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Posted: 1/26/2006 2:58:05 PM EDT
First off I am not a troll and I am just speaking out on what I have seen.

After being a lurker on this website for quite awhile, I constantly see people arguing about whether or not a shotgun is a good homedefense tool compared to an M4 or some type of AR-15. I usually agree that the shotgun isn't a good thing for home defense. Why did I come to this conclusion?
Heres Why
I have seen videos of Iraq, where the point man whips out his shotgun, blows the lock, then slings the shotgun back, and brings his M4/AR-15/M16 to a low ready. Why didn't he keep his shotgun out if the shotgun was such a good tool? This has to mean that the shotgun isn't as good.

Now, being the good citizen I am I refuse to go with only one fact to support my claim. Public schooling has taught me to examine things closley before taking them for face value.

I find this:

and this


To me this sure as hell is more devasting than the 5.56. Why isn't the 12 guage being used? Why do the soldiers transition to their M4 after they breech a door? Isn't this type of power wanted? Surely no one could argue that the 5.56 does more damage.

Question
There must be something I am overlooking. Why NOT use a shotgun?



Images obtained from: www.brassfetcher.com/gpage.html
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:05:15 PM EDT
My thought is that in Iraq, they are generally using lockbuster slugs (I have no clue what the propper name is for it), rather than buckshot.

I think that for extremely close quarters, a shotgun cannot be beat. Point. Shoot. Drop.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:32:53 PM EDT
You also have the potential for the combatants to be using body armor. Buckshot, while it would definitely break bones and knock the guy on his ass, will not kill the enemy. Nearly any rifle round at that range will go right through armor.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:42:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burkey:
First off I am not a troll and I am just speaking out on what I have seen.

After being a lurker on this website for quite awhile, I constantly see people arguing about whether or not a shotgun is a good homedefense tool compared to an M4 or some type of AR-15. I usually agree that the shotgun isn't a good thing for home defense. Why did I come to this conclusion?
Heres Why
I have seen videos of Iraq, where the point man whips out his shotgun, blows the lock, then slings the shotgun back, and brings his M4/AR-15/M16 to a low ready. Why didn't he keep his shotgun out if the shotgun was such a good tool? This has to mean that the shotgun isn't as good.

Now, being the good citizen I am I refuse to go with only one fact to support my claim. Public schooling has taught me to examine things closley before taking them for face value.

I find this:
www.brassfetcher.com/images/12gintro.JPG
and this
www.brassfetcher.com/images/number1buck.JPG

To me this sure as hell is more devasting than the 5.56. Why isn't the 12 guage being used? Why do the soldiers transition to their M4 after they breech a door? Isn't this type of power wanted? Surely no one could argue that the 5.56 does more damage.

Question
There must be something I am overlooking. Why NOT use a shotgun?



Images obtained from: www.brassfetcher.com/gpage.html






All projectile effectiveness aside, would you want to be first through the door into a room full of AK wielding hadjis with a 4 shot manually operated weapon?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:59:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
My thought is that in Iraq, they are generally using lockbuster slugs (I have no clue what the propper name is for it), rather than buckshot.

I think that for extremely close quarters, a shotgun cannot be beat. Point. Shoot. Drop.



I never thought of the rounds they may be using, very good point, but still, would a 2nd man enter with a shotgun, loaded with 00 buck, if it was so good?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:44:36 PM EDT
As you can see in the side-profile pic, that shot can penetrate up to 20 inches.

IIRC, if a 5.56 round fragments, it should do so in around a foot of penetration.

This means if you have a hit on someone (especially with body armor) the round probably won't be coming out the other side, through a wall, and possibly into a friendly. Likewise with a miss.

And to the guys saying point and shoot with the shotty, the wad won't even separate at room distance so all you're doing is shooting a round 3 times as big as a 5.56. You still have the same basic motions of bringing the gun to your shoulder, getting a site picture, and pulling the trigger. A shotgun doesn't hit everything in the room when you pull the trigger, just what you're pointing it at. No different than a rifle.

Just my $.02

WIZZO
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:51:01 PM EDT
I live in the basement. By the time I got upstairs in the event of a break in, it is likely the intruder would be between me and the bedrooms of my family. Worrying about where one bullet is going to go is enough, much less a load of buckshot.... not even sure that I would take the shot with a rifle.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:20:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:


All projectile effectiveness aside, would you want to be first through the door into a room full of AK wielding hadjis with a 4 shot manually operated weapon?



Plus the recoil of the shotgun would slow recovery and time needed for followup shots.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:30:59 PM EDT
A military weapon needs to be able to do several things well, instead of one or two really well at the expense of others. Shotguns are just too specific use when it comes to warfare.

Most of the reason you don't hear as much about shotguns for home defense nowadays, is that shotguns are not considered by many to be "sexy" "cool" or "tactical" or "high speed." M4geries on the other hand are thought to be dead sexy and we all know how your home defense weapon should be able to keep a fire team at bay 300 yards away, as well as costing the equivalent of several car payments, with an equal amount of accessories thrown in.

