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Posted: 9/18/2004 1:22:36 PM EDT
[#1]
No word and I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Posted: 9/23/2004 10:16:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Oops! Wrong thread.
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Posted: 9/23/2004 10:43:43 PM EDT
[#4]
1) Colt is suing them for producing a copycat product without paying royalties to Colt... Expect an injunction prohibiting production... 2) HK does NOT sell rifles to US Civillians anymore... The SL8 and USC are being discontinued, and that will be 'it'... So go ahead and get a Bushmaster... The true AR design is far superior to the bastardized HK product anyway.... |
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Posted: 9/24/2004 9:38:17 AM EDT
[#5]
I spoke to an HK rep the other day.
The HK M4 copies and uppers will only be for LEO's I was as bummed as you. |
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Posted: 9/24/2004 12:43:12 PM EDT
[#6]
cris,
but it depends on the dealer, it is up to him to sell the upper to whom ever. I am getting several uppers. I have seen the latest version, the rail version looks GOOOOOOOD. |
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Posted: 9/24/2004 5:06:42 PM EDT
[#7]
i hope you're a dealer that likes helping out the little non leo folk. |
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Posted: 9/24/2004 5:39:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Cool, so you've shot one and run it through it's tests? How was it? |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 7:23:47 AM EDT
[#9]
I shot the gun and it is very sweet to shoot. the gas piston makes the gun shoot like a SIG 551 or HK G36. it is a complete different feel. it also slow down the cyclic rate to around 700 RPM. very accurate to the range we were balsting at.
height about the same as the standard short barrel M4 with a semi heavy profile barrel. handle the same. If you think gas piston is God's answer, then this is your E ticket ride. I am not a HK dealer, but I think I am able to secure a few for my own pleasure. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 9:16:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Does anyone have photo's of the H&K M4 that they can post?
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Posted: 9/27/2004 11:17:45 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 9/28/2004 11:04:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Chen,
You are right of course, we will just have to see what the dealers do when they hit the shelves. Look for them sometime in late March/April I was told. |
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Posted: 9/29/2004 11:08:51 AM EDT
[#13]
I would love to have one of these, but like a couple of other guys posted it doesnt sound good for civilians getting their hands on them.
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Posted: 10/3/2004 9:54:42 AM EDT
[#14]
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:27:28 AM EDT
[#15]
Well put my friend, well put. Its nice to finally see a realistic person here on the HK M4 and XM8. We are a rare breed. Welcome to the boards! |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:47:57 AM EDT
[#16]
1) You're so full of shit I can smell you from here. I've also highlited it in red... 2) The G-36 action has NOTHING to do with the AK47. Nothing AT ALL... It is a short-stroke floating piston design, and has more in common with the M-14 or Steyr AUG than the AK. 3) HK weapons were originally derived from such famous German products as the MG-42 and StG-44. They have NOTHING AT ALL in common with the AK. In fact, HK's most famous products, the 91-series weapons (G-3, MP series, HK5x series, HK9x series) use a BLOWBACK gas system (roller-delayed-blowback, aka 'Roller Lock'), and DO NOT HAVE A PISTON DRIVEN ACTION. 2) There is no problem with M16 or M4 reliability. Apart from the early days where the Army issued the wrong powder, didn't issue cleaning kits, and told troops the M16 was self cleaning, it has been sufficiently reliable for military use. This means a M16 will not jam from lack of cleaning unless the soldier who's operating it is extremely negligent with their cleaning regimen... The gun can fire 6,000-7,000 rounds between cleanings easily, without the inferior accuracy and other functional issues that come from the gas-piston design... 3) Any weapon that perports to be a M4 or M16 and DOES NOT have direct-impingement is an inferior bastardization. The direct-gas system is what makes the M16 what it is. 4) If the M16 is in such need of improvement, How come the special forces of so many countries with supposedly 'wonderful' piston-driven rifles - INCLUDING THE LAST GUN THAT H&K TRIED TO 'IMPROVE', THE SA80A2 (although the (piston-operated) SA80 was a POS before HK touched it, it is still a POS today) go out of their way to aquire and use M4s Yeah, that's right... The M4 is the most popular special-forces weapon in countries that use 5.56mm... Oh, and as for the 'wonderful' AK-derived Galil? Israel has removed them from service except for with their 3rd-line troops, the Israeli equivalent of our National Guard. Weight and accuracy issues were the main reasons... Everyone else gets M16-pattern weapons, and would continue to recieve them if internal politics hadn't forced them to 'Buy Local', ergo Tavor (Which is NOT based on the AK system, although I believe it is a piston design)... The Izzys never complained about M16 reliability, and they live/fight in the desert, too... |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:55:42 AM EDT
[#17]
 Another one who just takes whatever he's fed... The sky is green, RemPss... What color is the sky? RemPss: Green Sir! |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 3:53:37 PM EDT
[#18]
ALl the HK M4's are in safes where they belong, because they are gonna cost too damn much when they hit the market to be worth buying.
