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Posted: 11/1/2002 5:52:03 PM EDT
[#1]
OK, I'll bite......
Remington 700 rifles have one of the biggest aftermarkets of any rifle. You also likely have more 700 specialists than you will have Win 70 specialists you there is likely more knowledge to draw from. It also has a "battle"-proven record as it's action is the basis for the M40 sniping systems. Ed |
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Posted: 11/1/2002 7:01:37 PM EDT
[#2]
I've seen 3-position Model 70 style safeties applied to the Remington 700.
I'm wondering about the other features such as the bolt, bedding, etc. What makes one better than the other? |
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Posted: 11/1/2002 7:20:33 PM EDT
[#3]
I really don't think one is better than the other. Yeah, people say "...but the Remmy is the basis of the USMC sniper rifle...." Well, so was the Winchester. When I took my PSS's up to Hart to have them work on 'em I asked about what action to use for a custom gun. Their reaction was "either are fine". Really helpful. Apparently, the 70 action is the preferred action for highpower (said Wally Hart). Other than that I think either would be great. But after talking to 'Lito (many times on different topics...also see the thread about PSS or LTR, I forwarded his post) I think I would lean towards the Stealth.
later, rich |
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Posted: 11/1/2002 10:20:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Stealth Pro:
They are a few $ cheaper than a Remmy Stealth Con: Good luck finding one. I have a Remmy as a result, I am very happy. I have heard it is a "do you like Ford or Chevy?" kinda deal. YMMV |
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Posted: 11/1/2002 10:53:21 PM EDT
[#5]
What are the differences in a Winchester Stealth and an FN SPR? Dont they both use the same action? I know the SPR uses an M240 barrel but other than that are they the same?
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Posted: 11/2/2002 6:19:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Remington makes an ENTIRE RANGE OF PRECISION RIFLES. VS, Sendero, PSS, LTR, 40X, M24...
Winchester makes ONE token precision rifle in their entire product line. They don't make many of them. If the demand was there Winchester would make MORE. It's a business remember. Since there isn't a large demand, Winchester can get some quantity of product visibility by restraining the supply to create the false impression of great demand. That's why when you go to Winchester's website you'll see the "Rifle Locator" isn't present on ANY of the .308 rifles. Remington has a Custom Shop. That custom shop builds M24, 40X, LTR and PSS rifles along with custom accuracy modifications. Winchester's Custom Shop adds gold filigree to lever-action 1894's and engraving to hunting rifles. THAT'S ALL they do. No precision rifle builds and no accuracy improvements. The aftermarket for parts for the Remington is many times larger than for the Winchester. Maybe that's why riflesmiths like Winchesters... more custom work for them... less things the average owner can do for himself. The cachet of unavailability intrigues some people who care about owning "the only one on the block". Intentional unavailability reeks of marketing to geeks. Maybe it's a Ford vs. Chevy thing but remember some people bought Betamaxes too. |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 7:34:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Oh God no......not again.....why don't we just beat ourselves on 'Glock vs. Sig' for a few hours...
I'll just parrot 'lito from SniperCountry on the 'For Newbies and Old Salts' page:
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Posted: 11/2/2002 8:00:58 AM EDT
[#8]
My opinion of SC has declined recently. While there are a few solid contributors at SC the general level of discourse there has changed over the past couple years. A truly geek site and a more humorless group would be difficult to imagine. I no longer respect the information there as I once did. |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:07:06 AM EDT
[#9]
One of the things I love about this place....you can even make a running gag of mods locking posts! I used to lurk there quite often about 1-2 years ago, but I stopped mostly for the same reason. Hell, I dropped from posting on HKPro completely, and most from TFL for similar reasons. But as with them, I still look to SC every so often for info, but I watch out for a few certain posters who know their stuff. Pablito tends to be one of them. Of course, especially in an issue like this, one needs to take into account use issues. Most of us (myself included) probably will not have the kinds of uses for equipment that those guys will, so that will certainly color recommendations. On the whole, when I was researching, I leaned towards the M70, in part due to QC issues. Now, this could simply be like the old Glock kB issue (when you produce so much more of an item, you're bound to get more problems). But when taken from a somewhat newb perspective, I'd look to what has the best chance of working OOB without problems. Of course, that's assuming one can FIND the M70 (sending out the cash for mine this week!). I think it all boils down to a six of one/half dozen of the other deal. Both can drive tacks, and are great platforms for mods. I guarantee by this time next year I'll probably own one of each... |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:42:27 AM EDT
[#10]
Hard-case I'm in pretty much complete agreement with you. I still visit SC but mostly because after a while you know who to listen for. There's some real bandwidth wasters with more attitude than aptitude.