As far as those saying buck won't spread at home defense distances, the usual standard for a cylinder bore shotgun is one inch per yard. Back when my short 870 was still a cylinder bore I confirmed this for myself. Now even in my small ass college apartment, there are possible twenty to thirty foot shot opportunities. That would make for roughly seven to ten inch patterns with buck. Not "shoot from the hip and kill everything in the room" like the movies show, but it does allow for a bit of leeway compared to a 5.56 bullet.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:58:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23c:

Originally Posted By triburst1:


All projectile effectiveness aside, would you want to be first through the door into a room full of AK wielding hadjis with a 4 shot manually operated weapon?



Plus the recoil of the shotgun would slow recovery and time needed for followup shots.



what about a semi-auto shotgun? does that make up for many of these shortcomings?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:32:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aaronrb204:

Originally Posted By glock23c:

Originally Posted By triburst1:


All projectile effectiveness aside, would you want to be first through the door into a room full of AK wielding hadjis with a 4 shot manually operated weapon?



Plus the recoil of the shotgun would slow recovery and time needed for followup shots.



what about a semi-auto shotgun? does that make up for many of these shortcomings?



Not for the low ammo capcity.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:53:48 PM EDT
Everybody loves a shotgun for the first seven shots.


If you are talking home defense, a shotgun works because A. you are not in an extended firefight B. you do not want to dump 25 rounds thru the walls and into the neighbors and C. it is easy to aim and at 12 feet a nice #8 skeet works perfect and your wife can use it.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:22:55 AM EDT
Just FYI to confirm a few things.

My Saiga-12 with buckshot recoils about the same as a .308 semi-auto.
The same Saiga-12 with a 12.5" barrel will pattern about 15-18 inches at 15 yards. Agrees with the 1" spread/yard.
With slugs at 15 yards, I can get all holes (agreed, rather large) touching.
The max mag capacity is still 8+1.

For home defense, they are exceptionally powerful close range (up to 50 yards) weapons.

I agree with the previous poster about the military trusting their rifle.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:53:58 AM EDT
Shotguns are slow as shit to reload. Shotguns dont hold much ammo. Saigas can be loaded for unlimited time with a closed bolt because it will deform the round and cause a malfunction. Shotguns that are not SBS have to have an 18" barrel instead of 16" and the reciever is longer so its REAL long.

If I could get a short barreled, magazine fed, 20 ga with 10 round magazine, #1 buck, metal hulled ammo and the magazine would load/unload like an AR with a bolt hold open then we would be talking shotguns. Right now there are no shotguns I would want over a Commando.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:24:31 AM EDT
I've been a breacher. When you enter the room you do not want a pistol grip shotgun, they are too hard to shoot past a few yards. From the start I just fired 1-3 rounds at the locks or hinges. That leaves only few rounds left! Fire the shotgun, swing it around and grab your M4 to enter room. What happens when you breach that outer door and you enter into a court yard with 15-20 yd open space with rooms further back that has someone pointing a AK at you? Shotguns also lack the range when exiting a building where you can engage as far as you can see.

CD

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:24:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:28:33 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By lonegunman:
Everybody loves a shotgun for the first seven shots.


If you are talking home defense, a shotgun works because A. you are not in an extended firefight Don't bet on it. In a small town near here a few weeks ago, a man was shot at by two intruders in his house and emptied a 6 shot revolver and a 10/22 in the ensuing firefight. He ran out of ammo and was shot before the assailants escaped.

B. you do not want to dump 25 rounds thru the walls and into the neighbors and 3 rounds of 00 buck would dump 27 projectiles through said wall, and buck is more likely to overpenetrate than 5.56 rounds


C. it is easy to aim and at 12 feet a nice #8 skeet works perfect and your wife can use it.Anything smaller than buck is a very poor choice for defesive use. Would you try to kill a 200 lb deer with birdshot? Why you bet on birdshot stopping a 200 lb felon?

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23c:

Originally Posted By triburst1:


All projectile effectiveness aside, would you want to be first through the door into a room full of AK wielding hadjis with a 4 shot manually operated weapon?



Plus the recoil of the shotgun would slow recovery and time needed for followup shots.



Exactly. Current military doctrine emphasizes firepower, which means putting as many rounds on (or at) the target as possible. The low ammo capacity, slow follow-up shots, and slow reload times of a shotgun all work against it in that light.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:06:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 11:07:15 AM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By DevL:
Shotguns are slow as shit to reload. Shotguns dont hold much ammo. Saigas can be loaded for unlimited time with a closed bolt because it will deform the round and cause a malfunction. Shotguns that are not SBS have to have an 18" barrel instead of 16" and the reciever is longer so its REAL long.

If I could get a short barreled, magazine fed, 20 ga with 10 round magazine, #1 buck, metal hulled ammo and the magazine would load/unload like an AR with a bolt hold open then we would be talking shotguns. Right now there are no shotguns I would want over a Commando.



