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Posted: 6/27/2015 5:54:31 PM EDT
What are my options? Off the top of my head, there's MP-5 variants, the MPX, and the Calico? What else? does the Calico suppress well with the ejection port on the bottom?
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 6:11:23 PM EDT
Quoted:
What are my options? Off the top of my head, there's MP-5 variants, the MPX, and the Calico? What else? does the Calico suppress well with the ejection port on the bottom?
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CZ EVO 3 S1 - $799.00 w/free ship at PSA.

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:11:23 PM EDT
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CZ EVO 3 S1 - $799.00 w/free ship at PSA.

https://youtu.be/8XAYsYwZGxI
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Quoted:
What are my options? Off the top of my head, there's MP-5 variants, the MPX, and the Calico? What else? does the Calico suppress well with the ejection port on the bottom?


CZ EVO 3 S1 - $799.00 w/free ship at PSA.

https://youtu.be/8XAYsYwZGxI


I thought the Evo was straight blowback, no delay involved other than bolt mass inertia.

Link Posted: 6/27/2015 7:36:36 PM EDT
Quoted:
What are my options? Off the top of my head, there's MP-5 variants, the MPX, and the Calico? What else? does the Calico suppress well with the ejection port on the bottom?
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SIG MPX is not a delayed blowback unless you know something I don't.  It's piston-operated, locked bolt.
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 8:11:12 PM EDT
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SIG MPX is not a delayed blowback unless you know something I don't.  It's piston-operated, locked bolt.
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What are my options? Off the top of my head, there's MP-5 variants, the MPX, and the Calico? What else? does the Calico suppress well with the ejection port on the bottom?

SIG MPX is not a delayed blowback unless you know something I don't.  It's piston-operated, locked bolt.


Exactly
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 8:29:48 PM EDT
We narrowed that down quick how about this. Other than the HK roller guns what is delayed blowback
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 9:00:11 PM EDT

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We narrowed that down quick how about this. Other than the HK roller guns what is delayed blowback
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demro_TAC-1



 



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danuvia_43M_submachine_gun










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNAB-43
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 10:26:16 PM EDT
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Quoted:
We narrowed that down quick how about this. Other than the HK roller guns what is delayed blowback
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demro_TAC-1
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danuvia_43M_submachine_gun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNAB-43

Forgot the SIG MKMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MKMO_submachine-gun
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 10:40:32 PM EDT
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SIG MPX is not a delayed blowback unless you know something I don't.  It's piston-operated, locked bolt.
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Sorry, I worded that poorly. I'm interested in delayed blowback, locked bolts, etc, but not straight blowback as they suppress the poorest.

What are your suggestions?
Link Posted: 6/27/2015 11:00:46 PM EDT
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Sorry, I worded that poorly. I'm interested in delayed blowback, locked bolts, etc, but not straight blowback as they suppress the poorest.

What are your suggestions?
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SIG MPX is not a delayed blowback unless you know something I don't.  It's piston-operated, locked bolt.


Sorry, I worded that poorly. I'm interested in delayed blowback, locked bolts, etc, but not straight blowback as they suppress the poorest.

What are your suggestions?

If you have the money, get an MPX and SBR it.  Remember, subsonic isn't necessarily subsonic from a 16" barrel.

If you want an MPX Alternative, you'll pay about as much for an MP5 Clone.  You can also consider a cheaper Vector Uzi.  The heavy bolt mass makes it decent to suppress, though it is a loud gun overall.
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 3:23:51 AM EDT

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Quoted:

We narrowed that down quick how about this. Other than the HK roller guns what is delayed blowback
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demro_TAC-1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danuvia_43M_submachine_gun



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FNAB-43


Forgot the SIG MKMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MKMO_submachine-gun




 
That is neat!
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 3:45:28 AM EDT
Get the MPX
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 8:06:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 8:17:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 5:24:29 PM EDT
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Picture taken from this link: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/lwrc-shows-off-smg-45/
That link says it is piston but I was there at the Shot Show also and was told that it is NOT piston operated.  I was told that the barrel moves with the recoil.  
I was then concerned with suppressor usage and went back to ask the guy (I think he was one of the designers).  He said the barrel has the stationary sleeve at the muzzle and the suppressor would attach to that so the weight would not affect the operation.
He also said it WOULD work with a RDIAS.....
First offering would be .45 ACP and later other calibers...maybe.
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Picture taken from this link: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/lwrc-shows-off-smg-45/
That link says it is piston but I was there at the Shot Show also and was told that it is NOT piston operated.  I was told that the barrel moves with the recoil.  
I was then concerned with suppressor usage and went back to ask the guy (I think he was one of the designers).  He said the barrel has the stationary sleeve at the muzzle and the suppressor would attach to that so the weight would not affect the operation.
He also said it WOULD work with a RDIAS.....
First offering would be .45 ACP and later other calibers...maybe.