Here's what I do... For hunting I use exclusively Winchester M70 control-round feed rifles. I do this because Miz Arock and I hunt some dangerous game. Animals that can kill you. For that I demand rifles that will function with absolute reliability whether I'm shooting in a hide, shooting at extreme angles or running my ass off to E&E something trying to run me over or eat me. I have a brace of M70's specifically for this reason. THEY WILL NOT FAIL UNDER ADVERSE CONDITIONS. I've been treed by lions, chased by buffalo and had to extricate Miz Arock from leopards and I won't accept anything less than absolute reliability. Winchester gives me that. On the other hand for precision rifles my choice is Remington M700. Remington has more experience with precision rifles than any other American manufacturer. All it takes is a look at the product offerings and services to understand that. M700's are push-feed rifles and they function fine for the less-demanding shooting in a tactical setting. The Winchester M70 Stealth is a push-feed rifle as well. There's more aftermarket parts and services available for the M700 and that means I can do more of my own work. I like that. Winchester's M70 Stealth is a nice rifle but I don't think it has any inherent design or manufacturing advantages over a Remington. The Winchester certainly has advantages if you're a gunsmith or purveyor of parts since you'll get to do more work and have less competition. I personally go with proven field experience and choose Remington. Like you said there's not much difference between the two but those are my reasons and choices. |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 10:15:01 AM EDT
[#11]
I own a Stealth and love it. The guy who built our state national guard systems once said "If you melt all the Remingtons in the world to make one Winchester, you have made the world a better place." I have several shooting partners that swear by The model 700. Alot of this is due in part to the fact that the military uses them. I also use a model 70 in 30.06 to hunt with. Its the only bolt gun for me. Of course I was also brought up to love Chevy's, Republicans, and Baptists. Its kind of your own decision.
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Posted: 11/2/2002 11:10:29 AM EDT
[#12]
Let's not forget "White Feather"...that is, the most successfuly sniper in history, Gunny Sgt. Carlos Hathcock.
He used a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06. Yes there were other rifles, but this was his most common rifle based on books I've read about him. As mentioned by Arock, it all depends on your purpose. Let's face it, 99.9% of the people on this board have needed nor will never need a tactical rifle for hiding in the bush days on end to pop someone. Reliability is of utmost importance, accuracy a close second. Most people think Winchesters are a bit more rugged, and that Remingtons are a bit more accurate. Get on with life... |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 1:27:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Oh God no......not again.....why don't we just beat ourselves on 'Glock vs. Sig' for a few hours... It's going to soon be Glock and Springfield XD's Trust me XD-40 fine little gun in 40cal and the 9mm is also very nice to shoot. By the way I do own a Glock 19c. |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 3:05:21 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm claiming ignorance right now..... Was the Winchester an "issued" weapon, a custom weapon requested by Hatchcock and made thru an armory of the US Military, or a personal weapon brought in country? Further, does the number of kills make the sniper? Or was it simply the "right place, right time" that made him? Back on topic: From the bench I like being able to drop a round on to the follower of my 700P and being able to chamber the round. Not sure you can do that in a Win 70. Would also see this as an asset in a sniping situation as I would not have to work the action thru a complete cycle from magazine to chamber. Just my preference, but I also considered the 70 Stealth and 70 Coyote, as well as a custom Stealth with a custom contour barrle similar to the M40A1...... Again, my preference..... Ed |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 3:21:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Somewhere deep in the neurons is the thought that Gunny Hathcock used a Winchester on his first tour and a Remington on at least his last tour...
