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Posted: 2/28/2005 12:04:54 PM EST
Just a question that I would like answered truthfully. Why does everyone say the 870 only for a shotgun. I know the quality is good, that is not in question. I have looked through the threads of recent and everyone keeps saying the 870 is the only shotgun worth having.
Is this because of the infinite amount of accessories that are available?
I have owned the 870 in several configurations as well as several other shotguns. I just recently bought a Benelli Nova Combo. I like it alot. For the money and what it comes with made it a logical choice for me.
Just curious as to what you all think.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 12:10:23 PM EST
It is more expensive to go against the grain....

Link Posted: 2/28/2005 12:36:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2005 12:39:07 PM EST by corwin1968]
My reasoning was very simple.

I saw this picture of a Wilson Combat "Border Patrol" shotgun and liked the way it looked so I decided I must have one that looks just like it. It's based on the 870 so that's the only shotgun I considered.




Link Posted: 2/28/2005 2:04:39 PM EST
Fair enough and honest. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 2:50:48 PM EST
To me, the 870 has a smoother, more solid action than any other pump gun made - except maybe the Model 12 - but as smooth as it is, the Model 12 cannot compare to the 870 when it comes to versatility, and options... If you believe in market trends - the 870 is the best selling shotgun of ALL time - bar none...


- georgestrings
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 3:29:49 PM EST
I agree that it is one of the best selling of all times, but from everyone I ask why they chose this one, "all the accessories for it" is the most common thing I hear. I was just curious if my thoughts were correct.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 3:46:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2005 6:56:10 PM EST by Mike_Mills]
People are able to discuss the options because the shotgun itself is so rock solid reliable and performs so well, there's really nothing to say. It's so solid, everyone, and I do mean everyone, uses the 870. Spare parts are readily available but the good news is you'll likely never need them. It's almost axiomatic, if you're buying a shotgun it has to be an 870.

Then there are all those accesories that allow you to tailor the fit, sights and lights to your personal or mission requirements. :-)
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 4:01:36 PM EST
I agree with the "rock solid status" you gave it. I can spen hours talking about the same with atleast four others. The one thing that struck me as funny is that your post said the same thing everyone else does. EXTRAS, EXTRAS, EXTRAS.
Just stating the obvious.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 4:13:28 PM EST
The 870 is the only modern shotgun to have a near-60 year history of really abusive police and military use, and still have a well-documented history of being able to take it all and still keep working.

There's NOTHING WRONG with the Mossberg and Winchester guns, but the hard fact is, the Mossberg 500 and the Winchester 1300 just didn't stand up to this kind of heavy, abusive treatment.

Today, few law enforcement agencies will touch the Winchester, and in order to stay in the police market, Mossberg had to drastically redesign and beef up their gun into what is essentially a new gun, the Model 590.

Just about any brand of shotgun is quite OK for sporting use, but the true test of it comes when you put a few million guns into the hands of the police for 50 years, then check the failure rate.

The fact is, no other modern shotgun has as low a failure rate as the 870.

This is why more than 95% of all American law enforcement agencies use the Remington 870.
They tried the others, and came back to the Remington.

Law enforcement tries other brands for reasons of price. The other guns cost less.
They go back to the 870 for reasons of durability not price, since the 870 costs MORE than any other pump gun.

When 95% of people are using something BY CHOICE, you have to figure they KNOW something.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 4:15:38 PM EST
Thats what I am looking for, Thank you.
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 6:57:06 PM EST
I added that bit about accessories at the end as a bit of humor. I edited the post to put a smiley after it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 6:28:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 12:17:31 PM EST
Naive Question, but when you all who are in the know say "870", do this family include the "Express"?
Thanks
R/
Mike
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 1:00:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 1:27:11 PM EST
In addition to mike 103 and faris' ...errr...defariswheel's...excellent posts, let me add that I have seen hundreds of police shotguns over the years...Ithacas, Marlins, Winchesters, Mossbergs, Savages and 870's...and not any of them...with the argueable exception of the older, original Ithaca 37's...can begin to compare to the 870s after years of use and abuse. The Ithacas are much more difficult to train with, and the lack of a disconnect is not "cool" for a service gun...it is unsafe. But they are tough as whet leather and even better built than the 870s IMO...but they have other issues such as weak springs, as well.

I specifically include here the Winchester M97 and M12...both of which I have worked with as police shotguns...very nice old guns, but not as good, nor as robust, for service work as the 870...again, IMO only.

While I personally do not really like the Express Model 870, (especially the shit wood they use on them) I will have to say that they are head and shoulders above anything else out there except a Wingmaster or a Police Model.

And all this from someone who detests dealing with the Remington factory...or at least I did for most of the years I dealt with their shotguns.
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 3:20:30 PM EST
"Shit wood"??????

