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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/28/2005 2:14:09 AM EDT
Does anyone have a good source for the R33 extended bolt stop or would you all recommend the Smith (sold by Fulton) over the Rooster. Any suggestions greatly appreciated!
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:07:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 6:13:45 AM EDT by H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted By OhioGunNut:
Does anyone have a good source for the R33 extended bolt stop or would you all recommend the Smith (sold by Fulton) over the Rooster. Any suggestions greatly appreciated!



Get the SEI EBS
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 9:34:30 AM EDT
Brownells has it listed, but seem to always be out of stock. If you look around you can probably find Rooster33's homepage, and he sells them direct.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 5:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 5:03:25 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:39:21 PM EDT
does this allow the bolt to be released like an AR15?
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 6:41:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TraumaLevel1:
does this allow the bolt to be released like an AR15?



Yes it does. I have the rooster release and it works great. Bought it direct a while back.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 1:06:14 AM EDT
Thank you for the help!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 3:12:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:24:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 2:55:47 PM EDT by mach6]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck


==============
There has been much discussion on the utility of this device at the user level...by that I mean at the official end-user level. In this case, the USN material developers in Coronado and at Crane-NSWC. The issue SEI EBS has proven to be of definite value when operating in a cold, wet environment (e.g.when fingers are numb from exposure.). It is in fact USGI, a component item of the new USN MK14 Mod O and the forthcoming USAF MK 14 Variant, thus...no need for quotation marks. It's in the system. It will also carry it's own NSN through Defense Supply Center Columbus (DSCC) in the coming weeks. I know, I just ordered a boatload for a deploying unit's M14s.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:49:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck



I have always done my reloads with my left hand. Handgun, AR, M1A I always use my support hand. That way I can keep the rifle on target and my firing hand in position. Before I had the Rooster latch I just reached under rifle to work the action. I still do for malfunction drills. The Rooster makes emergency reloads that much sweeter. Old mag out, new mag in, hit the extended catch. I can keep a target in my sights the whole time and be ready to fire as soon as the bolt slams home.
What would the advantage be to reloading with the right hand?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:54:52 AM EDT
I've wanted one, and still might get one but I am still stuck on "Old School" M-14 technique

I guess I gotta get with the times these days
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:55:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:38:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:15:17 PM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I hear this nonsense all the time and challange folks to do it, not just talk about it. I know, I know, the technique is the darling of the "carbine class" folks.

How the heck can you keep your rifle on target only supporting it with your trigger finger hand. Even on the range. Are you standing? Why? Are the targets shooting back? You should be flat on the ground if you can get there. Now how ya going to change magazines with your support hand? Do you guys always rest the rifle on saw horses?

All together how: Everyone grab their M14 and hold it their shoulder with just the trigger finger hand. Hold it. Remember you have to keep it pointed at the target, or so I'm told. Still holding it there? Don't be the first one to drop your's! Still holding it?

M4 Carbine is hard enough and it weighs a lot less than the M14.

-- Chuck



Yes, if using both hands I do reload this way every time. Standing, kneeling, crouching, prone... never had a problem. I also practice one-handed shooting, multiple presentations, and reloads with my M1A. Both left and right handed, and sometimes while moving. Granted the M14 is no lightweight, but it's no monster either
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 1:43:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck




While I heartily agree with this post, I knew when I read it that it was gonna attract some "attention" from certain people.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:22:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck



Ummmm

Errrr....


I NEVER reload with my right hand.
Period
Why should I take my rifle out of the fight?

Ummm....
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:28:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I hear this nonsense all the time and challange folks to do it, not just talk about it. I know, I know, the technique is the darling of the "carbine class" folks.

How the heck can you keep your rifle on target only supporting it with your trigger finger hand. Even on the range. Are you standing? Why? Are the targets shooting back? You should be flat on the ground if you can get there. Now how ya going to change magazines with your support hand? Do you guys always rest the rifle on saw horses?

All together how: Everyone grab their M14 and hold it their shoulder with just the trigger finger hand. Hold it. Remember you have to keep it pointed at the target, or so I'm told. Still holding it there? Don't be the first one to drop your's! Still holding it?

M4 Carbine is hard enough and it weighs a lot less than the M14.

-- Chuck




Actually I just did your drill... in the time it took to read it, my sights wavered 1/4 inch.
What exactly is your point?

