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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 3/8/2006 8:01:55 PM EDT
I want to buy an M1A, but ammo costs are a major issue. I'm not looking to drive tacks with the thing, and i would like to shoot it a lot. is Wolf 308 good enough? What kind of accuracy do you get from it? Enough to learn to shoot with the M1A?

PLEASE spare me the "if you're going to buy a $1200 rifle you should afford ammo" bullshit, because that's not why I started this thread
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:58:35 PM EDT
Why not just shoot surplus. If it were me I wouldn't shoot any steel cased ammo in an M1A, but I would have no problem shooting good surplus like LC, Aussie, Portugese, or South African.
You probably could shoot the steel case ammo like Wolf with no problems, but since I haven't used any of their .308 I can't comment on what kind of accuracy to expect. I have tried their .223 though, and the accuracy of that was about "minute of beer can".
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:26:30 AM EDT
With 223 I dont see any difference in acuracy of that and the 55grn milspec stuff. However, the muzzle flash is a whole lot less from the wolf. I would also like to see some specs on how hard the extractor is on different things. My thought is that the extractor is still harder than that steel case.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 6:50:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 6:57:28 AM EDT by AZ-Dave]
I'm sure others will argue, but MY opinion is the steel case ammo should stay in the guns DESIGNED around it, which is com-bloc----AK's, SKS, etc. To my knowledge, no US battlerifle was ever designed with steel case ammo in mind. Chamber dimensions, extractor issues (type of steel/ hardness) and othe things come to mind. AK's and such are designed from the ground up for a constant diet of the stuff, and I don't think to many Russian designed weapons can be called "flawed" in design or function. If its so much cheaper and equal, why haven't we (US) made SC ammo?
Also, with all the excellent deals on milsurp like SA out there, what would the savings be? Battlepacks are running less than $30 each-----buy it cheap-stack it deep.

ETA: I know guys that save a whopping 20 cents a box shooting 223 wolf in there AR's---Federal 223 is 3.99 a box, wolf is like 3.79----then they bitch about how gummed up the lacquer on the case makes the chamber once it gets hot, and how filthy it is. So for 20 cents savings, they're supporting a Russian company instead of US, and don't get any brass out of it (although they don't care about that)
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:29:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-Dave:
ETA: I know guys that save a whopping 20 cents a box shooting 223 wolf in there AR's---Federal 223 is 3.99 a box, wolf is like 3.79----then they bitch about how gummed up the lacquer on the case makes the chamber once it gets hot, and how filthy it is. So for 20 cents savings, they're supporting a Russian company instead of US, and don't get any brass out of it (although they don't care about that)



My Wolf .223 is $2.50/box, and the laquer is a thing of the past. I dont reload, so once it goes bang, i really don't care about it after it ejects.

as for the .308, the wolf i see is ~$4/box, and the cheapest other I see is around $6/box and on up. the cost savings are not negligible, especially when I am scratching my pennies up to afford the M1A in the first place.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:46:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2006 7:47:48 AM EDT by AZ-Dave]
well, you asked for opinions----i'm giving my observations---wolf is obviously cheaper where your at---Hell, wolf 7.62x39 is 4.19 a box here now---if the lacquer thing is in the past, the store is still selling old production I guess
If a battlepack is $30, and there's 140 rounds in it, how substantial is the savings??

it appears you've answered your own questions then--buy wolf
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 8:22:46 AM EDT
One gentleman commented " why havent we made SC ammo"...
Well actually we have.... the .30 carbine, 45 ACP and 30-06 all during WWII had millions of rounds of SC ammo put through them... with brass, copper and other materials in such short supply... the military turned to steel to feed these bad boys....
Did these rounds have issues? Yes if the ammo got wet in anyway.... even laquer case wolf starts to show rust if wet and left on a counter for a day or so... But for us.... if your just gonna go shoot for a day...and it gets wet.... who cares... you are gonna shoot it in a few hrs or less anyway.
The steel that is used to make SC ammo is very soft compared to the steel in a receiver or barrel. It is more maliable so it acts like brass on the feed.
Will the US use steel in the future? The answer is yes.... even for our most advanced weapons.... the XM25 and new 25mm crew served weapons all use a steel case in the ammo.... the photos I have seen in SAR show green laquer...like an over size round of old style wolf :)
So would I shoot it in my new SOCOM? Yes. Would I prefer to shoot surplus ammo...yes... you can get surplus cheaper anyway... 1060 rounds of Sellier and Bellot is going for 137.00 right now.... 1260 rd of SA for 199.00
With surplus stuff starting to dry up... I plan on shooting the wolf 308 first and saving the surplus for training classes and SHTF....
Yes, I have seen my friends AR shoot about 2-3K rounds of 223 wolf without a problem and then 2 weeks ago the extractor just gave out.... the the money he saved on ammo could pay for 30 extractors....
There is an article on the .30 carbine in SAR that talks about the rifle being designed with SC in mind...
Hope this helps.
I have learned alot on this forum... I hope this didnt waste anyones time.
Anthony

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:23:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

as for the .308, the wolf i see is ~$4/box, and the cheapest other I see is around $6/box and on up. the cost savings are not negligible, especially when I am scratching my pennies up to afford the M1A in the first place.



you need to buy surplus. Its MUCH cheaper that way. South African runs about $155ish here for 980 rounds. If you to buy 980 rounds of wolf at $4/box you're looking at $196 before tax. I don't know what your sales tax rate is, but here its 6.75% which would result in a total sale price of $209.23. Thats $50 more than South African and on par with the cost of portugese ammo which is very good. For that matter you can look to the Sportsmans Guide who has XM80 for around $200 (but the shipping will run ya about $40 and if the shipping is only $40 you're getting excellent ammo for only $30 more than wolf)

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:25:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By actionpur:

Well actually we have.... the .30 carbine, 45 ACP and 30-06 all during WWII had millions of rounds of SC ammo put through them...