Sir you have no class.

Everyone knows the Express wood is fancy figured North American Pisswood.
Link Posted: 3/1/2005 11:47:27 PM EST
I recently owned Saiga-20K shotgun, now entirely replaced by 870. Still own a more luxurious Browning BPS and a compact s/s EAA Bounty Hunter-II. Had a choice to shoot a lot with different shotguns, including Mossberg 500, Mossberg 590, Winchester 1300, Benelli M1, Benelly M3, Saiga 12K.

I've bought my 870 Deergun second hand for $160 in 1999 (new 870s cost here over $500). Earlier the gun made its service in a security company, that’s why an exterior looked much worn, though the gun itself had not been fired. After six years of using gun in practical shooting, and investing over $500 in custom work, accessories, refinish, etc. I still prefer this wonderful piece.

So why 870 as the best "working horse"?
Reliable – yea!
Versatile – yea!
Nonexpensive – yea, but unfortunately not in Russia :(
Durable – yea, yea, yea!

In Russian there is a term used for guns' valuation = 'neubivaemy', i.e. ineradicable. This is 870!
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 3:33:25 AM EST
I don't see any mention of the Benelli Nova from anyone. Price is not an issue for the shotty as much is the issue of it being overpriced due to name-market push, or whatever. I have seen several guns pushed to the public to buy because it is "the one to have". I just wanted to get opinions on the 870.
I know it is a great shotgun and reliable and accessories out the wazoo, but is the popularity due to name and accessories?
This is just a curious semi-survey. After purchasing another shotgun this weekend (actually my wife bought it for me as a gift) I overheard someone at Bass Pro say , "man you should get the 870". After asking why, he just said he thought it was the one to have due to "so many accessories that you could almost make it look like a different rifle". Whatever that means.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 5:19:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2005 5:29:08 AM EST by Podgirin]
Concerning Nova, I was thinking about purchasing one but I found the following cons comparing to 870:

No extra stocks or forends can be installed. I know that Nova's stock is very ergonomical and good to shoot but the idea to have a shotgun with a stock that can not be replaced seems poor. Folding stock can not be installed either – not a problem for most shooters, but not for me who prefer concealable shotgun.

Polyamide receiver may be durable as hell, but call me a retrograde I still own rifles and shotguns with steel receivers only (except 10/22 – my only longgun with non-steel receiver).

When Nova appeared a few years ago, no magazine extensions were available in shops. I guess now it is easier to find Nova mag extension, but they are still quite rare.

The same problem with sidesaddles, Surefire "lighted" forends, tactical slings and so on.

Another issue is that Nova is quite a new gun, so finding a cheap second-hand deal – is unreal. So you are forced to purchase new gun only, with no chance to give a break to family budget.

Finally Nova is chambered in 12/89 (3.5"), but even 12/76 (3") are quite painful to shoot due to low weight of a gun. I know that 2¾" are much more used, than magnums. I know that Benelli brand-new wolfram inside-the-stock recoil buffer reduces recoil dramatically. But… I like my 8¾ pound 870 better.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 9:48:51 AM EST
The 870 is universal. If an intruder was breaking & entering your home, you grab your 870 home defense shotgun. You rack the action and cycle a round and whoever is behind that door... They will KNOW that SOUND... It's so distinctive that if I was an intruder, I'd flee for my life and find another profession...
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 10:04:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2005 10:05:20 AM EST by HardShell]

Originally Posted By Podgirin:
...

Polyamide receiver may be durable as hell, but call me a retrograde I still own rifles and shotguns with steel receivers only (except 10/22 – my only longgun with non-steel receiver).

...



You don't own any ARs?...



(ETA: Just saw the "RUS" under your name - you probably don't, eh? )
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 10:06:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 10:51:37 AM EST
I've got an 870, Mossberg 590, Mossberg 835 and a Browning BPS. the last two are my hunting guns. Of the lot I like the BPS the best because it's as smooth as the 870 and has the square mag feed hole with out the feed ramp being in the way. You can just lay a shell in there rather than have to push it past the feed ramp. the mossys are the same way. So with the BPS I have the smooth cycling of the 870 and the feed mechanism features of the Mossys in one package. Down side? Costs almost 3 times as much as an 870 but it is grassland cammo'd!

Bottom line is that the 870 isn't the best shotgun out there by a long shot but it is the best value out there by a long shot.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 2:49:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By jtw2:
I've got an 870, Mossberg 590, Mossberg 835 and a Browning BPS. the last two are my hunting guns. Of the lot I like the BPS the best because it's as smooth as the 870 and has the square mag feed hole with out the feed ramp being in the way. You can just lay a shell in there rather than have to push it past the feed ramp. the mossys are the same way. So with the BPS I have the smooth cycling of the 870 and the feed mechanism features of the Mossys in one package. Down side? Costs almost 3 times as much as an 870 but it is grassland cammo'd!

