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Posted: 7/5/2002 7:55:09 PM EST
Just wondering what pistol the finest (SEAL/Delta/Force Recon/S.F.) of our troops are carrying these days? I thought I seen a thread in the past week or so about troops in Afghanistan carrying 1911 .45's?
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 7:59:16 PM EST
The finest they carry is the SIG P226. I have one and I have never had a problem that could be related to anything but a simple mag problem. I also heard the USA would have made it standard issue but the price was a tad bit higher then that of the Beretta.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:07:21 PM EST
The SEAL's carry the Sig Sauer P-226 in 9mm. This is IMO one of the finest combat pistols ever made. It is accurate as hell, is reliable as anything on the planet and has an outstanding trigger pull. I love the Sig's and they are far and away my favorite handgun.

The Delta guys carry some type of 1911 style pistol in .45 ACP. I'm not sure what the particular specs are on these pistols, but you can bet they are nice, mission ready pistols.

Our special operations troops also have an H&K design at their disposal. It is a large pistol chambering the .45 ACP also and from all accounts is a fine combat pistol as well. It is referred to as the SOCOM. I assume it is available to all special forces groups who need it for a particular mission.

This shows that even the most professional of the professionals can't all agree as to what gun is "best". But I think I would be more than comfortable toting around any of these pistols. They are all fine, fine handguns.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:07:47 PM EST
As of right now they are using the M-9, sold domestically as a Beretta 92. I have seen the post that they may soon be carrying the 1911, but nothing yet. Some of the spec ops teams have even been seen carrying two M-9's one on either hip. Probably for CQB.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:14:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 8:14:17 PM EST by Scarecrow]
About the dual M9 subject, for CQB a new PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) needs to be created to replace the handgun completely. The HK PDW is a step in the right direction, but it is still too big. The guys need something small and compact, while able to be select fire, pierce most body armor and be a highly simple weapon.

Any handgun will always be a backup, its not meant to be your primary source of defense or offense.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:14:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Our special operations troops also have an H&K design at their disposal. It is a large pistol chambering the .45 ACP also and from all accounts is a fine combat pistol as well. It is referred to as the SOCOM. I assume it is available to all special forces groups who need it for a particular mission.





SOCOM.... BWAAHAAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!!

SOCOM=Doorstop. Ask any SEAL.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:17:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheFNG:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Our special operations troops also have an H&K design at their disposal. It is a large pistol chambering the .45 ACP also and from all accounts is a fine combat pistol as well. It is referred to as the SOCOM. I assume it is available to all special forces groups who need it for a particular mission.





SOCOM.... BWAAHAAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!!

SOCOM=Doorstop. Ask any SEAL.




Any frogmen online here.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:17:35 PM EST
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:20:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.




AGREED 100%

The SEALS do like their Sigs though.

I have personally seen Sigs shipped NEW with broken parts.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:25:33 PM EST
My brother was a SEAL, he now uses a USP .40c for his carry weapon. Hk weapons are his favorite. I don't know what he carried while a SEAL, but i'm sure you can have a choice.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:27:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.



The only problem with a glock in a combat situation is that if it fails to fire for some reason it does not cycle and the slide must be racked. Granted, if the glock fails to fire it's 99.9% the fault of the ammo, but having to rack the slide and fire again instead of just pulling the trigger again can get you killed. I believe this is the only reason why the Glock didn't pass muster when compared to the Baretta M9 and the Sig 226.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:34:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 8:36:19 PM EST by LTAR15]
hell if it dont fire on the first pull your gonna havta chamber a new round anyway, you gonna pull twice on a dud??
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:36:32 PM EST
A friend of mine had a SIG that the extractor broke on the first time i went shooting with it, not sure how many rounds it broke on, but i was less than 50. On the other hand a local sheriff's deputy told me their Glocks have proven more reliable than even the smith & wesson duty revolvers they once carried, and that according to offical dept records. I think these posts all go to show that there are many fine pistols out there and remind us that they are still machines, which no matter how reliable can break, have a defective part, etc. I would be comfortable with a Glock, Beretta, Ruger, HK, and yes even a SIG, among other pistols. I prefer Glocks, but anything I listed would suit me just fine -- I mean they're not Hi-Points ok.

