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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/20/2002 9:44:21 AM EDT
It seems a two stage trigger is the first thing many guys put on their rifles to shoot more accurately. It also seems 2 stage triggers can be bought for about $100 retail.
So with the government buying rifles in such large quantities, couldn't they buy rifles with 2 stage triggers already installed for not much more money ? Does the military's use of single stage triggers have something to do with their use of full auto and 3 shot burst ? IE are 2 stage triggers no good with FA ? Are 2 stage triggers any less reliable in semi auto guns ?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:55:53 AM EDT
Actually, the M16 is the first U.S. military arm to NOT use a two stage trigger.

The M14, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, all versions of the M1903 Springfield and the M1917 Enfield used a two stage trigger. And I'm certain, but don't know for sure, that the Krag-Jorgenson rifles used a two stage trigger.

As far as the previous models of single shot rifles, I don't know what kind of trigger they used.

If the M16 wasn't the first, then it was the first in the 20th Century.

I don't really know why Gene Stoner designed it that way, or why it was accepted that way, either.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:19:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:23:42 AM EDT
what is a 2 stage trigger??
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:40:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
what is a 2 stage trigger??



You'll find the answer here: communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/triggerfaq.msnw
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 11:40:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 11:43:13 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
1911, a 2 stage trigger makes the act of pulling the trigger a noticable 2 step process.
The first stage involves removing the slack/travel and at the end of the slack there is a point where the trigger reaches a intermediate stop/pause. The second stage breaks the trigger and looses the firing pin. On early military rifles as listed above these were standard, once you get used to them, their hard not to like, IMHO.

On benchrest rifles these types of triggers are very common, as the trigger weights involved are in most cases less than an ounce, (total for both stages). I relate them to set-trigger rifles, common in black powder, where one trigger (front) cocks and pre-loads the set-trigger (rear) and then finger is moved to the set-trigger (which has a very light pull) which breaks the shot.

Mike
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:44:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Single-stage triggers are better for fast shots (which is why the IPSC guys love their single-action 1911s).

Two-stage triggers are better for slow, deliberate fire. But that's not what the AR15/M16 was designed for.

-Troy



Aren't most 1911s two stage? GoldCups certainly have a noticable two stage pull. Are Kimbers target and Wilsons two stage?

M4-AK
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:48:18 PM EDT
None have 2 stage triggers, you might be confusing creep with the other.
GG
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:30:18 PM EDT
There isn't a need for it one a combat rifle, you won't notice the trigger pull if someone is try to kill you.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 3:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
None have 2 stage triggers, you might be confusing creep with the other.
GG




There is clearly spring loaded clean free play (i.e. a 2 stage trigger) on the 3 1911 triggers I checked. This is as opposed to a standard AR where the trigger rests against the break point.

Take out your 1911 and see what I mean. Don't know about Les Baers, Wilsons, and other 1911 target grade pistols.

Maybe the 3 I checked are different than most. Would like to see others checked to see if they have a first stage. So If I am right and they do, are the guns used in competitions modified to remove the 2 stage?

M4-AK
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-AK:

Originally Posted By Troy:
Single-stage triggers are better for fast shots (which is why the IPSC guys love their single-action 1911s).

Two-stage triggers are better for slow, deliberate fire. But that's not what the AR15/M16 was designed for.

-Troy



Aren't most 1911s two stage? GoldCups certainly have a noticable two stage pull. Are Kimbers target and Wilsons two stage?

M4-AK



My Springfield 1911 is two stage. I believe the Kimber is two stage as well.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:07:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By M4-AK:

Originally Posted By Troy:
Single-stage triggers are better for fast shots (which is why the IPSC guys love their single-action 1911s).

Two-stage triggers are better for slow, deliberate fire. But that's not what the AR15/M16 was designed for.

-Troy



Aren't most 1911s two stage? GoldCups certainly have a noticable two stage pull. Are Kimbers target and Wilsons two stage?

M4-AK



My Springfield 1911 is two stage. I believe the Kimber is two stage as well.



Therefore 2 stage triggers are (can't be so bad) okay for rapid fire?