A Commando is a SBR.

That and I've never had a problem with a first round being deformed.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:09:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 11:17:10 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]
Recoil
Capacity
Penetration against armour


ETA: And reload time (if 28 doesn't cut it)
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:27:21 PM EDT
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:44:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 12:45:31 PM EDT by shogun187]

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.



You'd rather have 1200 fps with 350 f/lbs vs. 3000fps and 1100 f/lbs?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:57:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shogun187:

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.



You'd rather have 1200 fps with 350 f/lbs vs. 3000fps and 1100 f/lbs?



I'd rather have a sock full of quarters.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:59:49 PM EDT
Let me put it this way: I have no personal experience with room clearing using any of these weapons, but I work with a member of a SWAT team (I'm not an officer myself) and he voiced his opinions as so. An MP5 can put 30 rounds into a fist sized circle faster than a M4 due to light recoil and manageable size. When you have multiple 9mm rounds going into someone, it will have stopping power. Also, with 9mm, you have much less of a chance of the bullet passing clean through the person. Unless you are using frangibles, a 3000 fps 5.56 round will pass right through someone.

I know a 5.56 fragments at close range, but you know that these rounds pass through people often at close range. Many reports have indicated so.

I don't want this to turn into a 9mm vs. 5.56 fight, this is just my opinion and my boss's opinion. I don't doubt the 5.56's ability to drop someone, but this is about the BEST weapon for home defense, or as this thread has turned into, CQB.

If it were my decision, I'd pick a .45 for the job over any of it. But I used the 9mm as an example because of its use in the military.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 12:59:59 PM EDT
http://www.bobtuley.com/terminal.htm

http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html

two links with good info
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 1:07:06 PM EDT
IMO, rifle>shotgun>pistol.

It's all shot placement in the end.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 1:12:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 1:16:20 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]
The Myth of 223 Over-Penetration

WHEN CRIME STRIKES, THE PROPER EQUIPMENT AND TACTICS WILL TURN YOUR HOME INTO A SAFE ZONE INSTEAD OF AN...

Massad Ayoob

Something is in your nest with your mate and your cubs. It's a carnivorous predator, and it has intruded with obviously harmful intent.

Instinct tells you what to do. Destroy the invader! But that selfsame instinct screams an equally imperative order: Destroy the intruder without harming the very family we are responsible to protect!

This is the cornerstone of survival instinct in all mammals, us included. It is also pretty much the "prime directive" in home defense planning for the worst case scenario. The dwelling has been breached by violent, lawless intruders capable of killing or maiming and the situation has digressed to what used to be put in simple terms: "Kill or be killed."

If you are reading this publication, I assume your Plan A is to repel this assault with legally possessed firearms, in accordance with the laws of the land. I'm with you so far. It's a "Plan A" I grew up with as a child, the son and the grandson of men who had used lethal force as armed citizens to survive in this country. It's a plan that remains in place for me today as a man who has spent half a century on this planet, and half of that as a sworn law enforcement officer and use of force instructor.

We have the guns. We have the plan. Let's talk about the ammunition. The great small arms authority Col. Jeff Cooper made the point that firearms are secondary, because they are the launchers, and ammunition is primary, because that's what delivers the necessary effect on target.

Mission Objectives

For us to be warranted in firing a lethal weapon at another human being, that other person must be doing something so horrible that law, morality and logic alike demand that he must be stopped as instantaneously as possible. The object is not to kill, but to stop; though if the stopping causes his death, it is a sad but acceptable byproduct of the resolution of the life-threatening emergency he himself created. In violating innocent people's right to live, he surrenders his own.

We must make certain, however, that our exertion of this potentially fatal force does not unnecessarily endanger the lives of the very same innocent people we are protecting. In marksmanship, it is known as "the rule of the backstop." You do not fire the gun unless you are reasonably and prudently certain the bullet will stop in a place that will not endanger innocent life.

Let us pause and analyze what this means.

On a firing range, the backstop is the steel banking or earthen berm behind the targets that catches the projectiles we fire. In the game fields, the backstop is the ground or the heavy vegetation behind the animal we fired at.

It is extremely rare for a defensive shooting to take place where there is a natural backstop, let alone a range berm. It happens occasionally, though: the traffic stop gone bad or the murder attempt out in the middle of nowhere. The occasional shooting in cities where there's nothing but sheer, heavy concrete walls or brick behind the perpetrator, but those too are rare.

We are talking home defense here. I've been to places like rural South Africa where homes are built with massive, heavy walls not only on the outside but also between the rooms on the inside. The descendants of the voortrekkers have spent well over a century defending their remote homes from all manner of besiegers, and they have incorporated it into their architecture.