As for special ops I recently read in one of the gun mags that Marine Recon units have a 1911 variant available for use.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:42:35 PM EST
Ruck SF (ODAs) carry the M9, some have been modified to mount a suppressor. USASOC HHC carry M1911A1's made by Wilson Combat similar to his Tactical Elite. The Mk23 Mod 0 is not a weapon of choice in SF, it's to darn big and heavy, with all the "goodies" in a drop holster you destroy any object you pass by.Was an answer to a non problem made by support techies.

Take care...Jim, Sine Pari
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:44:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.



I have a Sig p220, over 3000 rounds threw it to date without one single problem...Do that with that plastic shit Glock!
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:48:03 PM EST
my glock has well over a cherry assed 3000rds. if you like it,love it. but my g17 is 10 years old, and looks and performs as new. got rid of my sigs after carrying for 2 months, good luck fishin!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:53:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
my glock has well over a cherry assed 3000rds. if you like it,love it. but my g17 is 10 years old, and looks and performs as new. got rid of my sigs after carrying for 2 months, good luck fishin!!!!!!!!!!!



Someday when you get brains you'll go from plastic to steel.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:59:08 PM EST
ok rambo. like i said like it,love it. but i havent seen any sigs shoot half a million rds and get run over, baked and frozen. but i caught a big 50lb catfish with one.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:06:17 PM EST
I see you finally found the cap lock button.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:06:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:08:24 PM EST
My personal 17 came here in 86. It is so early it has no lanyard hole. It was used by a pd till replaced, with only the finish to show for all the use. All I have done to it is replaced the unbroken guide rod with a wolf stainless and spring, and added a buffer.
Never to part. A hp would be good in 9mm too.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:09:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Green_Furniture:

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
ok rambo. like i said like it,love it. but i havent seen any sigs shoot half a million rds and get run over, baked and frozen. but i caught a big 50lb catfish with one.hr


But, of course, the average H&K does all that before breakfast and then it goes to work.



You got that right! Green_Furniture
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:11:50 PM EST
i'm sure glad you guys know everything, where would we be without the armchair experts.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:12:09 PM EST
A lot of the boys in SDVT1 here on Ford Island prefer the Sig P226 over any other sidearm at their disposal. The Mk23 is probably the least favored.

No flame intended toward Glocks. I feel they're decent and love the simplicity. But sold both my 17 and 22 after being converted to Sig.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:13:25 PM EST
like i said i had hk's and the damn safety lever breaks. go shoot em once in a while and you will find out.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:14:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 9:17:36 PM EST by LTAR15]
you fellas in sdv need fishin weights. had to do it!!!!
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:28:01 PM EST
Article from the TAG event a few weeks ago.

One of our members (also a range officer) had finished shooting a stage and was off to another. He had reloaded the gun after firing 20 rounds. He was at the low ready position getting ready to do a clearing drill. His finger was off the trigger along the slide.

The gun exploded in his hand. The slide expanded, the magazine was blown out of the bottom. The lower was bloated outwards probably at least an inch on either side of the gun.

He was shooting a Glock.

Now, here is the interesting part. There was a round in the chamber and its not the one that went off. It was the first round in the magazine that went off.

He sustained minor injuries to his right hand and right index finger. We cleaned him up as best we could. Nothing broken.

Glock is rebuilding the gun for him at cost - the only thing salvagable was the barrel. Everything else was a write off.

Three people standing around him (two other RO's for the stage) and a team shooter saw the gun go off.

Theres just something about having a plastic gun in your hands that offers little protection.

Boom. The last word in Glocks.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:39:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trucker:

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.



I have a Sig p220, over 3000 rounds threw it to date without one single problem...Do that with that plastic shit Glock!




The day that I bought my Glock 17 I put 1200 rnds thrue it WITHOUT CLEANING.

Part of my job at the range I use to work at was to maintain the rental handguns. The Sigs and HK's BY FAR were the most problematic. I have had Glocks so dirty that I had to use a screwdriver to SCRAPE&CHIP the carbon out of them. I did not own a handgun prior to working there but after about 6 months into it I got my Glock. Anyone who makes statements about plastic pistol frames being Crap is either a moron or is jelous that they wasted their money on a Sig or Beretta.