It appears from the article you linked that this is a piston-delayed action... so H&K P7 style.  Good system for 45 and would probably be self-regulating for light or heavy loads.

The compact submachine gun uses almost 100% ambidextrous controls, ... existing UMP magazines, and a nifty piston delayed operating system to cycle the gun.


Link Posted: 6/28/2015 5:36:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/28/2015 7:15:01 PM EDT
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As mentioned, according to one of the guys at the LWRC boot from the Shot Show it is NOT piston operated unlike what the article states.  I asked if I could see the internals and was declined that request.

The HK P7 is gas operated and has a fixed barrel while the new LWRC has a moving barrel and was specifically told it was NOT piston operated so not sure how you came to that conclusion.....anyways it is pretty much vaporware at this time and I'm suspecting the POF PSG will be available before the LWRC will be.
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I beg to differ on both the highlighted points.  First, the HK P7 is most definitely NOT gas operated.  It is BLOWBACK operated.  There is a piston, yes, but it works in reverse.  It slows the slide down.  The article says the P7 PSG operates on a piston-delayed blowback... therefore the same principle as the P7.  May be a different incarnation, but both are still just delayed blowback.

As for the 'moving barrel' comment.  It is possible that a moving barrel can be gas delayed.  Some moving barrels like the MG42 are gas BOOSTED.  It would be possible to have this work in reverse, I suppose.

Link Posted: 6/29/2015 2:36:14 AM EDT
The POF is blow back with a gas vent.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 9:13:13 AM EDT
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The POF is blow back with a gas vent.
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What does that mean and how do you know that?
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 9:41:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:22:34 AM EDT
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Ahh..ok..I see that now. Thanks

I don't see mention of the P7 in the article I referenced.  Are you looking at a different article?
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There is a piston, yes, but it works in reverse.  It slows the slide down.  

Ahh..ok..I see that now. Thanks

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The article says the P7 operates on a piston-delayed blowback... therefore the same principle as the P7.  May be a different incarnation, but both are still just delayed blowback.
I don't see mention of the P7 in the article I referenced.  Are you looking at a different article?

Mis-typed.  I meant the PSG.  I'll fix it.  The P7 is gas-delayed blowback, so that is why I mentioned it.  It would be the most common gun of that type people would be able to identify with and the only one I've owned.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 10:32:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 4:47:09 PM EDT
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So you say that the POF PSG is gas-delayed blowback?  Is that documented anywhere online?
Thanks
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I have no friggin clue.  The article linked says gas-delayed blowback.  Is it the LWRC gun that's gas delayed?

ETA, oh, I see what you did.  You linked the article on the LWRC and then you put pictures and a video grab below that link for the PSG.  It's The LWRC that's gas-delayed blowback.  For the PSG to be gas-operated, there needs to be a locking system.  I see no locking system.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:00:58 PM EDT
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I have no friggin clue.  The article linked says gas-delayed blowback.  Is it the LWRC gun that's gas delayed?

ETA, oh, I see what you did.  You linked the article on the LWRC and then you put pictures and a video grab below that link for the PSG.  It's The LWRC that's gas-delayed blowback.  For the PSG to be gas-operated, there needs to be a locking system.  I see no locking system.
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So you say that the POF PSG is gas-delayed blowback?  Is that documented anywhere online?
Thanks

I have no friggin clue.  The article linked says gas-delayed blowback.  Is it the LWRC gun that's gas delayed?

ETA, oh, I see what you did.  You linked the article on the LWRC and then you put pictures and a video grab below that link for the PSG.  It's The LWRC that's gas-delayed blowback.  For the PSG to be gas-operated, there needs to be a locking system.  I see no locking system.


The PSG is straight blowback, but with a lighter carrier and a gas vent to reduce pressure and slow down the bolt.  It doesn't seem like it would be the optimal system to try to suppress unless you shoot super light loads and shut off the gas vent.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:13:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 5:14:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 6:33:25 PM EDT
Is the blowback really that much louder? The quietest 9mm suppressed gun I've ever heard was an integral Suomi KP31 which is direct blowback. All you could hear was the bullet impact and the magazine feeding. You didn't even really hear the bolt slapping because they've got that funky air valve bolt buffer that cushions the bolt both ways. Lit a fire under me to get my Suomi's barrel extended and threaded.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 7:48:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:19:31 PM EDT
Anyone have experience with the Calico, suppressed or otherwise? Same action as an MP-5 and ejecting out the bottom sound like good traits for a suppressor.
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:41:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2015 8:56:01 PM EDT

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Do you know that for a fact or just basing that on their cartoon video?  If you are right, that would be disappointing.

