link Posted: 8/30/2010 12:42:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2010 12:44:00 PM EDT by jestertoo]
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 1:52:11 PM EDT
Spikes ran like crap for me. I worked with him for 6 months trying to get it to work with no luck. It was dedicated. AZHONKY
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 3:10:14 PM EDT
A wise man once said: ".22 kits run 100%, 90% of the time."
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 7:22:05 PM EDT
back pressure is your friend when running these in f/a. i have a 5.5 lother walthar bbl. running suppressed. it runs pretty efficiently with aguils sss subs along with fed. bulk paks. although my rifles are of the dedicated type( no adapter, just a collar w/ ded. bbl.) i`m pretty happy with mine and only had to do a little bit of tuning with lakeside springs and a good bit of polishing to the rails and feed ramp. i can sum it this way, the more the bolt slides on the rails with the least little friction, the better it will run. just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 10:56:42 AM EDT
I have a dedicated 14.5" upper with perm attached phantom.

Spikes kit w/weight and ball detent.

It does not run as is. I've tried at least 8 different types of ammo.

It runs 90% in semi. It runs 20% in FA.

I need to start clipping coils from the recoil spring. That should help with the ejection problems.
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 11:08:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JoseyWales25:
Will any of the .22 conversion kits run reliably through a short barrel full auto or would I need to get a dedicated upper like a Spikes?

if you have not already, buy the complete lakeside spring kit. it has a reduced hammer spring which helps ejection issues along with resetting the hammer a little easier.
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 2:12:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2010 2:14:33 PM EDT by ateamrob]
I have a Sendra RR M16 and I have been struggling for the last year or so to get the damn 22 kits to run reliably. Just when I think I have the magic touch..... it proves me wrong and runs like crap.

I started with an Atchisson kit and no matter what I did I had bolt bounce issues. I always use CCI mini mags so ammo is not the issue.

I finally got fed up with the atchssion/ciener kit and purchased a Spikes 22 kit and I have a 22 upper that is dedicated to the kit. I use the trip, weight and ball detent mod and still no luck even with CCI ammo and I even use the black dog mags. Sometimes it runs ok but lately it runs like crap and I have to eject a live round out of the chamber after a "click" ever 5th or 6th round. Basically its still bolt bounce big time with an occasional stove pipe. I have trimmed coils and done everything other that switching my hammer spring out of my RR which I refuse to do (not messing with my RR when it runs perfectly in 223).

I have basically given up after a year of tweaking, messing and tinkering with these stupid ass 22kits. They sound great and the idea is perfect but they run like crap for me so I gave up on them at this time and shoot only 223.

maybe down the road I will revisit them but not now. Too annoyed with them.

my 2 cents,

Link Posted: 8/31/2010 5:18:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 5:55:53 PM EDT
had a ceiner kit years ago that ran 98% on full auto but was very ammo sensitive. liked CI Stingers and Mini Mag + Vs (dont think they're longer made). sold it at the height of the AW ban era
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 6:15:51 PM EDT
We used to run the ever living snot out of my Ciener kit in my 11.5" upper, on osprey21s M16 lower.

Nowadays, it won't run that same upper anymore, on the same lower. Runs fine on a 16" upper though.

Go figure.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 5:50:36 AM EDT
I swear by CCI stingers and the even faster aguila super maximum ammo.

There are two common issues with the 22LR platform for the M16:
Bolt bounce and stove piping

The fix for bolt bounce will cause stove piping with under powered ammo. Because the ammo needs to be powerful enough to overcome the anti bounce weight or stiffer recoil spring.

The fix for stove piping may cause bolt bounce issues as you cut coils to reduce the stiffness of the recoil spring.

So it's (no pun intended) catch 22!!!!

However the ammo I use has overcome any anti bounce weight or stiffer spring and is powerful enough to effectively eject with no stove piping issues.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 10:41:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 10:48:27 AM EDT by limeytwo]
I run a completly stock ciener kit in an 14.5 socom barrel on a Colt factory M16 lower, modded the M16 hammer so it would not dip on sear release, runs 100% on CCI blazer hi velocity and CCI standard Velocity and Rem Target 22,

I also run a Ciener with a M1 sales collar adapter and either a spikes dedicated 4.5", 8" or 11.5'" barrel. they would not run well with the ciener anti bounce weight installed, as I was still getting bolt bounce and light FP hits , so I modded the bolt to accept the spikes anti bounce ball and detent and now they run 100% without the ciener weight

I run CCI Standards or Rem 22 target out of the 11.5" and 8" both suppressed and unsurpressed, and CCI blazers both suppressed and unsurpressed out of the 4.5" barrel, as the blazers are subsonic in a 4.5-5.5 inch barrel.

I run stock springs in both the ciener and M16 lowers. I could not be happier with Ciener kits or the CCI ammo, although it would be nice if you could get the ciener kit with the ball detent mod from Ciener.

I know this didn't answer your question exactly, but I also have a spikes bolt, but it has ejection issues so I haven't messed with it, I would not buy a complete spikes upper, I would buy one of their barrels though, and get my own stripped upper and a ciener kit with a collar adapter and trip (no weight) and do the ball detent mod, and get the spring and ball from spikes
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 10:55:44 AM EDT
My ciener kit runs great after I polished everythin up. It runs both the rdias and RR good. Now my short barreled Spkies 22lr kit sucks on full auto.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 2:48:53 PM EDT
Are the CMMG kits worth anything?
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 5:58:37 PM EDT
my spike f/a ran well in full on a suppressed sbr.
Picky on ammo though, I now stick to CCI mini mags or subsonic.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:54:49 PM EDT
I have several kits and they all run 100% in full auto......when in the right upper. Take the same kit, put it in different upper and you get problems. I can run 275 rnd drums threw mine and countless 30 rnd mags. It seems o be the upper that decides if it works or not.
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