Short of it is, People that shoot their guns KNOW that the Glock and 1911 system are THE BEST OUT THERE. People that like to have something fancy and flashy to show off go for the Sig and HK's.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:42:55 PM EST
Wow! That failure is the same thing that kept US Customs for 3 years from issuing their Glock 17's. They were really junk. Mostly non fires or broken strikers right out of the box !So the Agents carried their S&W and Sigs for those 3 years and dreaded their replacement. But they finally got them right (after going thru the armorers & major parts replacements just like the FBI does). Incidentally, the FBI replaces their SWAT Glocks every 10k rounds.Just as a precaution you know.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 9:43:41 PM EST
I know that Glocks are good..I think it is a BAD attitude of some that post that gets us going...lol... have a nice evening... Trucker
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:04:04 PM EST
funny how sig owners know all the horror stories about glocks. but glock owners have no horror stories to share about anyone. yeah we glock owners have bad attitudes.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:25:52 PM EST
My brother could have picked a SIG (don't remember if it was 226 or 229), HK SOCOM, M9, or 1911, but what he chose to carry was a S&W 686, .357 magnum, stainless, 4" bbl.

He said it gave him the least amount of problems.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:29:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Wow! That failure is the same thing that kept US Customs for 3 years from issuing their Glock 17's. They were really junk. Mostly non fires or broken strikers right out of the box !So the Agents carried their S&W and Sigs for those 3 years and dreaded their replacement. But they finally got them right (after going thru the armorers & major parts replacements just like the FBI does). Incidentally, the FBI replaces their SWAT Glocks every 10k rounds.Just as a precaution you know.



The FBI dropped the S&W because they didn't work, now the only way for an agent to get one is to have their armorers rebuild the gun. The FBI uses Glock and 1911.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 10:38:20 PM EST
As recently as 1993 Marine Recon and Force Recon were using worn out M1911s with the grip safety taped down.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 4:59:37 AM EST
Everything I've read says that a majority of the special forces guys have a choice as to what they carry. I have heard that the HK MK23 isnt favored and allot of the guys bought personal HK Tacticals because of the smaller size but close to the same features. There is a reason that Beretta's, HK's, Sigs, and 1911's are all in the US arsenal and its not because they were cheap. Other wise everyone in the military would have a HiPoint.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 5:59:22 AM EST
Enough! Enough damn it! Too much XXX is better than YYY!

Just buy them all and the voices will stop...



As long as its a .45! Hey, everyone knows "They all fall to hardball!".
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 7:46:22 AM EST
Somebody offer up a critique of the Beretta 92/96 series' shortcomings, please...

"Getta Beretta".
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 9:25:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/6/2002 9:27:55 AM EST by Jarhead_22]
Force Recon bubbas use the MEU (SOC) pistol, a worked 1911A1 built for them by the 2112s at the Rifle Team Equipment shop at Quantico.



FYI: MEU (SOC)=Marine Expeditionary Unit-Special Operations Capable.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 10:03:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By BusMaster007:
Somebody offer up a critique of the Beretta 92/96 series' shortcomings, please...




The locking block on the Brl breaks. Sometimes unnoticed by the shooter. Fire a round with a broken locking block and your break off a nice chunk of the frame rail.

When my friends John, Glenn, and Herb opened O.S.A. in the fall of 1995 the very first two rental guns to fail were the two Beretta 92FS they had. Both guns self destructed in the manner described above. The guns were approximately 6 weeks old at the time. Each one had maybe 10,000 rounds through it.


PS..
The next guns to fail were the two Colt Pythons due to their delicate lockwork.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 10:19:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheFNG:

Anyone who makes statements about plastic pistol frames being Crap is either a moron or is jelous that they wasted their money on a Sig or Beretta.

Short of it is, People that shoot their guns KNOW that the Glock and 1911 system are THE BEST OUT THERE. People that like to have something fancy and flashy to show off go for the Sig and HK's.



Keep talking. I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type. Like many here, I've had nearly all of them (Glock x2, SIG x2, Beretta, SA 1911A, et al), and when you comment on the SIG, it's obvious that you're in over your head.

Unlike your ridiculous comments, I won't generalize across a broad range of good to excellent pistols. My experiences:
1. Glock: I'm amazed I shoot my Glocks as well as I do. Given the springy trigger, I'm actually impressed with the accuracy and reliability of the Glocks. But, they do have their KaBoom issues. You may want to do some research here before your next post.
2. SIG: My P226 has over 42,000 rounds through it (I'm on my second (Bar-Sto) barrel and it STILL functions flawlessly. Unlike the Glocks, however, the mags are very reliable and durable. My P226 is still my favorite (The Glock comes in 2nd).
3. Beretta: My Beretta was a POS from day one. Two broken firing pins by the second year (around 5k rounds) and the finish wore off before the end of year 2. It's long gone.
4. SA 1911A1: I've used STOCK M1911A1s pistols in and out of the service, and I'm not overly impressed. They've been the LEAST reliable handguns I've ever owned. If it won't feed, don't keep talking about history, accuracy, cartridge, etc. I need a gun I can rely on.