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 7:41:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I hear this nonsense all the time and challange folks to do it, not just talk about it. I know, I know, the technique is the darling of the "carbine class" folks.

How the heck can you keep your rifle on target only supporting it with your trigger finger hand. Even on the range. Are you standing? Why? Are the targets shooting back? You should be flat on the ground if you can get there. Now how ya going to change magazines with your support hand? Do you guys always rest the rifle on saw horses?

All together how: Everyone grab their M14 and hold it their shoulder with just the trigger finger hand. Hold it. Remember you have to keep it pointed at the target, or so I'm told. Still holding it there? Don't be the first one to drop your's! Still holding it?

M4 Carbine is hard enough and it weighs a lot less than the M14.

-- Chuck



I never take my right hand off of the rifle when I reload...........I learned your left hand is for magazine changes ....................Maybe those Navy GMG's were full of shit when they tought us
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:04:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 3:09:52 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:07:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:13:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck



Ummmm

Errrr....


I NEVER reload with my right hand.
Period
Why should I take my rifle out of the fight?

Ummm....



Errrr.........

Ummmm

You're reloading. 'Bout a 99% chance your rifle is already temporarily out of the fight.



Now let's all watch this thread continur spiraling into a "my reload technique is right" pissing match


Bottom line, an "incorrect" technique that's well practiced and second nature is head and shoulders above that awesome, high speed low drag shit you read about last week in SWAT magazine and never tried.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:26:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:

Originally Posted By FedGunner:

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck



Ummmm

Errrr....


I NEVER reload with my right hand.
Period
Why should I take my rifle out of the fight?

Ummm....



Errrr.........

Ummmm

You're reloading. 'Bout a 99% chance your rifle is already temporarily out of the fight.



Now let's all watch this thread continur spiraling into a "my reload technique is right" pissing match


Bottom line, an "incorrect" technique that's well practiced and second nature is head and shoulders above that awesome, high speed low drag shit you read about last week in SWAT magazine and never tried.



There is no need for this thread to turn into a pissing match. I never said, “my way is the only way”, nor did I learn any of the techniques I use from SWAT magazine.
I replied to Chucks post because it made no sense to me. He states that he fails to see the benefits of the Extended latch, mainly due to the fact that reloads are “normally” done with the right hand. Now, if you reload with the right hand I can see how the device would be less than thrilling to you, however, Chucks post was the first time I have ever heard of someone regularly reloading with the strong side hand. In the service we reloaded with the support hand, everyone I know that is current SWAT, LEO or Military reloads with the support hand; my current instructor reloads this same way. If you are loading with the support hand this device is great.
I was not trying to say what I do is right and what you do is wrong, just trying to point out the benefits of the Rooster latch, and figure out what would make reloading with the strong hand desirable.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:32:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 5:33:38 AM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By mach6:

Originally Posted By Chuck:
I have the Smith's "USGI" extended stop on one of my M14s. Still not sure the benefit of the device. Magazine changes are normally done with the right hand. Insert the new magazine and cycle the oprod with the same hand. Changing hands to slap the extended bolt stop takes more time.

Impresses the Range Rangers no end, though.

-- Chuck


==============
There has been much discussion on the utility of this device at the user level...by that I mean at the official end-user level. In this case, the USN material developers in Coronado and at Crane-NSWC. The issue SEI EBS has proven to be of definite value when operating in a cold, wet environment (e.g.when fingers are number from exposure.). It is in fact USGI, a component item of the new USN MK14 Mod O and the forthcoming USAF MK 14 Variant, thus...no need for quotation marks. It's in the system. It will also carry it's own NSN through Defense Supply Center Columbus (DSCC) in the coming weeks. I know, I just ordered a boatload for a deploying unit's M14s.



I would think that this reasoning could be extended to include any time heavy gloves were worn, or any time fine motor skills/tactile sensitivity was degraded. That being the case, I would think the Rooster, with its raised bars at either end, would be somewhat superior in this regard.