Most reading this, however, are in the United States. Our homes, whether houses or apartments, simply aren't built like that. We're talking lath and sheetrock. This stuff doesn't stop any but the most frangible bullets. In fact, it tends to plug hollowpoint pistol bullets and make them penetrate deeper once they emerge on the other side.

The Myth And The Reality

Analyzing a ballistics issue that examined penetration and potential over-penetration, Larry Nichols, the rangemaster for the Burbank, California Police Department conducted several tests and discovered some interesting facts. Take a look at the following chart:

Looking at the chart, the first thing you notice is the startling over-penetration of the typical JHP pistol bullet once its nose is packed with an inert substance. The second thing you notice is that the over-penetration effect of .223 rifle ammo may have been highly exaggerated. This validates the recommendation of Thunder Ranch director Clint Smith, who prefers and recommends a short .223 caliber AR-15 rifle as a home defense weapon.

One conclusion we can't escape is this: all these rounds are going to go through walls with enough power to kill any human being on the other side.

This means a backstop is needed, and there is only one backstop you can count on in this situation. It is the body of the violent attacker.

Body As Backstop

One of the respected experts Larry Nichols referred to and drew upon was Dr. Gary Roberts who wrote an article titled "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 gauge Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10 percent Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." It appeared in the July/August 1998 issue of the respected law enforcement journal, Police Marksman.

Roberts found that in bare gelatin, a Winchester 230 gr. SXT hollowpoint from a 5" barrel Colt Government .45 pistol would penetrate an average of 14.2', mushroom to an average diameter of .71", and lose an average of only 2.3 grains of weight by the time it had come to rest.

Remington 12 gauge 00 buckshot sent each of its .32 caliber spheres an average of 22.8" into the test medium, each apparently coming to rest intact. The test weapon was a Remington 870 pump shotgun with 18" barrel and cylinder bore.

A 16" barrel AR-15A2 Colt Sporter with 1:7 rifling twist was used to fire the .223 rounds in the test Roberts wrote about. Federal's high-speed 40 gr. hollowpoint, sometimes known as the "Blitz" round, penetrated only 6.7". into the gelatin with approximately 87 percent fragmentation.

The Glaser 45 grain Safety Slug from the same .223 rifle pierced 7.7" with total fragmentation. Winchester's 53 grain hollowpoint .223 went only 8.0" with 72.5 percent disintegration. All delivered massive cavitation.

None of these .223 bullets are likely to exit the body of an average size male on a frontal torso shot. All are likely to cause tremendous damage of the kind that stops lethal assaults instantly.

The swift ending of the lethal assault brings safety. The bullet staying inside the body of the lethal offender brings safety. The key in both cases is only partially the effect of the projectile. First and foremost is placing the projectile into the center of the body of the opponent.

Choose Your Battlefield

Scope out your home like a general selecting a battleground. Figure out where you're most likely to confront an assailant. Where is there likely to be a backstop?

If it looks like a shot you fired and missed would go through walls and kill innocent people, your option list is a short one.

You can simply decide, "I won't shoot from here." Unfortunately, the intruder may not cooperate with this policy. You can decide, "I'll use a very low penetration round, like tiny birdshot." That may mitigate the penetration problem, but that which won't go through sheetrock won't go deep enough through human flesh to stop a big, aggressive armed criminal, either.

Or, you can put a backstop in place.

I know people who've bulletproofed their walls. They all had certain things in common: they had already been terrorized once, and they had lots of money. Not too many of us can follow their lead. So, let's look at alternatives.

File cabinets, even sheet steel ones, won't stop much by themselves. If they're packed with printed matter, however, from the front or the back they become backstops for handgun and shotgun rounds. (From the side, bullets can slip between the file folders and documents.) There will, however, be air spaces between the file drawers that a projectile could snake through.

Densely packed bookshelves can also act as backstops. Naturally, the bookshelves and file cabinets can also act as cover. You want to be where the flat of each book in the stack, not its spine, is between you and the "incoming." Again, you want everything densely packed, with airspace filled in. You want the material to be at least the full height of the tallest good guy or gal in the place who's likely to take cover behind it.

Most magazines are about the same size. This produces much more even stacking with less airspace. For use as cover, stack two rows of books or magazines deep, and make sure they're tightly packed with the flats toward the predictable angle of opposite fire.

How much will they stop? I took some old paperbacks with me to the range and shot them with the guns I had with me. All the ammo was Winchester.

According to one medical examiner who has done 30 to 40 autopsies on people killed with the round, Winchester's .45 ACP 185 gr. Silvertip HP invariably mushrooms, and it stays in a human body roughly nine times out of 10. Fired from the 4 1/2" barrel of a Ruger P-90, the .45 Silvertip deformed significantly and stopped 3 7/8" into the stack.

A Winchester USA brand 230 gr. FMJ slug from the same .45 stopped at 5 3/8". It showed no deformation. This bullet will usually exit a human body, and can pierce more than two feet of ballistic gelatin.