Also not to disparage anything Hathcock achieved but I believe Waldrum had more confirmed kills in VN. And then there is the record in War2 from the Finn, Russian and German sniper corps. |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:07:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Arock: I think you're right about Hathcock using the M70 on his first tour and the 700 on the second. .30-06 and .308, respectively. I copied something Hathcock said in an interview: --------------------------------------------- The statement was from the Petersen's Guns&Ammo Rifle Shooter 1997 special issue with the red cover and the words LONG RANGE in yellow at the top left. Page 42 article; CARLOS HATHCOCK: The White Feather Sniper. Page 45: 'Carlos believes the currently issued Marine Carps sniper rifle, the M40A1 built around the Remington Model 700 actio, is superior to any other military sniper rifle in use anywhere in the world. He dismisses the controversy about "controlled versus uncontrolled" feeding and other arguments about the merits of a particular bolt action over another. "The Model 700 is a mature design and an uncomplicated action. Military armoreres have learned a vairety of ways to enhance the accuracy of the Model 700, and they have much more experience wth the Model 700 than any other type of action." Carlos also stated that he likes the Unertl scopes, but, 'he believes Leupold now makes the best copes for military and police sniper rifles.' -------------------------------------------- If Gunny likes it, I likes it!  |
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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:46:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Liked... 
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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:57:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Yeah, Brou, I know. In 1989, my little brother succumbed to MS at 30 years old, on top of Diabetes and kidney failure...a guy can only take so much. Gunny fought his MS like the Soldier he was. I like to think the spirit of both of them lives on. |
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Posted: 11/3/2002 10:40:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Another interesting post by 'Lito on SC about a very similar topic....excerpts.....
Joe, >" I thought all my M70's were push feed. None of 'em have the Mauser claw extractor. Confused for sure."< If none of them have a Mauser claw, then they are push feed, there is no third option. >"Is the Rem. easier to work on or stronger or just plain more available?"< None of the above...up 'til about 8 years ago, the Rem was a LOT cheaper. The military has always used the Winchester haeavy target and heavy varmint (slimmer stock) rifles as sniper rifles from WWII up through Vietnam. Then Winchester went through the "Dark Years" (post '64 production), and Remington had just introduced their heavy varmint rifle (the HBV, now called the VS) that was half the price of the Winchester. The military started buying the Remingtons for the Vietnam conflict, and that is how the Rem got the current preference. The Win action is better, larger, doesn't have the problems of rounds sticking in the left lug groove, and a lot of other advantages. 'Lito |
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Posted: 11/3/2002 5:57:11 PM EDT
[#20]
About push-feed and controlled-round feed... Remington makes ONLY push-feed rifles. Winchester makes BOTH push and controlled-round feed rifles. Winchester changed the M70 from controlled-round feed to push feed as one of their cost-saving (read cheaper) changes in 1964. Winchester started offering controlled-round feed again on SOME of its M70 rifles (the Classic series) in the mid-1990's. Today Winchester offers BOTH push and controlled-round feed in different models of the M70. The action of the Winchester Stealth uses the same style push-feed action as Remington's M700.
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Posted: 11/3/2002 6:38:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Now, if Remington made a 'controlled round feed' action, EVERYBODY would be happy!
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Posted: 11/4/2002 1:22:06 AM EDT
[#22]
Probably not. For ultimate precision, however SMALL and that difference is absolutely TINY, there is some benefit to accuracy to be had by totally encasing the base of the cartridge in one piece of metal. The bolt of both Remington AND Winchester push-feed rifles do that. The cartridge head is completely encircled by the face of the bolt. The bolt of a controlled-round feed rifle does not, due to the cutout for the claw extractor. That is why for improved accuracy Winchester uses a less expensive push-feed action for the Stealth instead of a more expensive controlled-round feed. Major General Julian Hatcher, Commander of the US Army Aberdeen Ordnance Proving Ground was a proponent of the Remington action for it's inherent accuracy and safety. I'm sure he would have said the same thing about the Winchester push-feed action. |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 5:52:41 AM EDT
[#23]
The USMC during Nam issued Win M70's w/ Redfield scopes to its snipers. The Army issued the accurized M14 which was known as the M21. The Army's latest, the M24, has a 700 action, Douglas barrel, and Timney trigger. It's not an OOB Remington, to speak of.