Bottom line is that the 870 isn't the best shotgun out there by a long shot but it is the best value out there by a long shot.



"Push it past the feed ramp"? Clarify yourself, please.

You can open the action on an 870 and throw the shell in any sort of way so long as the brass is to the rear, and it will feed flawlessly, no matter where the carrier is in relation to the chamber. You most certainly do NOT need to push it anywhere! The BPS is a pretty good gun, but not the equal of the 870!
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 3:05:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/2/2005 3:06:06 PM EST by jtw2]

Originally Posted By ikor:

Originally Posted By jtw2:
I've got an 870, Mossberg 590, Mossberg 835 and a Browning BPS. the last two are my hunting guns. Of the lot I like the BPS the best because it's as smooth as the 870 and has the square mag feed hole with out the feed ramp being in the way. You can just lay a shell in there rather than have to push it past the feed ramp. the mossys are the same way. So with the BPS I have the smooth cycling of the 870 and the feed mechanism features of the Mossys in one package. Down side? Costs almost 3 times as much as an 870 but it is grassland cammo'd!

Bottom line is that the 870 isn't the best shotgun out there by a long shot but it is the best value out there by a long shot.



"Push it past the feed ramp"? Clarify yourself, please.
With the action closed like you are toping off the magazine the feed arm that moves the shell from the magazine to the chamber is in the down position. You have to push the shell past it and on into the magazine.

You can open the action on an 870 and throw the shell in any sort of way so long as the brass is to the rear, and it will feed flawlessly, no matter where the carrier is in relation to the chamber. You most certainly do NOT need to push it anywhere! The BPS is a pretty good gun, but not the equal of the 870!



I'll assume you're kidding. Other wise you're just plain wrong.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:01:22 PM EST
I'm gonna post big.... just not yet....

Compare against the 870 express work ... right?
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:14:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:16:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike103:
Boy I wish we could all get together and shoot the shit out of these pumps and see the pro's and con's of each one in different types of shooting and put this to bed once and for all. MIKE.



I'm game. I pretty much have the big three covered with a BPS, 870 and a couple of Mossys. All we need is a Beneneli Nova and ..... what else?
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:21:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By mike103:
Boy I wish we could all get together and shoot the shit out of these pumps and see the pro's and con's of each one in different types of shooting and put this to bed once and for all. MIKE.



I'm game. I pretty much have the big three covered with a BPS, 870 and a couple of Mossys. All we need is a Beneneli Nova and ..... what else?



Winchester 1300, Ithaca 37 (same as the BPS ??)
I'd like to see how well the ChiCom 870 & Ithaca clones stand up also.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 6:31:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By jtw2:

Originally Posted By mike103:
Boy I wish we could all get together and shoot the shit out of these pumps and see the pro's and con's of each one in different types of shooting and put this to bed once and for all. MIKE.



I'm game. I pretty much have the big three covered with a BPS, 870 and a couple of Mossys. All we need is a Beneneli Nova and ..... what else?



Winchester 1300, Ithaca 37 (same as the BPS ??)
I'd like to see how well the ChiCom 870 & Ithaca clones stand up also.



oh yeah that's one thing I really like about the Ithaca as well as the BPS is the downward ejecting. Nice to your mates in the goose blind not bouncing shell hulls off of their heads!
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 8:58:58 PM EST
I suspect we'd need to bring our lunches.

There are a number of 870 owners around with between 250,000 to 500,000 rounds through 870's.

Where the real "test" comes in is when you put several thousand guns into the hands of a bunch of street cops, and turn them loose.
If there IS a weakness, they'll find it for you.

I had a friend who was the department armorer for a big city police department.
He joked that his spare parts inventory for the department 870's "Could fit into a shoe box, with enough room left over for a burger and fries".

He said that most of his 870 work was replacing broken sights, splintered and broken stocks and hand guards, bent and squashed barrels, and removing rust.

Since owners have to pay for their own guns, we tend to NOT abuse them, so they last a LOT longer without problems.
That's why most any decent quality pump gun will last for a life time.
That's also why most of these discussions about what's the best shotgun are moot.
Link Posted: 3/2/2005 9:32:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
I suspect we'd need to bring our lunches.

There are a number of 870 owners around with between 250,000 to 500,000 rounds through 870's.

Where the real "test" comes in is when you put several thousand guns into the hands of a bunch of street cops, and turn them loose.
If there IS a weakness, they'll find it for you.

I had a friend who was the department armorer for a big city police department.
He joked that his spare parts inventory for the department 870's "Could fit into a shoe box, with enough room left over for a burger and fries".

