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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/3/2003 5:36:08 PM EDT
There is a local dealer that has a Winchester M1 that he claims is "unfired". Ya, I know, I don't believe it either. It is in very nice shape, but does have quite a few stock dings and marrings to be "unfired". It looks very clean inside, but I would say it has been fired.

He has had it forever trying to get way too much for it, in my opinion. He is now coming down and told me I could have it for 800. I think there is still some room, but not much. What do everyday Winchester M1's go for? Is 800 too much? Thanks,
guns
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 6:15:38 PM EDT
CMP is not currently offering WRA (WInchester) M1s in service grade. Even the rack grades are few and far between.

800 is not unreasonable.

Understand that WRA M1s were only made during WWII and most were rebuilt several times over and over and retain few original parts.

If this gun were all original and never fired, it would not be 800, but several times that.

Maybe it has not been fired since rebuild, which could include new barrel and refinish. If that were the case it would mean a nice barrel and potential accuracy.

Is it an all USGI M1? Make sure it is not a reweld. Check the drawing numbers on the receiver. Check the parts and see if they are USGI.

If this is a USGI M1, (does he have any CMP or DCM paperwork), it may not be a bad price, not great but not bad either.

If is is an all original 6 digit WRA M1 buy it and i'll triple your $$
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 7:00:38 PM EDT
Pretty sure it is not a reweld. I don't have a clue if it is all matching. I guess I didn't look that close. I never looked at it real seriously until tonight, and I only had about 5min before my wife caught me with it!

I'll have to go take a closer look. I know he bought it from another dealer. I can't believe that the other dealer didn't know it was worth more. This guy was originally asking 1500. I'll be he paid about 750 for it. My bet is that the numbers are not matching, but I'm gonna check. If they are matching is it worth the 800? more? thanks,
guns
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 5:28:29 AM EDT
Examine the rifle and lock the bolt to the rear. Look in the slot and read the data on the barrel. A WW2 Winchester barrel will almost always be undated and have the stylized WP proof mark on it. If it shows maker or a year date later than WW2 the rifle is a rebuild fer sure and not worth $800. Winchester produced some M1 barrels as late as 1967 or so.

Exception: If the serial number is in the range from 1,600,000 to 1,641,090 and the part number stamped on it (under the woodline) is D28291WIN-13 this is the in-spec "dash 13" receiver and is worth $800 even with the wrong barrel. Worth $800 to a collector, the rifle is nothing special, just rare.

Getting a good deal at a gun store is like getting a good deal at a whore house (or is that redundant?): Expect there to be something not mentioned that will turn up later.....

Winchester M1 Rifles, like most Winchester military rifles had lots of problems and were not made to spec until 1945. And only after threat of legal action by USG. Winchester M1917 rifles has the same problem in WW1. Both were eventually corrected, but don't equate Winchester with "quality" in USGI weapons.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 2:05:16 PM EDT
Actually CMP is currently listing Winchester SG on their website as being available: R001WRA M1 Garand, Winchester $575. Probably your best buy on a garand
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:25:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Smokey_Colt:
Actually CMP is currently listing Winchester SG on their website as being available: R001WRA M1 Garand, Winchester $575. Probably your best buy on a garand



They had 100 inspected and ready to go. Those were gone in 3 days. They are taking orders, but will add names on a waiting list. The waiting list will go to 18-24 months and then they will stop taking orders again.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:30:34 PM EDT
I paid around $775 after taxes for a winchester M1 at a gun show that is in really nice shape. Only 1 or 2 minor dings in the stock that aren't very noticable
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:44:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
Examine the rifle and lock the bolt to the rear. Look in the slot and read the data on the barrel. A WW2 Winchester barrel will almost always be undated and have the stylized WP proof mark on it. If it shows maker or a year date later than WW2 the rifle is a rebuild fer sure and not worth $800. Winchester produced some M1 barrels as late as 1967 or so.

Exception: If the serial number is in the range from 1,600,000 to 1,641,090 and the part number stamped on it (under the woodline) is D28291WIN-13 this is the in-spec "dash 13" receiver and is worth $800 even with the wrong barrel. Worth $800 to a collector, the rifle is nothing special, just rare.

Getting a good deal at a gun store is like getting a good deal at a whore house (or is that redundant?): Expect there to be something not mentioned that will turn up later.....