I shoot a 700PSS and a 700 VS and enjoy both. Accurate rifles. I have yet to shoot my Win M70 in .300 WSM. Should be an experience. Perhaps with the cold and snow, I'll find time to get the .300 loaded up. |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:04:33 AM EDT
[#24]
It's not, but it's not like you can't buy the same barrel, same trigger and same stock to "convert" it to essentially an M24 in street clothes, rather than BDU's.  Ed |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:22:45 AM EDT
[#25]
M24 doesn't use a Douglas barrel. It used to use (I say used to becasuse the mil changes contracts quite often, AFAIK they still use Rock barrels) a Rock 5R 1:11.25" twist barrel. I don't know if Mike is still making 'em for the Army, but that is the rifling etc. they use.
Later, Rich |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:38:21 AM EDT
[#26]
Which means that if they are using a 5R barrel, you can buy one right from Remington that way. When I got my PSS (ignorant to the 5R at that time) I could have ordered the 5R barrel for $80 more right from Remington. I didn't want silver barrel on my "black rifle" so I passed. I kick myself everyday for that slip up.
Ed |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 12:03:03 PM EDT
[#27]
OK someone tell me how I can order a 5R barreled rifle from Remington for $80 more than a regular PSS.
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Posted: 11/4/2002 4:27:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Where are you located in Texas?? Go to your dealer that sells PSS and LTR's and have them check the distributors for shelf stock first. Not all dealers choose to sell PSS and LTR rifles to everyone. That's Bravo Sierra but that's their choice. Find one that does and spend your money there. There area couple of dealers on the East Coast that folks have mentioned that always have some stock of these rifles. If you have to ORDER a 5R barrel rifle your local dealer can do it from Remington. Don't know the availability these days but I'd plan on at least a 6 month wait.
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Posted: 11/4/2002 5:23:35 PM EDT
[#29]
DEVL check Potomac Arms in Alexandria VA, they were getting 12 "available" to them at the time I picked up my PSS. Not sure if they have them still, but I kick myself often for missing it.
Just to be sure, you weren't attempting to call bullsit were you? Didn't figure you to be like that. Also my dealer (Potomac) was selling them for $809 for a regular PSS because of scarcity, and $889 for the 5R PSS. Thanks, Ed |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 5:47:35 PM EDT
[#30]
SHIVAN,
Be careful, The "milspec" 5R Remmy 700's ARE NOT the same thing as the M24 5R barrels. While the Rem 5R's are nice, I have friends that have 'em and they don't shoot any better than a regular PSS. The Remmy 5R is still a Rem barrel (that is to say a rough $30 factory barrel...but they work). The M24 uses a Mike Rock barrel and they are asembled outside of the Remington factory. Also, if you look at the M24, it's a different (much heavier) barrel contour. As far as contour and quality of barrels goes, the Stealth is probabaly closer to the M24 than the "milspec" 5R. Either way, you'll be happy with a Stealth or a PSS. Hope this helps, Rich |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:32:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Rich:
I had heard that they weren't the same, but I still like the idea of having something even more limited in number than your "run-of-the-mill" PSS. Also if they shot much better they would be 1/4MOA guns. At least everybody I've seen with the PSS is getting sub MOA in the 3/4 to 1/2 MOA range at 100. As there is not much else in distance available around here. Ed |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:39:38 PM EDT
[#32]
The FN "Special Police Rifle" uses a Winchester pre-64/"classic" controlled-feed action, and despite that and having a chrome-lined barrel, shoots exceptionally well, easily comparable to a PSS or Stealth. If I didn't already own a PSS, I'd certainly own one. -Troy |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 6:48:20 PM EDT
[#33]
SHIVAN,
I'm Glad you already know that. Some people think it's the same barrel as the M24 and I just wanted to make sure you weren't one of em  . You're right about the "limited run" thing being more desireable though. If I didn't already have two (in addition to recently getting bitten by the CMP Garand bug) I would've bought one too.Later, Rich |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 7:30:07 PM EDT
[#34]
I actually didn;t know that it wasn't exactly the same but then again, I never trust that the public gets exact spec on certain items the military gets. Sometimes we do, most times there is something slightly different. I had looked at getting a Mike Rock barrel and found him to no longer be making barrels for the public.