The short of it: You can crow about your favorite guns all you want, and the Glocks are certainly worthy of it. However, when you make asinine statements about pistols which have proven their reliability, accuracy, durability (you name it), be prepared for a rebuttal.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 11:50:53 AM EST
Hey, i've never had a problem with my glock....wtf... =o(

The only thing neat about the mk23 is that its accurate like a bitch. I've never shot a tighter group with a handgun when i was at the range with my friend's mark23 (civilian).
yea, it is a big little bitch, that thing felt like a desert eagle in my hands. I have small hands, so i did not like shooting it much. I can't imagine who would use that gun with the LAM and suppressor attached. Its one big paperweight in that configuration.

He did end up selling it, just did not find any practical looks for it except as a collector's item. Needless to say, he DID go out and buy himself a usp45 tactical. Now there's something i could shoot all day....(if i could ever afford one.)
Kind of amazing how long these 1911's have been around eh?
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 12:12:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Enough! Enough damn it! Too much XXX is better than YYY!

Just buy them all and the voices will stop...



As long as its a .45! Hey, everyone knows "They all fall to hardball!".



Amen.

I have all of them and just chuckle when the "My gun is better" idiots start in.

Truth be told they will all outlast any of us.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:19:52 PM EST
Lots of valid points on all sides of the house it would seem.

In my humble opinion, a pistol is a secondary weapon. And as such, any pistol that goes "BANG" every time you pull the trigger would be the pistol of choice.

I cannot speak for the Army, but there are plenty of operator's out and about the coastlines that have the same arguments about which pistol is the best for whatever.

Current issue available for SEAL Teams are HK MK23 SOCOM .45, Sig 226 9mm, S&W 686 .357

But, if anyone happens to find the be all end all pistol, let me know, I'd like to add one to my inventory.



Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:38:02 PM EST
I am probably going to get my ass kicked and 'd till Jesus comes, but I also have a S&W 411 .40cal. It is 8yrs and 2500rds+ it eats everything I feed it and have Never experienced a hiccup from it, and it shoots 4" groups at 25m. I wouldnt trade it for any other handgun on the planet..
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:39:23 PM EST
Auto loader anyways........
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:50:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Trucker:

Originally Posted By LTAR15:
the best combat pistol is a glock 17, i had em all sigs,colts,hk,and beretta. the only thing better than a g17 is a browning hp. sig's make a good fishing weight.



I have a Sig p220, over 3000 rounds threw it to date without one single problem...Do that with that plastic shit Glock!



I have put more than 30K rnds through a SIG P229, and thousands upon thousands of rounds through varous other SIG pistols. I WOULD BET MY LIFE ON THEM.

That being said, I currently shoot the G34. It's lighting fast and the trigger is devoid of that heavy double action first shot. The double strike capability is an important factor if you are going in harms way, but I am not.

Anyone that would bash a SIG doesn't know what the hell their talking about.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:51:31 PM EST
Glocks are great if you like guns with bizarre grip angles and finger grooves that don't fit anyone on earth. I'll take my USPs and Sigs thank you. They have been problem free for me...
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 3:10:31 PM EST
Trucker, Your friend that had the Glock setback told you the round in the chamber didn't go off but the one still in the mag did? After looking at my G30 I just don't see how this can be the truth. There must be more to the story.

If you want a work of art but a Sig. If you want a tool that works when you need it: Glock.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 3:17:20 PM EST
Hard to choose after reading this thread, hmmmm Glock might or might not have problems and SIG, well no one says they are bad.

So either pick a gun that might be good or bad, or a gun that is good every time. Choices... choices...
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 4:01:33 PM EST
I'm really curious. Where did you guys learn the immediate action drill of "if it does'nt go bang, pull the trigger again"? Works great on a revolver, but what happened to: tap, rack and bang?
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 5:41:48 PM EST
My bestfriend is a Marine Recon and he likes using his 1911. If you don't have a issued sidearm you can use whats best. My Captain was a Ranger and he used a Mark23.
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