M4-AK
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:25:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By M4-AK:

Originally Posted By Troy:
Single-stage triggers are better for fast shots (which is why the IPSC guys love their single-action 1911s).

Two-stage triggers are better for slow, deliberate fire. But that's not what the AR15/M16 was designed for.

-Troy



Aren't most 1911s two stage? GoldCups certainly have a noticable two stage pull. Are Kimbers target and Wilsons two stage?

M4-AK



My Springfield 1911 is two stage. I believe the Kimber is two stage as well.



I never heard of a true 1911 design with a 2 stage trigger. Why do you think its 2 stage?
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 6:29:49 PM EDT
FWIW in shotgun competitions there is a RELEASE TRIGGER. This type trigger is supposed to cure flinching. Any shotgun equipped with a release trigger must be marked with a decal for competition so the range safety officiers know its a release trigger.

The way it works is you pull the trigger to set it, then you call for the target. When you RELEASE the trigger the gun goes off.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 7:22:10 PM EDT

Various forms of 2-stage. Some, like an unmodified M1911 pistol just have lots of trigger bar movement before the bar touches the sear.


communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/triggerfaq.msnw

Possibly the difference is that a 1911 is not a mechanically designed two stage (i.e., a standard milspec trigger is a single stage with some slop -- whereas my Wilson Combat has no takeup before sear engagement). A 1911 trigger moves freely in its housing before directly engaging the sear.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I've got to start getting my rifle out when I post), but doesn't an AR15/M16 trigger directly engage the sear? Kind'a like a 1911, isn't it possible to have some take up slop in an AR15/M16? I know there's a slight movement and increase in pressure in my stock triggers. Heck, even most modern stock 1911 triggers are better than AR15's in take up.

Whereas a true two stage has a mechanical first and second stage built in. It's not just "slop."

So I don't necessarily think that you can confuse "sloppy takeup" with a two stage trigger.

Those in the know pleases correct me if I'm wrong. This is just kind'a what I could gleen from my experience with 1911's, DA/SA autos and AR15/M16's.

ALTHOUGH, even before pushing the send button I had to edit this to add:

On a 1911, 3 springs come into play on the firing mechanism.

1. The sear spring finger pushing on the trigger;

2. The sear spring finger pushing on the sear;

3. The mainspring pushing on the hammer strut and hammer.

So, I suppose that you could create a really good two stage in a 1911 by tweaking #1 to about 5 pounds of pressure and then setting #2 and #3 to a hammer drop weight of around 2 pounds. Is it realistic or practical in a 1911? I don't know. Guess I'll have to defer to the experts.

I'm starting to confuse myself.

DROP THE DREMEL TOOL AND MOVE AWAY FROM THE 1911.

There. That shocked my back into reality. Sorry for the rambling. Maybe somebody can set us straight.

(PS I'm smart enough to not even own a dremel tool. Though it would have been useful in removing that blade from my lawn mower....)
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:28:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-AK:

Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
None have 2 stage triggers, you might be confusing creep with the other.
GG




There is clearly spring loaded clean free play (i.e. a 2 stage trigger) on the 3 1911 triggers I checked. This is as opposed to a standard AR where the trigger rests against the break point.

Take out your 1911 and see what I mean. Don't know about Les Baers, Wilsons, and other 1911 target grade pistols.

Maybe the 3 I checked are different than most. Would like to see others checked to see if they have a first stage. So If I am right and they do, are the guns used in competitions modified to remove the 2 stage?

M4-AK


Dude you are high, I sell these damn things all day long, your confusing it with "creep" go to a 1911 forum and check it out
GG.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 9:53:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:
There isn't a need for it one a combat rifle, you won't notice the trigger pull if someone is try to kill you.



That is so right, men in combat, their brain turns into water and shit out of their ass, everything is function under training and instinct.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 10:55:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:
I never heard of a true 1911 design with a 2 stage trigger. Why do you think its 2 stage?



It feels like a two stage. Perhaps it is just slop and not a true two stage, but it feels like two stages to me.

I have a two stage target trigger on my AR. I mostly use it for deliberate target shooting, but recently I started practicing snap shooting with it. As far as I can tell the two stage trigger isn't a disadvantage, but then I'm not a high speed IPSC shooter . . .
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