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Posted: 10/3/2004 8:42:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Heard about $1500... |
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Posted: 10/3/2004 11:27:17 PM EDT
[#20]
WOW! $1,500 for just an upper!
nf9648: Well, I guess if you want to play with the big boys, you're gonna have to ante up, for me I'm out. Too rich for my blood, I'm not a die-hard HK fan. |
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Posted: 10/4/2004 7:22:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Oh boy, here it comes...... Good first post. Welcome....and watch your back from the Colt Mafia...  
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:01:05 AM EDT
[#22]
I forgot to show the smilie faces...sorry. |
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:03:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Personally I feel a new upper for the AmericanRifle is a good thing no matter who or what made it. The M16/AR blows dirty gas back into the bolt. It makes a mess. Why not have an upper that works differently?
For 'good' soldiers, law enforcement, and citizens who clean their weapons all the time it really does not matter. Since after a few hundred rounds you clean it. What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing. Besides, Olympic and ZM already make uppers that are configured like this. The fact that the "prestigious" HK want to make M16/AR's is a compliment to any American and Mr. Stoener himself. hug.gif |
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Posted: 10/4/2004 3:43:02 PM EDT
[#24]
This person you describe is a filthy, non-disciplined slob who shouldnt be around a rifle in the first place. Sounds like someone who lacks the will to live if he is in a combat environment. Im proud to say no soldier under me has been allowed to do anything like that. 
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Posted: 10/4/2004 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Olympic and ZM do it 'right' Their systems HAVE NO PISTON, and simply moves the recoil spring forward to allow for a folding stock... Both are still direct gas. The difference is that ZM places their recoil spring around the gas tube, Olympic has a 'recoil spring tube' above the normal gas tube, which looks like a 'piston gas tube' but is not connected to gas.... So if you want a folder, that works... Otherwise, there's no reason... And the 'dirty gas' thing is BS -> it doesn't cause any problems, your gun will jam from environmental conditions LONG before it jams from 'carbon fouling'... We're talking 5,000-6,000 rounds here... And no professional is going to go that long without taking the 5-10 minutes (7 on average) to do the quick field cleaning needed to maintain reliable function... 'Dirty gas in the upper' contributing to an AR jamming is like saying the 416 or M14 will jam from 'dirty gas in the gas tube' binding the free-floating piston (it just degrades accuracy if you don't clean the gas system on a floating-piston weapon, a/o causing a jam)... |
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Posted: 10/4/2004 9:25:41 PM EDT
[#26]
......ohh brother are you off big time 
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Posted: 10/5/2004 8:22:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Okay...everyone, stop the argueing. Whenever we get into a thread about HK's XM8 or M4 it turns out like this.
I'd like to make the following statements. 1. The HK M4 beats the Colt M4 in relieablity. 2. The HK XM8 beats the Colt M4 in relieability. 3. The HK M4 and XM8 are easier to clean and maintain than the Colt M4. 4. The HK M4 and XM8 have a far superior design than that of the Colt M4. 5. The HK M4 and XM8 can handle more rounds between cleanings than the entire service life of the Colt M4. 6. The gas short-stroke piston is a far superior design than the direct gas blowback design. No one can honestly sit here and say the Colt M4 or M16 is more relieable than the HK M4 or XM8. You may say it but deep down you know that simply is not true. It isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. I understand that you AR15 guys are pissed at HK because their are going make the M16 and M4 obsolete but face the facts, the HK's are both MUCH better systems. So get off of your high horses and accept it. This was suppose to be a post about the availability of the HK M4 Uppers now that the AWB has ended. It is not a discussion about which one is better (because deep down, we all know the answer). |
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Posted: 10/6/2004 3:42:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Why do I only get 600 hundred to 800 hundred rounds out of my colt AR's befor they jam? hinking.gif
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Posted: 10/6/2004 6:34:46 AM EDT
[#29]
Military equipment has to be made for the lowest common denominator. You think too highly of soldiers. The fact is, allot of soldiers are simply too lazy to clean their weapons like they should. Right or wrong, it’s just a fact of life. Their NCOs might be just as lazy, or not simply have the time to make sure they do it. However, I fail to see how a gas piston would help reduce stoppages due to sand, dirt, etc. The bolt carrier/upper will still have the same close tolerances and will jam if sand ends up in there. The AK is reliable because it has such loose tolerances. |
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Posted: 10/11/2004 8:05:16 PM EDT
[#30]
I think it's premature to pass judgement on HK's M4's but if they're M4 mags are any indicator they'll be overpriced, shiny, and less-reliable.