Saw a 40x with a 5R barrel and found out it was close to what was on the M24, but not exact, at that point I figured there was a difference. Never knew for sure, but it was one of those things I didn't need to research further, otherwise I'd end up with a Mike Rock barrel on my $800 PSS........oh the pain. Ed |
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Posted: 11/4/2002 8:15:08 PM EDT
[#35]
As far as I know, Mike is back in business and selling barrels to the public. George Gardner of GA precision is one of the "distuributors" and uses them on his "Rock" rifle. Just spend the money on ammo right now and practice, when you've shot out the barrel, you'll be ready to put on ( and fully appreciate)a Rock barrel.
Later, Rich |
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Posted: 11/5/2002 3:56:31 AM EDT
[#36]
No I was not calling BS on you I have been considering getting a FN SPR but being able to get all the accessories I want on a 700 action had held me back. When you said I could get a 5R barrel on a PSS I had decided on just going with the PSS 5R but now everyone is saying its not a "real" Mike Rock 5R just the 5R rifling on a regular Remington barrel. So now I am still wondering what to do. I wish Accuracy International mad a stock for the Model 70 action
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Posted: 11/5/2002 5:30:22 AM EDT
[#37]
DevL:
Supposedly the guy at my shop had held one and said the contour of the barrel was larger than the PSS, and that the gun looked very nice, and it likely shoots a tad better than a stock PSS, and it would be rare. It's would be a win-win.... The FN SPR is a very nice gun, I couldn't find one at the time. I think I was looking at the time they switched over to the "new" model and stopped shipping the "old" model. I liked the thought of the detachable mag. Either way you will be getting a nice rifle in either the PSS, PSS 5R, or FN SPR. |
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Posted: 11/5/2002 6:29:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Shivan and Devl,
Remember, Always be careful of what a dealer tells you about a rifle, remember they're trying to make a sale. (caveat emptor). Your best bet for feedback are personal experience (find friends or make friends at the range with guys who have 'em), and forums such as AR15.com and snipercountry.com. And $809 is waaay too much for a PSS. Tony Lawson at Town Police Supply in VA has PSS's for $649. I bought both of mine from him via internet FFL transfers. Great guy to do business with. Look for his ad on the snipercountry.com Emporium. Later, Rich |
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Posted: 11/5/2002 7:26:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Rich:
Yep, I know it is......but honestly at the time. I had several FFL's tracking them down. Nobody had them, that would ship them in. One person had them NEW, that was Potomac Arms. They know they get certain things and they check when they are scarce. I may have paid $809 for the rifle and two boxes of Fed Gold Match 168's. I know I walked out at $809. Whatever, I'm happy either way. Ed |
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Posted: 11/6/2002 6:17:30 AM EDT
[#40]
SHIVAN,
I have to apologize. I was under the impression that you were still shopping for one. I didn't know that you already had it (must've mis-read your post). Which makes my post seem like "I got my PSS cheaper than yours Naa Na Naa Na Naaaa Naaaaaaa.....  " Which is not what I meant. Anyway, if you like yours nearly as much as I love mine, that's all that matters.Later, Rich |
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Posted: 11/6/2002 6:54:39 AM EDT
[#41]
I have seen literally hundreds of rifles used over the years in the police sniper/observer schools I teach at. The Remington is the overwhelming choice, which doesn't necessarily have to do with any notions of "superiority".