A 200 gr. .44 Special Silvertip hollowpoint also deformed dramatically, and stopped in only 2 3/4" of the paperback book material who fired from a 4" Smith

& Wesson revolver.

Next up was the snubnose .38 Special, a Smith & Wesson Model 442. Winchester's SPD load, the 158 gr. all lead +P SWC HP that earned an enviable reputation when issued by FBI, Chicago, Metro-Dade, and the Mounties, penetrated 4 3/16", with some deformation. A 130 gr. SXT round from the same gun went only 3 7/8", and did not expand.

None of these loads penetrated more than 6". You don't need the Library of Congress to build a bookshelf that can also serve as a backstop or a cover point. Even lacking books and shelves, the same can be achieved with magazines tightly packed in a cardboard box -- tightly packed. Stack the boxes. Voila: cover and backstop. If that looks ugly, stick 'em all in a good-looking storage cabinet.

Lock And Load

Some special purpose loads make sense for home defense, the hollowpoint .223 being a case in point Some frangible-bullet handgun loads have been recommended on the theory that they won't go through sheetrock but will vaporize an opponent Actually, the more effective high-energy versions of these rounds may punch right through if they strike on a perpendicular angle. Glaser and MagSafe have both made rounds that can pierce "bullet-proof vests."

The old wisdom used to be to load with fine (tiny) birdshot This is devastating at very close range, but at "down the hall distance" the pellets may have spread enough that they won't have sufficient penetration into a large, heavily clad intruder.

I would personally go with #1 buckshot (twenty .30 caliber projectiles) in a full-power 12 gauge load, or reduced-recoil 00 buck (nine .32 to .33 caliber pellets), or #3 buckshot (twenty .25 caliber pellets) for a 20 gauge home defense shotgun. Remember though, low recoil buckshot won't feed reliably in all 12 gauge autoloaders.

In handgun loads, hollowpoints geared for optimum penetration rather than deep penetration make sense for home defense. In many calibers, the Silvertip line would be a good choice.

A handy home defense gun is the M-1 .30 carbine. Only one hollowpoint is made for it, Winchester's 110 grain at 1,990 fps. It's the hands-down choice for this purpose.

Home defense is more about the shooter than it is about the gun and the load. It's about consistent application of technique more than it's about the shooter. It's also about proper planning, tactics and mindset.

The first priority is awareness and preparedness. The second is proper use of tactics. Third comes skill with the safety equipment, which includes -- but is not limited to - the weapons. Fourth and last comes the selection of optimum weapons and ammunition to deal with the predictable threat

Ballistic Penetration In Gelatin

(Average penetration in bare ballistic gelatin)

.40 S&W 80 gr. JHP 14.2"
.223 Remington 55 gr. FMJ 14.3"
12 guage 00 buckshot 22.8"
12 guage 1 oz. slug 21.0"

(Average penetration in ballistic gelatin after passing
through typical interior sheetrock walls)

.40 S&W 180 gr. JHP 25.2"
.223 Remington 55 gr, FMJ 11.5"
12 guage 00 buckshot 23.2"
12 guage 1-oz. slug 23.4"
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:59:02 PM EDT
I use a 20 gauge shotgun for home defense.

I like my shotgun and am comfortable and familiar with it.

It also has never let me down with full power loads including buckshot and slugs.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:17:09 PM EDT
Shotguns are inferior because terminal ballistics aren't everything.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:30:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:33:19 PM EDT by ICEAGE]
I say whatevers handy will work, more Americans have shotguns then ARs, shotguns are both cheaper and easier to get.



I grew up hunting with shotguns, recoil doesnt bother me, by the time I've put a new shell in the chamber im already back on target anyways after years of hunting ducks, doves and shooting skeet/trap its easy to shoot accurately quickly.

Personly I dont own an AR yet(cant afford it yet :(), when I will and get training for it maybe it will be my HD weapon of choice im not sure, as of now im more comfterble with a shotgun cause its what I've been shooting for over 10 years and its what I own.

1st shot to chest if enemy has gun, second to head.

If enemy doesnt see me or have firearm in a position where he can fire quickly first shot to head.



My main concern is if this would ever happen the blood and or brains sprayed all over my walls/floors. I think I'd have to move.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:14:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.




First- You don't breach with a M9 or M16. Breaching and entering a room to conduct CQB are different. Breaching is the physical/mechanical/explosive means of gaining entrance to the structure. By using a shotgun to breach you place the muzzle against either the hinges or locks to destroy them. You do not want to use 00 Buckshot or slugs for the fact of overpenetration and richochets. That is way there are Hatten rounds/Breaching rounds using compressed powdered shot that discinerate when striking object. Smallest size bird shot works as a second choice. Remember there is quite a danger from richochets at contact distance, remember your shooting at a metal lock or hinges and stuff bounces back. That is why most breachers use a pistol gripped shotguns with no sights. Breaching with a pistol using FMJ will cause injury to fellow assualters and yourself. After you gain entry then you engage bad guys with more effiecent arms.