The Rooster works great for not only releasing the bolt, but locking it back as well. And trust me, living in MN I have endless opportunities to manipulate my rifle in cold conditions with heavy gloves on. You make a good point.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:47:00 AM EDT
QuinlanV, I wasn't replying to your post, no need to explain nothin' to me.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:16:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:15:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 5:16:13 PM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
Quinlin --

Please show me how a "support hand" reload is done with the M14 rifle. A link, specifically showing the M14, will be fine. I'd especially like to see this trick from a prone position or other position where there's nothing to support the weight of the rifle other than the trigger hand. I've no doubt a few folks can do this. As a general technique, however, it's just Ninja talk and won't work.

Easy with a pistol or the M4 Carbine.

-- Chuck



Well Chuck, I wish we could get out to the range together as that would be the best way to show you.
Perhaps you are perceiving it as difficult because of how you present the weapon. If you use a long gun in a more traditional military bladed stance, I could see how holding the rifle up may be difficult. From a modern squared up stance it is quite easy. Elbows down and tucked in there is plenty of support for the dominant hand alone to hold/manipulate the weapon. In a prone position the rifle is supported by being pressed against the shoulder as well as being supported by the strong side arm. On top of that the strong side arm is resting on the deck, so I am not sure why you would perceive it "unsupported".
It is not a "trick" to reload with the support hand. I think you will find in modern training it is the standard. I discussed this with a couple vets today, one of which started his military career with an M14 and still shoots one to this day. They all reload with the support hand.
If I get a chance to shoot some vid of reloads from multiple positions as well as tactical reloads, I will do so.
Perhaps footage of an "El Diablo" drill would help make sense of the technique for you. 3 mags loaded with 6 rounds each, fired into center mass of a silhouette target from 18 yards and must be completed in under 18 seconds. 6 rounds standing, 6 rounds kneeling, and 6 rounds prone with an emergency reload between each string of shots. And for good measure throw in a reload from prone at the end of the drill. My time on this drill is usually between 12 and 14 seconds.
Ninja talk? Hardly


Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:34:16 PM EDT

My average time on this drill is between 12 and 14 seconds.


That would be 13 seconds...

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:19:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 6:32:36 PM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By varoadking:

My average time on this drill is between 12 and 14 seconds.

That would be 13 seconds...



I edited it to read a little more clearly now Thanks for the useless sarcasm. Anything useful to add that pertains to the actual subject matter?

Anyway, I couldn't find any pics of reloads, but I will see what I can put together for you Chuck.
Here are a old couple pics I found with my rifle.
Me shooting on the move. Notice that the elbows are tucked in. This provides some extra support for the strong side arm and may help explain why I never notice the heft of my 9.5 pound rifle.


And here is a pic of Defensive Edge head instructor Greg Sullivan firing it in "rice paddy prone".
Notice the support that the strong side arm has. Also notice that in both pics the support hand is in a great position to strip out an empty mag.


I have found the Rooster latch to be a great improvement to my rifle, and I would wager that the Smith version was created out of a much greater demand than to address the whims of "Range Rangers".
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 1:46:47 PM EDT
Quinn can reload almost as fast as me with my AR.(about2sec longer) I reload my M1A the same way he does, it is not that difficult. We will take some vid next time at class or range session I will also so you can see the average size man do it also. But if we prove it will that be enuff for you?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 2:39:04 PM EDT
WOW!! This thread went way off of where it started.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:48:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OhioGunNut:
WOW!! This thread went way off of where it started.



I know, sorry It went from where to get a Rooster latch to defending it's usefulness. Last I heard from Brownells is they are taking about 4-6 new orders for everyone they fill. I got mine directly from the man himself in Canada, but it seems like he is trying to move on to distributors in the US. Whamo Camo sometimes has a few, but did not last I checked.
It is worth the wait to get it. You're going to love it
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:10:21 AM EDT
I dropped him an Email last week, but have yet to get any response back. Anyone find someone how is stocking the R33's?


As for how I reload, I drop the rifle sights down into the mud, wedge a mag into my ass checks, and just squat down on the it to insert not only the mag into the rifle, but allows me to drive my piles back in as the same time. I dare anyone to top that for reload/medical efficiency.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:45:31 AM EDT
Still waiting for my 4 from Brownells
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 10:06:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 10:07:33 AM EDT by QuinlanV]

Originally Posted By Dano523:

As for how I reload, I drop the rifle sights down into the mud, wedge a mag into my ass checks, and just squat down on the it to insert not only the mag into the rifle, but allows me to drive my piles back in as the same time. I dare anyone to top that for reload/medical efficiency.



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