 
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The PSG is straight blowback, but with a lighter carrier and a gas vent to reduce pressure and slow down the bolt.
Do you know that for a fact or just basing that on their cartoon video?  If you are right, that would be disappointing.

 
They said on Facebook that is was blowback with a gas vent. There is no locking system.

 
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:01:45 AM EDT
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They said on Facebook that is was blowback with a gas vent. There is no locking system.  
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The PSG is straight blowback, but with a lighter carrier and a gas vent to reduce pressure and slow down the bolt.
Do you know that for a fact or just basing that on their cartoon video?  If you are right, that would be disappointing.
 
They said on Facebook that is was blowback with a gas vent. There is no locking system.  

They might be holding back.  There are three reasons I can think of to drill a hole in the barrel:
1) to operate a piston either forward or reverse (as in the HK P7 which I obviously have some wishful thinking for)
2) to slow the bullet so that supersonic ammo will go subsonic as in many integrally suppressed guns
3) to counteract recoil as in MagNaPorting, muzzle brakes, etc

There are a few other obscure reasons I can think of, but none have been in weapons before.  I do not know everything and I would get REALLY excited if something surprised me.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 10:43:13 AM EDT
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Anyone have experience with the Calico, suppressed or otherwise? Same action as an MP-5 and ejecting out the bottom sound like good traits for a suppressor.
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FWIW I have a Calico M-900 9mm carbine I've owned for 25 years. Impulse purchased it in 1990 in my youth.

It had reliability problems when purchased. Calico updated the magazine springs in 1991 or 1992 and that fixed it.

Later it broke a firing pin. Calico changed that out for free. Calico was still in CA at the time. In my opinion the bolt is not really user serviceable.

Both times the carbine was sent back to Calico the customer service was great. That was the 1990's though.

Since then it runs 100% using 50 round mags. My 100 rounders don't seem to be as reliable. The 50 round mags, when full and attached, seem to give the carbine the right balance. The 50 round mags fit in USMC Fireforce mag pouches designed for two M16 mags.

Mine still has its original early bolt and lower housing. As long as they function I will stick with those parts.

Calico redesigned the bolt and firing mechanism at one point. They sell an update bolt package that includes the new bolt, lower housing and one 50 rd mag for about $460. The Liberty series Calicos come with those updated parts already installed.

You have to wind up the mags to apply spring tension. 10 handle revolutions for 50 rd. mags. 23 turns for 100 rd. mags

Present day - As long as I use the 50 rd mag and 9mm ammo with hard primers it functions 100% - feeds, fires and ejects fine.

Remington UMC ammo is a no go. PPU, Winchester and American Eagle are good to go.

Recoil is straight back and very light. It reminds me of a very long nail gun. The carbine is very accurate.

The struts on the stock are hollow. It seems like they would easily bend under hard use. Aside from that the carbine seems rugged enough.

Once mine got sorted out it became some serious fun - it always puts a smile on the face of whoever I let shoot it. The brass catcher works great and has never inhibited function. The controls are well thought out. The iron sights are great - the front post adjusts similar to an M1 Garand.

I've given serious consideration to a suppressor and SBR status to make mine into a suppressed M960 clone with the 6" pistol length barrel. Thing is I've never seen an M960 hand guard for sale and Calico doesn't list them on their website.

The other choice is use the existing handguard and make it a 10" barrel. The barrel is pressed in into the aluminum receiver and held into place with two large roll pins so it looks like it might be easy to press out (AK barrel removal tool might work) and send it for threading.

If I proceed with the project I plan to test 147 grain and 158 grain 9mm ammo to make sure it would function with those before filing a Form 1.

The suppressed SBR project is a lower priority compared to other NFA goals I have.

I've only seen one photo of a Calico 9mm firearm with a suppressor and I can't identify the brand of the suppressor in that photo.
I think member -JC- owns it - iirc.