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Posted: 10/11/2004 8:29:04 PM EDT
[#31]
That's the Russian way... The US way is to make military equipment for a properly trained professional soldier, and expect your troops to perform well enough to utilize the equipment properly... ALL of our military equipment is designed around the fact that it will be operated by competant professionals, with the presumption that the 'least common denominator' will be shaped up or shipped out... While it may not do well for the few LCDs who stay, it's the reason why less than 100 Marine riflemen can take on 300 enemy 'Least Common Denominators' with AKs & whip them soundly, at a cost of 3 Marines wounded (none severely enough to take them out of the fight).... The AK doesn't have 'loose tolerances', but rather wide clearances. And for all the myth & legend, they jam up tighter than a drum in Iraq, just like any other gun... Don't believe me, ask the guys here who have been responsible for training Iraqi troops, or who's men carried AKs because M4s were not available in quantity... |
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Posted: 10/11/2004 8:38:06 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 10/12/2004 6:41:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Critics, Just accept the fact that:
1. Some of us like the gas piston design and believe it to be superior. 2. Some of us believe HK makes a superior product. 3. This doesn't mean we do not like and appreciate the current AR15 type design. 4. You can argue all day long, the fact is both systems have their drawbacks and advantages. 5. Those of us who appreciate the HK gas piston system AND have hands on experience with HK gas piston rifles (SL8, G36) will not be dissuaded by anything less than hands-on experience with the HKM4. Anything else is a moot point. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 8:30:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Dear Lord...I'm not even going to go back and fix all the things wrong there. The XM8 and HKM4 are far more relieable than the Colt M4...you are just plain ignorant if you think otherwise. XM8 vs M4 Check out the relieablity and service life part...20,000 vs. 8,000...at the cost of a fucking rail for your flashlight! You ignorant POS... In testing the XM8 had more than 8,000 rounds put through it and its still running fine. None of those arguments are debateable. To say that the Colt M4 is just as relieable as the XM8 or HK M4 is just balderdash, AND YOU KNOW IT! I get it though, you guys are pissed that your Colt's are now only 2nd best behind HK. I understand and I know it sucks...but move on. If you truely support our troops, you'll let them adopt the XM8. HK has a much better track record than Colt, my friend. And this won't be the first weapon Colt has been replaced by HK with...need we forget the Mk23 OHWS? Who competed there...oh yeah, Colt and HK...who won...fudge, thats right HK...and guess what...ITS HAPPENING AGAIN! |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 3:02:18 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 10/12/2004 3:13:41 PM EDT
[#36]
There is a better player in the field, but my lips are sealed.