CD
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 10:52:07 PM EDT
I've cleared many a building with a pistol (P220 and P226R). I perfer pistols for house clearing around sharp corners with short distances.
When I need a long gun on duty, I can choose between a AR and a Shotgun. I go for the Shotgun for close situations and the AR f or longer ones. It's not scientific, but it works for me.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:40:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 4:38:47 AM EDT by lonegunman]

Don't bet on it. In a small town near here a few weeks ago, a man was shot at by two intruders in his house and emptied a 6 shot revolver and a 10/22 in the ensuing firefight. He ran out of ammo and was shot before the assailants escaped.


Six shot revolver loaded with what? and a 10/22? Maybe this guy needed a shotgun or at least some shooting lessons. 16 rounds is not an extended firefight. I would not base my decision making on a guy who uses a 10/22 as a self defense weapon.


Anything smaller than buck is a very poor choice for defesive use. Would you try to kill a 200 lb deer with birdshot? Why you bet on birdshot stopping a 200 lb felon?


It is 21 feet from the end of the hall to the front door, if the 1" a yard theory holds true that is a 7" wide 1 and 1/8 ounce lead charge. From one side of the bedroom to the bedroom door is even closer. I bet getting an ounce of #8 in the chest from 16 feet will hurt so bad a 200 pound guy won't wanna fight.


I prefer the "layered defense" and have more options besides the shotgun. That being said, a shotgun at close range works wonders. My brother got a new 870 pump at Wal-Mart for $180 dollars, it does not require and Eotech, magical laser lights, flashlights, foregrips, three point slings,quad rail handguard or a selection of 20 dollar a piece magazines. A 4 dollar box of shells for practice and 15 dollars worth of buckshot will get you going. For 1/4th the price of a basic AR15 you get a lot of home defense.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
A military weapon needs to be able to do several things well, instead of one or two really well at the expense of others. Shotguns are just too specific use when it comes to warfare.

Most of the reason you don't hear as much about shotguns for home defense nowadays, is that shotguns are not considered by many to be "sexy" "cool" or "tactical" or "high speed." M4geries on the other hand are thought to be dead sexy and we all know how your home defense weapon should be able to keep a fire team at bay 300 yards away, as well as costing the equivalent of several car payments, with an equal amount of accessories thrown in.

As far as those saying buck won't spread at home defense distances, the usual standard for a cylinder bore shotgun is one inch per yard. Back when my short 870 was still a cylinder bore I confirmed this for myself. Now even in my small ass college apartment, there are possible twenty to thirty foot shot opportunities. That would make for roughly seven to ten inch patterns with buck. Not "shoot from the hip and kill everything in the room" like the movies show, but it does allow for a bit of leeway compared to a 5.56 bullet.




Are these tactical enough for ya?

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:38:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:38:21 AM EDT by Blue_Genes]

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.




First- You don't breach with a M9 or M16. Breaching and entering a room to conduct CQB are different. Breaching is the physical/mechanical/explosive means of gaining entrance to the structure. By using a shotgun to breach you place the muzzle against either the hinges or locks to destroy them. You do not want to use 00 Buckshot or slugs for the fact of overpenetration and richochets. That is way there are Hatten rounds/Breaching rounds using compressed powdered shot that discinerate when striking object. Smallest size bird shot works as a second choice. Remember there is quite a danger from richochets at contact distance, remember your shooting at a metal lock or hinges and stuff bounces back. That is why most breachers use a pistol gripped shotguns with no sights. Breaching with a pistol using FMJ will cause injury to fellow assualters and yourself. After you gain entry then you engage bad guys with more effiecent arms.

CD



I'm sorry I used the wrong terminology, but I think it was obvious that I meant room clearing. I know you wouldn't try to use a pistol on a deadbolt. Hell, a pistol probably won't get through many locks.

What are your opinions on room clearing with a pistol?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:20:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted
If I could get a short barreled, magazine fed, 20 ga with 10 round magazine, #1 buck, metal hulled ammo and the magazine would load/unload like an AR with a bolt hold open then we would be talking shotguns. Right now there are no shotguns I would want over a Commando.



Saiga 12 modified for bolthold open from saiga12.com
Some of z1500's 10 rd magazines that will be out soon.
Low recoil buckshot.

Would take care of all of your requests except one: metal hulled ammo. Why metal hulled ammo?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:22:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GlobalFear:

Saiga 12 modified for bolthold open from saiga12.com
Some of z1500's 10 rd magazines that will be out soon.
Low recoil buckshot.

Would take care of all of your requests except one: metal hulled ammo. Why metal hulled ammo?



Because leaving the plastic hulled shells against the closed bolt causes them to compress/deform over time, possibly leading to misfeeds, etc.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:45:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 9:47:15 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By lonegunman:

Don't bet on it. In a small town near here a few weeks ago, a man was shot at by two intruders in his house and emptied a 6 shot revolver and a 10/22 in the ensuing firefight. He ran out of ammo and was shot before the assailants escaped.