I haven't fired any of the more modern Calicos. If I were to buy a used 9mm Calico I would want to fire 50 rounds through it first or see a video of that particular Calico shooting 50 rounds reliably before I'd commit to a purchase.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:25:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 11:36:49 AM EDT
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All this talk got me looking at the MPX again.  I was at the Shot Show this year and the guy in the Sig booth told me that AR fire control was NOT interchangeable only the grip was....but it appears he is wrong as there are Youtube videos with people putting the Tac Fire AR trigger in the MPX.  I'll have to do some more research but looking at all the options, I think I like this one the best so far.  
Anyone know of any issues?  Looks like someone had some issues with the hammer/trigger pins walking out but that could be fixed with maybe some KNS pins if they are the same as an AR.
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The MPX has a polymer hammer block as part of the factory trigger group, it seems the bolt speed may be higher than in an AR and the concern was that it might damage the trigger group.  several owners have swapped triggers without issue, while others have had hammer follow and such.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 12:57:04 PM EDT
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All this talk got me looking at the MPX again.  I was at the Shot Show this year and the guy in the Sig booth told me that AR fire control was NOT interchangeable only the grip was....but it appears he is wrong as there are Youtube videos with people putting the Tac Fire AR trigger in the MPX.  I'll have to do some more research but looking at all the options, I think I like this one the best so far.  
Anyone know of any issues?  Looks like someone had some issues with the hammer/trigger pins walking out but that could be fixed with maybe some KNS pins if they are the same as an AR.
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Sig has been quoted as saying that swapping the trigger will void the warranty, so if you break anything either you're on your own or you need to be able to sneakily replace the OEM trigger without leaving evidence before sending it in. If/when I get an MPX (I'm still waiting on my Evo stock) I plan on switching to my standard SSA-E, but it's something to keep in mind.
Link Posted: 6/30/2015 4:19:21 PM EDT
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Sig has been quoted as saying that swapping the trigger will void the warranty, so if you break anything either you're on your own or you need to be able to sneakily replace the OEM trigger without leaving evidence before sending it in. If/when I get an MPX (I'm still waiting on my Evo stock) I plan on switching to my standard SSA-E, but it's something to keep in mind.
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All this talk got me looking at the MPX again.  I was at the Shot Show this year and the guy in the Sig booth told me that AR fire control was NOT interchangeable only the grip was....but it appears he is wrong as there are Youtube videos with people putting the Tac Fire AR trigger in the MPX.  I'll have to do some more research but looking at all the options, I think I like this one the best so far.  
Anyone know of any issues?  Looks like someone had some issues with the hammer/trigger pins walking out but that could be fixed with maybe some KNS pins if they are the same as an AR.

Sig has been quoted as saying that swapping the trigger will void the warranty, so if you break anything either you're on your own or you need to be able to sneakily replace the OEM trigger without leaving evidence before sending it in. If/when I get an MPX (I'm still waiting on my Evo stock) I plan on switching to my standard SSA-E, but it's something to keep in mind.

So their whole advertising theme of being AR compatible seems misleading...
Link Posted: 7/1/2015 9:38:03 AM EDT
Agreed.  The goods news is that Geissle has responded to the issue:
HK guns also have the bridge. High impulse guns will toss the hammer back violently so that the hammer will hit the disconnector. By repeatedly striking the disconnector it will actually fracture over time. As a trigger similar to the Sig the ALG trigger may have this problem. However, the Geissele triggers are designed so that the bridge is not needed and the hi velocity of the bolt carrier will not effect it. And even if there was a problem Geissele's golden warrenty is always there to help you out.
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Which covers the trigger in the event of an issue, assuming it doesn't damage the gun when/if it fails.

The only other drawbacks to the MPX current is the issue with the CH chipping away at the rear corners of the upper receiver if you let it slam home and the lack of a short barreled K variant right now.  I'm planning to pick one up, but I'm fighting hard to wait for the K model.
Link Posted: 7/1/2015 10:08:35 AM EDT
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All this talk got me looking at the MPX again.  I was at the Shot Show this year and the guy in the Sig booth told me that AR fire control was NOT interchangeable only the grip was....but it appears he is wrong as there are Youtube videos with people putting the Tac Fire AR trigger in the MPX.  I'll have to do some more research but looking at all the options, I think I like this one the best so far.  
Anyone know of any issues?  Looks like someone had some issues with the hammer/trigger pins walking out but that could be fixed with maybe some KNS pins if they are the same as an AR.
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Good write up on the MPX Trigger:  http://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2015/06/will-upgrading-the-sig-sauer-mpx-to-an-ar-15-trigger-void-your-warranty/
Link Posted: 7/1/2015 10:08:38 AM EDT
Any ETA on the POF guns?
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