Winchester M1 Rifles, like most Winchester military rifles had lots of problems and were not made to spec until 1945. And only after threat of legal action by USG. Winchester M1917 rifles has the same problem in WW1. Both were eventually corrected, but don't equate Winchester with "quality" in USGI weapons.

-- Chuck



Chuck, Although the finish is rougher than SA or the post WWII HRA or IHC, WRA M1s are not inferior to SA. Winchester stopped production around June of 1945, so I guess they never made any working rifles for 5 years? It's all subjective and a lot of SA lovers think WRAs are inferior in some way. Most WRAs you'll encounter will have been rebuilt many times and will contain few if any WRA parts anyway.

Are there any WRA dated barrels? I have never seen any that were dated except the 1960 barrels.

Do you hate WRA M1 carbines also?
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 3:27:40 AM EDT
Winchester has strong tradition of producing substandard military rifles.

Winchester produced a 1940-spec M1 Rifle right into 1945 when the War Department threatened to not only stop paying for obsolete spec rifles, but to sue them for money already paid. The result was the very limited production "dash 13" version.

Winchester stopped producing proper speced rifles circa 1940 and didn't start again until 1945. There were many enhancements made to the M1 Rifle after 1940 and Winchester didn't apply any. Only the requirements to get lots of rifles in the hands of the troops allowed this to continue.

Same thing happened with the early M1917 Rifles produced by Winchester. The M1917 was, as we all know, the principal rifle of the Army during WW1. The first Winchester-produced M1917 rifle were so bad they were rejected by and forbidden to be in the war zone by the AEF. The reason was non-interchangeable parts. This was later corrected, just like the M1 Rifle was corrected.

I've no clue about their M1 Carbine production, but since this was never intended to be a serious infantry weapon it really doesn't matter. Winchester carbines will shed extractors with the best of 'em.

My M1 Rifle is Sprinfield (1942), my M1917 is Eddystone (1918), and my M1 Carbine is Inland (1943 I think). No Winchesters for me! OK, OK, my M1897 riot gun is a circa 1910 Winchester.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 4:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
Winchester has strong tradition of producing substandard military rifles.

Winchester produced a 1940-spec M1 Rifle right into 1945 when the War Department threatened to not only stop paying for obsolete spec rifles, but to sue them for money already paid. The result was the very limited production "dash 13" version.

Winchester stopped producing proper speced rifles circa 1940 and didn't start again until 1945. There were many enhancements made to the M1 Rifle after 1940 and Winchester didn't apply any. Only the requirements to get lots of rifles in the hands of the troops allowed this to continue.

Same thing happened with the early M1917 Rifles produced by Winchester. The M1917 was, as we all know, the principal rifle of the Army during WW1. The first Winchester-produced M1917 rifle were so bad they were rejected by and forbidden to be in the war zone by the AEF. The reason was non-interchangeable parts. This was later corrected, just like the M1 Rifle was corrected.

I've no clue about their M1 Carbine production, but since this was never intended to be a serious infantry weapon it really doesn't matter. Winchester carbines will shed extractors with the best of 'em.

My M1 Rifle is Sprinfield (1942), my M1917 is Eddystone (1918), and my M1 Carbine is Inland (1943 I think). No Winchesters for me! OK, OK, my M1897 riot gun is a circa 1910 Winchester.

-- Chuck



Chuck Winchester didn't even start M1 production until 1941, even those were the education order series. Not until mid 1942 did actual WRA production really kick off.

The Win-13s are also the most non-spec of all the WRAs, all sorts of revisions of parts were used as WRA was trying to use up all the remaining inventory.

So what are the "substandard" problems with the WRA M1s? Let's hear some facts. The only thing is the rough finish compared to SA.

SA and WRA both had minor revisions along the way. Were these serious problems? No. They were improvements.

So you are concerned that WRA didn't immediately incorporate the revisions like SA did. SA is a goverment armory, WRA is a private arms maker. SA could change immediately with a memo, WRA needed new contracts, price increases etc. WRA did include most of the revisions that SA ordered, they took longer with WRA. Unless you feel the milled WRA trigger guard that never got upgraded to the SA stamped version to be that big of deal.

WRA rough finish and not as polished compared to SA? You bet. But substandard? Ok, maybe in YOUR opinion.
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