Lately, the Rem 700 PSS and LTR are the big favorites with "new" marksman. They are mostly sub-MOA accurate, but I have seen a turkey or two that would not stay under 2 MOA. One of those I know was returned to Remington and they replaced it with a complete new rifle that did shoot acceptably. On the rare event that a Winchester shows up, it is invariably very accurate and consistent. Some are custom built rifles, some are factory jobs. For what it is worth, I have owned the PSS, LTR and Steyr SSG and PII. After I purchased a Winchester M70 Heavy Varmint in .308 (discontinued stainless barrel), I sold the rest. Factory stock, it is a 1/2-MOA rifle. I believe it is superior to the Remington. The barrel appears to be of exceptional quality, and fouling is very limited. They make far less of them than Remington does their super-mass produced PSS series, and unlike some of their hunting rifles, it appears that Winchester is making the Stealth right the first time. If you are going custom or semi-custom it doesn't matter what you start with. For factory stock, I prefer the current Winchester. |
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Posted: 11/8/2002 1:44:23 PM EDT
[#42]
My new PSS shoots .5 moa with factory-spec match loads (168 gr. Sierra/Hornady HPBT, 44 grs. Varget, Win Brass, Federal 210M primers and seated to 2.800).
Trigger adjusted down to a creep-free 2.5 lbs. (it might go lower but that is low enough for me). Paid $659.00 for it from Town Police Supply in Virginia. I dealt with Missy there and she's real nice and thorough. Tony is another one there to deal with. LTR's are a little more but can't remember ($675 I think). Put a good base and rings on it and buy a 65 in/lb torque wrench and it will shoot better than you do all day long. I think it's rather academic comparing the Stealth to the PSS. Edited: I put the info re Town Police Supply in there because I had such a good experience with them that I hope others will patronize their shop. Out. |
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Posted: 11/8/2002 3:16:24 PM EDT
[#43]
I havent shot the Stealth but I have shot the PSS and the SPR. I liked them both. I ended up getting an AWESOME deal on a new SPR so I bought it. Get either and shoot it a lot.
SP |
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Posted: 11/9/2002 4:18:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Did you get an older SPR or the new SPR A1? Does it have the detatchable magazine or hinged floorplate? What kind of base/rings/scope? And most importantly what kind of groups are you getting out of it?
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Posted: 11/9/2002 5:32:36 AM EDT
[#45]
This is true of USRA/Browning's entire empire. Don't get me started on tracking down a left-handed Model 70.
That's not true. They also charge $2500 for a non-catalogued caliber in the Model 70. I've crunched the numbers, but can't figure out the whys and wherefors of that bit of logic.
Chuck Mawhinney, another Marine, had 103 confirmed and used a Model 700 Remington. |
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Posted: 11/9/2002 4:48:56 PM EDT
[#46]
The FN also comes in 300 WSM now. The WSM cartridges rock. |
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Posted: 11/9/2002 6:38:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Hmm... this thread has got me hankering for a Stealth now.. :)
My local dealer has one in .223, he want's $680 out the door (tax included) for it. I wonder :) Edited to add: Ok, went out and did it. Got him to go for $650 out the door.. :) A new proud owner of a Stealth. |
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Posted: 11/13/2002 12:17:18 PM EDT
[#48]
The older one with the HS Precesion stock
Detatchable Magazine
Badger base and 30mm medium height rings VariXIII 4.5-15x50 LR with mildot reticle
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. (.30"-.50" 3 shot groups at 100yds off of a bench. Always under .75" with 5 shot groups) sp |
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Posted: 11/15/2002 9:24:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Gunny's biggest contribution was his teaching. He did not expect anything from anyone that he couldn't do himself. His greatest achivement is that almost every Marine he trained, came home alive.
You don't hear much about Adelbert Waldron. There are reasons. |
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Posted: 11/15/2002 11:24:46 AM EDT
[#50]
One thing I would like to see cleared up, is it 700 Varmint Special or Varmint Synthetic?? I was told the latter.
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