I am aware of .45 steel case, however what is your source on .30 carbine steel case and .30-06 steel case?

Link Posted: 3/9/2006 9:50:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By AZ-Dave:
ETA: I know guys that save a whopping 20 cents a box shooting 223 wolf in there AR's---Federal 223 is 3.99 a box, wolf is like 3.79----then they bitch about how gummed up the lacquer on the case makes the chamber once it gets hot, and how filthy it is. So for 20 cents savings, they're supporting a Russian company instead of US, and don't get any brass out of it (although they don't care about that)



My Wolf .223 is $2.50/box, and the laquer is a thing of the past. I dont reload, so once it goes bang, i really don't care about it after it ejects.

as for the .308, the wolf i see is ~$4/box, and the cheapest other I see is around $6/box and on up. the cost savings are not negligible, especially when I am scratching my pennies up to afford the M1A in the first place.

wolf .308 breaks down to 20 cents a round, you can go and get a south african battle pack (140 rounds, brass cased, non-reloadable NATO spec) for $30 at your local gun store, breaking down to .21 cents a round. A penny a round is negligible, especially if the durability and reliability of the gun is in question. As far as .308 is concerned, you can't go wrong with South African. I've fired well over 2000 rounds of it and never had a single misfire or dud with it, it's the only surplus I'll use; cheap, accurate, and reliable.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:15:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lithgow303:

Originally Posted By actionpur:

Well actually we have.... the .30 carbine, 45 ACP and 30-06 all during WWII had millions of rounds of SC ammo put through them...




I am aware of .45 steel case, however what is your source on .30 carbine steel case and .30-06 steel case?




+1---I am also well aware of 45 steel casings, in fact I have a few rounds somewhere, but have never heard of the US using ANY steel rifle casing.

you say they are DESIGNING a .30 carbine with STEEL CASINGS in mind----doesn't that imply that there ARE design differences when it comes to SC? Are M14's/M1A's designed with SC in mind?

In my opinion, saving enough money to buy 30 extractors by shooting wolf wouldn't be much consolation if my extractor went south at a "bad time"----BECAUSE I had been shooting wolf and saving a few pennies a round.
just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 1:06:06 PM EDT
:) I will clarify...
In WWII a large amount of ammo was made for the .30 carbine, 45 ACP, and 30-06 M1 Grands.... Sources are: SAR the issue before last they had some great info and pics on this SC ammo. Also the 1976 Janes Small Arms book...you know the 20 lb books Janes comes out with.... I asked some older gentleman about the ammo at a gun show a week ago and ask them about the guns and ammo.... etc.... They said that issues arose in the Pacific theater with corrosion with ammo that was stored for any period of time... even in ammo cans.... I used to never see M1 Carbines... now I see 30-50 at each show... and wow have they gone up in price.
Since the M1A is the final evolution of the M1 Grand I would assume that it would be fine... but then again... 308 wasnt invented until after WWII :)

The new 25mm rounds for the XM25 and crew served weapons have steel cases and there are lots of photos of the ammo and cases in the last issue of SAR.

I will get you page #'s tonight.... The green 25mm cases look amazing...
Surplus all the way! But steel case is fine for breaking in guns, blasting, etc... I agree American guns are made to higher tolerances.... but in someways that can also be a bad thing... Buy extra springs and parts for your guns... keep stuff clean and lubed....and its all good.:)
Anthony


Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:14:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 10:15:38 AM EDT by Firefoxammo]
Totaly old school, NO MORE LAQUER on Cartridges. WOLF is fine, I have shot 1000,s through my AR and About 100 today with My SA M1A---No Issues with the Wolf. It was the SA ammo I had trouble with today in the M1A


Originally Posted By AZ-Dave:
I'm sure others will argue, but MY opinion is the steel case ammo should stay in the guns DESIGNED around it, which is com-bloc----AK's, SKS, etc. To my knowledge, no US battlerifle was ever designed with steel case ammo in mind. Chamber dimensions, extractor issues (type of steel/ hardness) and othe things come to mind. AK's and such are designed from the ground up for a constant diet of the stuff, and I don't think to many Russian designed weapons can be called "flawed" in design or function. If its so much cheaper and equal, why haven't we (US) made SC ammo?
Also, with all the excellent deals on milsurp like SA out there, what would the savings be? Battlepacks are running less than $30 each-----buy it cheap-stack it deep.

ETA: I know guys that save a whopping 20 cents a box shooting 223 wolf in there AR's---Federal 223 is 3.99 a box, wolf is like 3.79----then they bitch about how gummed up the lacquer on the case makes the chamber once it gets hot, and how filthy it is. So for 20 cents savings, they're supporting a Russian company instead of US, and don't get any brass out of it (although they don't care about that)

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