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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 1/16/2002 12:43:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 12:49:16 PM EDT by AR15fan]
This relatively unknown 9mm load is the best thing since sliced bread if you carry a 9mm. .357sig ballistics out of a standard nine, and enhanced ability to defeat soft body armor.

Some links:

www.secondchance.com/press/standards.htm

store.yahoo.com/botach/winranra9.html
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:10:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:23:46 PM EDT
Second Chance recalled and replaced the series of vests that failed to protect against this round. Not really a factor anymore.

This is an excellent round in any case. I'm not sure I agree with the ".357 Sig" ballistics statement, but it's as close as any 9mm will get. Over on GlockTalk.com, some of the members have chrono'd this load out of a Glock 19 (4" bbl) at between 1250-1275 FPS. That is awesome for a 9mm, and not coincidently, the Ranger 127gr +P+ round currently resides in the magazines of my Glock 17.

The only other 9mm round that sounds and recoils like the Ranger 127gr +P+ in my experience is the Speer GoldDot 115gr +P+. Definitely my second choice behind the Ranger.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:50:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
As is the Federal +P+ load.



The Fed load uses a lighter bullet though...

Bman,
How fast are the real world (not published ).357Sig 125 Gn loads?
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 2:11:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
As is the Federal +P+ load. Of course, you should only shoot these loads from a +P+-rated gun, and know that shooting this ammo will accelerate the wear on any gun.

Glocks and USPs eat this stuff up. Do not use in an MP5 or a Marlin Camp 9, neither of which are rated for +P or +P+ ammo.

-Troy




The average shooter will never notice any accelerated wear. We have Berettas with 1000s of rounds and only 1 broken barrel block so far.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 2:36:59 PM EDT
AR15fan -

Yeah, I'm always skeptical of manufacturer published performance data too. Right in front of me I have an issue of Autopistols Magazine that was dedicated to Glocks. Here's some of the actual chrono data they give:


From a Glock 31 (4.49" bbl):

Hornady 125gr JHP - 1407 FPS avg. (549 FPE)
Remington 125gr JHP - 1392 FPS avg. (538 FPE)
Federal 125gr JHP - 1428 FPS avg. (566 FPE)
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP - 1420 FPS avg. (560 FPE)
Cor-Bon 115gr JHP - 1521 FPS avg. (591 FPE)

Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:35:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:52:16 PM EDT
We tested this round as well as many others over a period of 2 years .

We set the following priorities :
1. Reliabilty
2. Terminal Performance
3. Accuracy
4. Quality control
5. Human factor

We came up with the following acceptable performers performers:

1. Winchester Ranger 127 gr. +P+ HP
2. Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P HP
3. Federal Hydra-Shock 124 gr. +P+ HP
4. Remington Golden Saber 124 gr. +P HP

The Black Talon was not chosen because of PC , thus we chose the Gold Dot , which we are very happy with.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 9:24:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BMANSAR15:
Second Chance recalled and replaced the series of vests that failed to protect against this round. Not really a factor anymore.



True, but. While Second Chance recalled the vests (and it only amounted to about 60 total), many other body armor manufacturers of equivalent vests have not done so. They have stated, quite correctly, that their vests still meet NIJ standards.

We carried the Winchester 127 +P+ grain 9MM where I used to work. Before that we had carried the Federal 124 grain +P+ 9MM.

We had complaints from some offices about the Winchester. (Possibly bad lots, but we never really identified the problem.) We never had a single complaint about the Federal. I’d prefer the Federal.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 9:56:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 9:58:57 PM EDT by AR15fan]
I'm not sure how many grains in bullet weight constitutes a significant difference?

The difference between 115Gn and 124Gn 9mm ammo is only 9gns, but they perform radically different.

It's unknown if there is a simular difference in performance between 124Gn and 127Gn.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:06:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 8:09:55 AM EDT by BMANSAR15]
199 -

I agree, but have any other manufacturers fessed up to not being able to defeat that particular round? Even NIJ rated IIA vests are technically only rated to defeat 9mm 124gr at 1090 FPS, which talons or no talons, the Ranger 127gr +P+ easily exceeds.

That is the main reason why agencies' rules of thumb is to equip personnel with a vest capable of defeating their duty round.

AR15fan -

I think the 124gr versus 127gr performance variations has more to do with bullet construction than the 3gr weight difference (i.e. a GoldDot 124gr will penetrate deeper than a Ranger 127gr all else equal).
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
As is the Federal +P+ load. Of course, you should only shoot these loads from a +P+-rated gun, and know that shooting this ammo will accelerate the wear on any gun.

Glocks and USPs eat this stuff up. Do not use in an MP5 or a Marlin Camp 9, neither of which are rated for +P or +P+ ammo.

-Troy



---> The Marlin camp nine isn't rated for +P+?
I don't think +P+ is a SAMMI standard....or has that changed? What is the PSI that SAMMI has put on +P+ loads? Inquiring minds want to know...
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:21:31 AM EDT
damn were can i order me some of this ammo ive been looking gor a good self defense round un 9mm
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:25:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 9:26:05 AM EDT by AR15fan]
The Win Ranger 127Gn +P+ is specifically labled "do not use in rifles". The primer/powder was picked with short handgun brls in mind, and in a longer carbine or rifle brl may be dangerously over pressure.

C-
You can order it using the 2nd link I provided.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 11:38:26 AM EDT
You can buy LE Win Ranger 127gr +P+ at Botach Tactical for $15/50, but I've heard that they're pretty awful to do business with.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 3:30:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 3:45:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Glocks and USPs eat this stuff up. Do not use in an MP5 or a Marlin Camp 9, neither of which are rated for +P or +P+ ammo.

-Troy



Glocks and USP's have no problems with +P, or more, along with most other big name brand pistols.

The Marlin Camp 9's will be TRASHED real quickly if you use +P ammo in them, someone destroyed a bunch locally with +P ammo.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 3:50:35 PM EDT
Out of my Glock 19
Speer GD 124gr +P 1310fps = 472 ft lb.

Rem GS 124gr 6.6gr Power Pistol, CCI500, R-P +P brass, COL 1.125 1290fps.

FWIW. Lee
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 4:09:42 PM EDT
Botach ran out of the Ranger line some time ago. They are now selling older white box stuff. The bullet has the talons but they are not coated.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:30:32 PM EDT
The Black coating was only a type of lubricant and Winchester has gone away from it for PC reasons.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BMANSAR15:
199 -

I agree, but have any other manufacturers fessed up to not being able to defeat that particular round? ...


No – they just state that their body armor is not described as defeating that round.

The argument is a bit academic since a .357 magnum or .357 Sig can shoot the same bullet faster, anyway.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 1:43:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:
The argument is a bit academic since a .357 magnum or .357 Sig can shoot the same bullet faster, anyway.



9mm and 357sig use a .355" bullet

.38spec and 357mag use a .357" bullet

I dont think you would get very good results with a 127Gn .355" bullet loaded in a 357 magnum.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 2:59:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By 199:
The argument is a bit academic since a .357 magnum or .357 Sig can shoot the same bullet faster, anyway.



9mm and 357sig use a .355" bullet

.38spec and 357mag use a .357" bullet

I dont think you would get very good results with a 127Gn .355" bullet loaded in a 357 magnum.


Touché

Almost identical then!
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