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Posted: 10/12/2004 3:40:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Because you have a defective example of said weapon. How come 1000 to 2000 rounds on mine before I just give up and clean them? |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 3:59:04 PM EDT
[#38]
And the source you cite is H&K sales literature. Not an unbiased source by any stretch. So assuming the literature is true, the M-4 will go 6 thousand rounds between cleanings (which is at least 6 times more than necessary for military operations.) ant the M-8 will go 20,000. You will never be in a situation in the service of the US Military where you will be permitted to go 6,000 rounds, much less 20,000 rounds between cleanings. There will be a limiting factor regardless of which rifle type you are carrying. Either you will introduce enough external fouling or water into the action to where you are forced to clean it to prevent corrosion or your Plt Sgt with threaten you with an Article 15 UCMJ punishment for failure to maintain your weapon. Or the war will end. Not battle, War. 99.99% of all rifles ever issued for combat use have fired less than 6,000 rounds for the entire campaign. Rifles are worn out during training, not combat. They may be damaged in combat but few weapons are worn out thru firing during combat. There is no imaginable scneario where you will fire 6,000 or more rounds in one engagement and not have time to maintain it. The sheer logistics of supplying yourself and your comrades with that quantity of ammo would prevent it if nothing else. It is tantamount to arguing that my AMD2800MP processor will only last 20 years but an Intel P4 2800 will last 80 years. Both exceed the minimum requirments by such a large part that other limiting factors such as dead capacitors on the motherboard or obselence will force me to replace it far before that limit is reached. More practical concerns such as speed and cost would drive my computer purchasing decision. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 5:06:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Theres a HUGE difference between the SL8 and the XM8 there pal. If you read, the crack was pretty much due to user error. Its just the way the full stock receiver was built. HK has fixed the problems though with their new stock structure. XM8 uses a stronger/different materal anyway, so no problems. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 5:09:43 PM EDT
[#40]
I know of a guy who makes a similar system to the HK system for the M4 that is about 1/3 the price of HK's unit. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 6:43:53 PM EDT
[#41]
If you don't tell us we will torture it out of you. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 7:54:32 PM EDT
[#42]
 Go to the website for more great pics. |
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Posted: 10/12/2004 8:23:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Jesus H...You'd trust that over an HK? Would you trust a SW5 over a MP5? |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 5:31:07 AM EDT
[#44]
I dont trust anything I cant afford... |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 7:37:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Yeah, I know about Kurt's system. I've been waiting for him to make it available for some time.
I do believe Kurt is a master craftsman, but he will never be a serious player in the AR market if he doesn't get some kind of mass production going. He is excruciatingly slow. |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 8:25:31 AM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 10/13/2004 9:06:13 AM EDT
[#47]
I served in Iraq, I will stick with my regular old M16A2, you can keep the HK. The most rounds I ever fired in combat was 200 rounds out of my SAW, and I and everyone in my unit cleaned our weapons every night (I was the gunner, I had to clean three weapon systems, SAW, MK-19 and M9) If you truely support our troops, you'd be urging congress to be buying me body armor and armored HUMVEEs, maybe even giving me a pay raise so I am not one of the lowest paid professions on this planet before they would waste a ton of money on a weapon system that we don't need. And, I trained a lot at Camp Williams, UT. I am not special forces, but I did participate training with them (mostly as the opfor armed with simunition rounds). Let me say that the Special Forces guys were some of the baddest, most hardcore, mofos I have ever seen. They trained hard, and could do shit that I wouldn't believe was possible (like get to the third story of a building on the outside, using no ropes or grappling hooks). It usually took four of us armed with simunition uppers to take out one SF guy, our losses were 4 to 1. They all were armed with pistols, saw a lot of SIGs, one or two 1911s, no HK MK23 pistols. These guys could choose what they want and not one carried the "official" pistol of the Special Forces (they all said it was because it was a huge pistol, they all wanted something smaller) |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 11:16:24 AM EDT
[#48]
Dave_A,
Before I go through and defend everything I just said to what you said, let me first ask you an honest question, and the rest of you. What do you honestly have against the XM8 and HKM4? |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 11:27:47 AM EDT
[#49]
I know I am not Dave_A but here goes, It's a solution looking for a problem. The thing I don't like about the XM8 is we need the money for other things. I drove around Iraq and especially Fallujah for a year. I was in an unarmored humvee and for half of the year all I had for protection was a flak vest that's worthless. I was more concerned about armor and other things than to replace the M16A2 that worked fine for us. True, sometimes they jammed. But my unit ran the police acadamy in Ramadi, and we saw some jammed AKs there too. In Iraq, weapons will jam, especially if they are not cleaned (and I don't care what weapon it is, be it the M4, AK, or XM8) What does the XM8 give over the M4 besides the optics (which we can fix easily and more cheaply)? (although I do like the HK grenade launcher that comes with the XM8 better than the M203) |
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Posted: 10/13/2004 2:12:48 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm going to have to disagree there. The XM8 roughly costs $600 w/o optics and $1800 with optics, where as the equivelent M4 costs $900 w/o optics and $2500 with the eqivelent optic set up. Believe me, I agree we need better armor over there too. But I also think it is time to get a more modern platform that doesn't rely on Vietnam era technology. I'd like to make it clear that I have nothing against the M16 and M4, I think they are fine weapons. However, I just feel that the XM8 is a better weapon to be issueing to our troops. In the longer run its going to be cheaper having the M8 than the M4 and in turn the saved money can be put towards something else, ie. armor. |
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, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. 