Six shot revolver loaded with what? and a 10/22? Maybe this guy needed a shotgun or at least some shooting lessons. 16 rounds is not an extended firefight. I would not base my decision making on a guy who uses a 10/22 as a self defense weapon.


Anything smaller than buck is a very poor choice for defesive use. Would you try to kill a 200 lb deer with birdshot? Why you bet on birdshot stopping a 200 lb felon?


It is 21 feet from the end of the hall to the front door, if the 1" a yard theory holds true that is a 7" wide 1 and 1/8 ounce lead charge. From one side of the bedroom to the bedroom door is even closer. I bet getting an ounce of #8 in the chest from 16 feet will hurt so bad a 200 pound guy won't wanna fight.



It was a 2" .357 mag. He heard a noise, was going downstairs to investigate, and was fired on while walking down the stairs. The bad guys took cover behind a door frame and refrigerator and he was basically just using suppressive fire to keep them from advancing on him. They left after emptying a .380 and a sawed off 10/22. The cops caught the guys a couple weeks later. They still had the .380 they used which was stolen from a man they had beaten to death in his home a few weeks earlier. They were both chronic meth users.

It has nothing to do with the pattern of the shot. Birdshot does not have the mass to penetrate deep enough to cause a fight stopping wound. I once saw a guy shoot a 60 lb pit bull that was attacking his lab 5 times at point blank range with 2 3/4" #6 shot. The dog was seemingly unfazed and he had to beat it to death with the empty shotgun. I would hate to try the same load on a 220 lb felon on a three day meth binge.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:51:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Burkey:
First off I am not a troll and I am just speaking out on what I have seen.

After being a lurker on this website for quite awhile, I constantly see people arguing about whether or not a shotgun is a good homedefense tool compared to an M4 or some type of AR-15. I usually agree that the shotgun isn't a good thing for home defense. Why did I come to this conclusion?
Heres Why
I have seen videos of Iraq, where the point man whips out his shotgun, blows the lock, then slings the shotgun back, and brings his M4/AR-15/M16 to a low ready. Why didn't he keep his shotgun out if the shotgun was such a good tool? This has to mean that the shotgun isn't as good.



Well the door breeching shotgun is usually loaded with door breeching ammo. Which although dangerous at close range, it is not particularly accurate and most guidlines say it should not be used for antipersonal use at beyond 25M.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:13:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:


Are these tactical enough for ya?

i1.tinypic.com/mre5ch.jpg



I suppose. I really don't give a rat's ass what's considered tactical or not. But them Saigas sure are cute.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:00:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.




First- You don't breach with a M9 or M16. Breaching and entering a room to conduct CQB are different. Breaching is the physical/mechanical/explosive means of gaining entrance to the structure. By using a shotgun to breach you place the muzzle against either the hinges or locks to destroy them. You do not want to use 00 Buckshot or slugs for the fact of overpenetration and richochets. That is way there are Hatten rounds/Breaching rounds using compressed powdered shot that discinerate when striking object. Smallest size bird shot works as a second choice. Remember there is quite a danger from richochets at contact distance, remember your shooting at a metal lock or hinges and stuff bounces back. That is why most breachers use a pistol gripped shotguns with no sights. Breaching with a pistol using FMJ will cause injury to fellow assualters and yourself. After you gain entry then you engage bad guys with more effiecent arms.

CD



I'm sorry I used the wrong terminology, but I think it was obvious that I meant room clearing. I know you wouldn't try to use a pistol on a deadbolt. Hell, a pistol probably won't get through many locks.

What are your opinions on room clearing with a pistol?



Blue Genes,

That's what I thought you meant, just wanted to clarifiy some things. In the military the pistol gripped shotgun is a breachers tool or a backup inside vehicles. Generally we do not use it for CQB the reason why is range, followup shots, slow to reload and weight of ammo.

As far as room clearing with a pistol it is done when you only have one hand avalible, or your primary weapon is down. Yes, it can be done but always seek better weapons and friends. You want to use the most lethal means avalible to take down the bad guys and domiant the situation. However, the pistol is not issued to everyone in the service. I'm lucky enough to have had one along with my rifle my whole career. CQB roles was one of the reasons we pushed to get away from the M16A2 and go with the M4 for all of SOF. Standard service rifle for the Army is still the long M16 which is clumbersome doing CQB. Follow up shots and accuracy is better with a long gun then a pistol in my opinion plus more lethal. In MOUT it is just not one room or floor but mulitple floors and buildings/compounds that have to be clear, searched and secured.

CD
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:43:19 AM EDT
Are door breaching rounds NFA devices?

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:27:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
Are door breaching rounds NFA devices?