He said that most of his 870 work was replacing broken sights, splintered and broken stocks and hand guards, bent and squashed barrels, and removing rust.

Since owners have to pay for their own guns, we tend to NOT abuse them, so they last a LOT longer without problems.
That's why most any decent quality pump gun will last for a life time.
That's also why most of these discussions about what's the best shotgun are moot.



Amen to that.

However, to fuel the fire (as it were), I'd just like to add that my 870 Express Magnum 20ga has a much smoother and sweeter action than my Mossberg 500A 12ga. In fact, I'm selling the mossberg (it's pretty tac'd out) to fund an 870 express 18"/7Shot.

Why have chicken when you can have steak?
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 5:07:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 10:15:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By ChupacabrA:
Originally Posted By dfariswheel:

Amen to that.

However, to fuel the fire (as it were), I'd just like to add that my 870 Express Magnum 20ga has a much smoother and sweeter action than my Mossberg 500A 12ga. In fact, I'm selling the mossberg (it's pretty tac'd out) to fund an 870 express 18"/7Shot.

Why have chicken when you can have steak? hr


I recently purchased the Express 7-shot for practical shooting competitions and so far, I do not regret it. It was a cheaper starting point being as I already had an SST870 from CavArms to put on it, and after about 250 rounds fired, it's quite smooth. I think I like the lighter springs in the Express' action, but only time will tell how durable they are compared to the P. I will eventually purchase a P and set it up the same just to make sure. (any excuse, eh?)
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 7:17:04 PM EST
Name change was to consolidate them across a number of forums.
Just easier to remember who I am where. heAnother reason is, I figure if 95% of the cops, and most of the military units that get to buy what they want buy the 870, who am I to argue.

I've always believed in buying the best quality safety equipment I could afford.
In this case, that's an 870 Police.

Due to a bad shoulder, I'm shopping for a Remington R3 recoil pad, and some Reduced Recoil buckshot so I can at least practice once in a while without destroying what's left of the shoulder.

Needless to say, if we get together to shoot the guns to destruction, I'll hold your coats while you shoot.
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 7:28:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 8:26:28 PM EST
"Twice a year all the men and boys in my family go to a sand pit and shoot shotguns with hand and spring throwers. I bring 10-12 shotguns with me every time. I shoot the .410 but the gun that all the kids want to use is that 20 gauge 870 because the action is so slicked up from use. Every man in my family is into guns and my younger sister was nice enough to marry into a major gun family. When we get together it is a gun show. My older sister was anti-gun. We got her husband to buy a rifle and shotgun but my sister was not happy. After 9-11 all my sister wanted to know was if Frank had enough guns! MIKE."


Now that was a heartwarming family story, Mike - thanks for sharing it, and I have to say that it sounds like a great time....



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 3/3/2005 9:15:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:
You don't own any ARs?...

(ETA: Just saw the "RUS" under your name - you probably don't, eh? )


I wish I had an AR, but here it is worth from $3.000+. So I'm just collecting my money for it.

Back to shotguns, BPS is a great gun. The only technical disadvantage comparing to 870 is lack of side ejection port hence it is impossible to chamber a shell directly to barrel. But the problem with accessories – the cheapest stock is worth $90 comparing to 30 for 870.

BTW, does anybody know how to get a magazine extension for BPS?
Link Posted: 3/4/2005 11:28:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2005 5:58:25 PM EST by Bigger_Hammer]
Hey Faris,

If your "shotgun shoulder" is bothering you, go with the Knoxx Comp-Stock.

I have one on my Rem 870 Super Mag 3.5" and I can tell you that I can fire and fire box after box of shells without any pain, bruises or "stiffness of the shoulder".

It was inexpensive to purchase (under $100) and the best money I ever spent on a gun accessory (and if you knew how many dollars I have spent over so many guns over so many years then you would know that is HIGH praise indeed!!)

I've used my Knoxxed 870 to show new shooters that a 12 guage doesn't have to hurt when 12 guage shells go out (well at least doesn't have to hurt from the shooters side of the shotgun!)

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:39:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 8:40:45 AM EST by chapperjoe]
The nova is DAMN smooth though, something about how the action is not all produced by your hand, some kind of mechanical advantage, I dunno.

I had a choice between the WC Border Patrol (basically their base model with ghost ring sights and armor tough finish) and an FN TPS. I chose the TPS due to its AR raised sights and integral rail. Then I decided I wanted a traditional 870. So the Wilson is coming next. I'll give amateur opinons when i have them both. But I don't see how a Wilson 870 can be anything but perfect.

And a whole thread without eye candy., for shame.



and yes I like the iron sights (ironically enough) but keep the eotech nearby for trap shooting!
and yes, the surefire foreend is on the way.
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