No. you can buy them at SG.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:42:39 PM EDT
Cant we just nuke the mother fuckers?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:17:01 PM EDT
There's a time and a place for shottys. For my house its the bedroom gun for its advantages but its got too many disavantages to use as a main long gun.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:22:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:23:25 PM EDT by Blue_Genes]

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:

Originally Posted By Combat_Diver:

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
I'll be honest with you, I'd feel more comfortable breaching with an M9 than a M16. At close range, a 9mm has some punch. Now it isn't anything like a 12g of course, but at long as we are comparing different CQB weapons, it should be noted.

Pistols have low recoil, are very managable and light, and have a decent mag capacity.




First- You don't breach with a M9 or M16. Breaching and entering a room to conduct CQB are different. Breaching is the physical/mechanical/explosive means of gaining entrance to the structure. By using a shotgun to breach you place the muzzle against either the hinges or locks to destroy them. You do not want to use 00 Buckshot or slugs for the fact of overpenetration and richochets. That is way there are Hatten rounds/Breaching rounds using compressed powdered shot that discinerate when striking object. Smallest size bird shot works as a second choice. Remember there is quite a danger from richochets at contact distance, remember your shooting at a metal lock or hinges and stuff bounces back. That is why most breachers use a pistol gripped shotguns with no sights. Breaching with a pistol using FMJ will cause injury to fellow assualters and yourself. After you gain entry then you engage bad guys with more effiecent arms.

CD



I'm sorry I used the wrong terminology, but I think it was obvious that I meant room clearing. I know you wouldn't try to use a pistol on a deadbolt. Hell, a pistol probably won't get through many locks.

What are your opinions on room clearing with a pistol?



Blue Genes,

That's what I thought you meant, just wanted to clarifiy some things. In the military the pistol gripped shotgun is a breachers tool or a backup inside vehicles. Generally we do not use it for CQB the reason why is range, followup shots, slow to reload and weight of ammo.

As far as room clearing with a pistol it is done when you only have one hand avalible, or your primary weapon is down. Yes, it can be done but always seek better weapons and friends. You want to use the most lethal means avalible to take down the bad guys and domiant the situation. However, the pistol is not issued to everyone in the service. I'm lucky enough to have had one along with my rifle my whole career. CQB roles was one of the reasons we pushed to get away from the M16A2 and go with the M4 for all of SOF. Standard service rifle for the Army is still the long M16 which is clumbersome doing CQB. Follow up shots and accuracy is better with a long gun then a pistol in my opinion plus more lethal. In MOUT it is just not one room or floor but mulitple floors and buildings/compounds that have to be clear, searched and secured.

CD



Rereading my second post, I didn't realize how much of an ass I sounded like. I am a young shooter learning, and I appreciate all of the advice I can get. I am not in the military yet and won't claim to know anything specific about these situations. I can only offer my opinions and thoughts.

I appreciate you keeping your response mature and not retaliatory like some members I have come across.

Back on subject now, I see what you mean about using the most lethal device possible for the situation. Dropping the BG is the most important thing in a war enviroment. I have seen so many videos and pictures of soldiers in Iraq room clearing with pistols, so I still don't know what to think.

I don't know if there is a perfect weapon for the situation. Maybe the military should just issue 40w Plasma Rifles.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:34:32 PM EDT by bishopm14]

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes

I don't know if there is a perfect weapon for the situation. Maybe the military should just issue 40w Plasma Rifles.



Dude, you missed that? They already did a couple years ago, but they kept jamming and it turns out they wouldn't put the bad guys down like a 60w Plasma Rifle would.Even though no one has ever used a 60w Plasma Rifle, everyone just knew they would be better. So they took them back,and stuck with the current weapons.

ETA: Friggin' nice even post number like 200 and I waste it bein' a smartass. Go figure.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:36:37 PM EDT
it seems worth repeating about the shotgun being a slow recovery time...it is possible, under a stressful situation, to miss with 9 pellots from buckshot...
unless you are Sylvester Stallone, you will have that short barrel shotgun over your head and be looking at an enemy while you are trying to get it down to aim again...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:55:41 PM EDT
Recoil IS a factor, but how much really? Anyone that does trap shooting knows you can get off fast accurate shots with a shotgun. Not AS fast as a rifle or a pistol, but you have a gun like that, it will drop them on the first hit, unlike a M16 or a M9.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:07:08 PM EDT
Blue Genes, I've trained to clear rooms with an M4 and a 1911, and I have to say that the M4 is faster, more accurate, more lethal, and suprisingly short. In fact, on of the reasons I like short M4s is because they are shorter than a pistol at full extension. A lot of people use pistols because their issue weapon is an M6, MG, or SWS.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:13:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:
Recoil IS a factor, but how much really? Anyone that does trap shooting knows you can get off fast accurate shots with a shotgun. Not AS fast as a rifle or a pistol, but you have a gun like that, it will drop them on the first hit, unlike a M16 or a M9.



There are too many factors to say that about stopping power. Oh, I've heard a lot of stories about 12 ga failing miserably where 9MM has made at least one 72 yard first round stop. Don't count on anything working.
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