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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 9/4/2003 6:55:46 PM EDT
Just out of curiousity, what is the least expensive NFA Class III (full auto capable) firearm that one can buy?

(NOTE: I am referring to *normal* pricing, not the one-offs where someone finds the deal of a lifetime)
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 7:06:17 PM EDT
Mac 10? I believe they can be had for about $1000. Pretty damn cheap when you consider the preban semi ones are like $500.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:12:29 PM EDT
There are a bit more pricey than that but you can find pre-86 M/11s in 9mm caliber for about $1500 if you look carefully. That's alot of fun for the money, kids.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 8:10:41 AM EDT
You see Stens and the SW M76 clones go for around $2000.00 or so. 9mm and 380 Macs seem to go less than the 45s. A few years ago I remember seeing ads in Shotgun News for Powder Springs M10s with the can- for around $1700-1800 not including the two tax stamps...
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 9:27:14 AM EDT
A new Uzi cost just under 3 grand up till about 2 years ago..now they cost 4500 bucks??? There were lots of 2900 Uzi sales ..I even saw a few group sales of 3 or 4 at a time for about 8G
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 3:12:33 PM EDT
Atlga when Vector arms ran out of their full size Uzis the entire market jumped. What alot of people (myself included) failed to realize is that the $2900 Vector Uzis were holding down the entire submachinegun market. After all, why pay more than $2500 for a S&W 76 if you can get an Uzi for $500 more, right?

Well, when Vector announced that they were out, the value of their guns jumped $1500 in a day. Lots of knowledgable people knew this would happen. Few people realized that the prices on Thompsons, S&W76s, M/11s, and even HK Mp5s would jump noticeably as well.

You can still get a mini-Uzi for around $4,500 from Vector. Once those run out, who knows what the market will do--there will no longer be any distributor in the United States of America with an inventory of machineguns which have been there since '86. After this, we are all just buying and selling each other's used guns over and over again.

If I had any extra money I sure as hell wouldn't put it in the stock market. I'd buy a machinegun!
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 3:14:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 4:00:20 PM EDT
I just bought an M11/9. While I didn't look too far and wide, I watched the usual boards, went to the local shows, and called the local dealers. Probably was looking for around 3 weeks before I bought. OK, this is a pretty short time, but we're talking an M11/9 here, for which availability never used to be a problem.

First, these little buggers are pretty hard to find now. Second, cost has jumped up alot in the last few months. Expect to pay $2K+ for a NIB on a form 3, if you can find one. Used, but not abused, on a form 4, maybe $1600-$1700. Hopefully you can get lucky and find one in-state and avoid the second transfer tax - otherwise, you may as well look for a NIB one on a form 3.

With Tactical Innovations recently ceasing their sales, I'd imagine this is only going to climb higher. Although I can't think they sold too many at the prices they were asking for the previous month or so before this.

Non-PS MAC 10's or MAC 10/9's seem to be easier to come across than a M11/9 currently, and as a result, a bit cheaper, but I imagine they'll catch up shortly.

Stens and M-76 clones for $2000? Maybe a few months ago, but I didn't see any priced anywhere near that when I was looking. Seems to be a whole different ball game now. As mentioned, the Vector UZI's kept the market down for awhile. I also believe the "Shrike-mania" that jacked the M16 prices up really effected the low end market as well. Those who would previously had skipped the low end guns to save up for something like an M16 now find the mid-range guns ain't so mid range anymore, and the low end is all they can afford. As a result, demand goes up, price goes up.

Your best bet may be to find something in state on a form 4 from a private individual that may not be quite up to date on current pricing. Someone selling at prices from 6 months ago can get you quite a deal.

Rocko
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 5:19:33 PM EDT
Thanks for the info guys. Mind if I ask what the difference between a "Form 3" and a "Form 4"? Is one a MG xfer from in-state and the other from out of state?
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 5:44:38 PM EDT
F3 - tax free transfer. For dealer to dealer transfers.

F4 - taxable transfer. For individual (non-licensee) to individual, dealer to individual, or individual to dealer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 8:40:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rocko:


First, these little buggers are pretty hard to find now. Second, cost has jumped up alot in the last few months. Expect to pay $2K+ for a NIB on a form 3, if you can find one. Used, but not abused, on a form 4, maybe $1600-$1700. Hopefully you can get lucky and find one in-state and avoid the second transfer tax - otherwise, you may as well look for a NIB one on a form 3.
Rocko



You are misinformed, Rocko. You only need to pay a transfer tax once, no matter where the gun is coming from. i live in Oregon, say i want an Uzi in Florida- The gun gets transfered Florida dealer to Oregon dealer, no tax. Oregon dealer transfers it to me, i pay $200 tax. Simple.

If you know something else about this, let us know, I would be interested in hearing it.

Danny

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 8:43:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jtb33:
Just out of curiousity, what is the least expensive NFA Class III (full auto capable) firearm that one can buy?

(NOTE: I am referring to *normal* pricing, not the one-offs where someone finds the deal of a lifetime)



And, for the the smartass answer of the thread,

Post dealer samples!!!



all you gotta do is be in the biznezz, fo!

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:08:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 9:09:17 AM EDT by shaggy]

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By rocko:


First, these little buggers are pretty hard to find now. Second, cost has jumped up alot in the last few months. Expect to pay $2K+ for a NIB on a form 3, if you can find one. Used, but not abused, on a form 4, maybe $1600-$1700. Hopefully you can get lucky and find one in-state and avoid the second transfer tax - otherwise, you may as well look for a NIB one on a form 3.
Rocko



You are misinformed, Rocko. You only need to pay a transfer tax once, no matter where the gun is coming from. i live in Oregon, say i want an Uzi in Florida- The gun gets transfered Florida dealer to Oregon dealer, no tax. Oregon dealer transfers it to me, i pay $200 tax. Simple.

If you know something else about this, let us know, I would be interested in hearing it.

Danny




Not to speak for Rocko, but I think thats what he meant. If its on a F3, its obviously with a dealer and can go to another dealer tax free. However, if the gun is in the hands of a private individual (on a F4) in another state there ARE two taxes to be paid; one for the F4 to get it from the individual to a dealer in the buyer's state and one to go from the dealer to the buyer on a F4. Thus if you were buying that Uzi in FL from an unlicensed individual, you'd have to pay $400 total in tax to get it to an individual in OR on a F4.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danonly:
You are misinformed, Rocko. You only need to pay a transfer tax once, no matter where the gun is coming from. i live in Oregon, say i want an Uzi in Florida- The gun gets transfered Florida dealer to Oregon dealer, no tax. Oregon dealer transfers it to me, i pay $200 tax. Simple.

If you know something else about this, let us know, I would be interested in hearing it.

Danny



If the gun is owned by an individual on a form 4 out of state, two taxes will need to be paid. One from individual to a dealer in your state (or dealer in their state -> dealer in your state) and one from the dealer to you. Both would be form 4, tax paid, transfers. The only tax free transfers are between dealers. While the seller is technically responsible for the first transfer tax, it seems for all practical purposes, the buyer pays for it - either directly, or through an artificially inflated price.

At least that's how I understand it. I'm only in the middle of my first NFA transfer, so no expert.

Rocko
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:23:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 9:26:33 AM EDT by danonly]
Its my understanding that a dealer never has to pay the $200 tax, so why would a transfer from an individual to a dealer in another state involve the tax?

A dealer never pays for the tax stamps, that is covered by the SOT.


disagree/ agree?

I've never gotten an NFA from an individual from out of state, but it just seems wrong the way you guys are describing it. I've got at least seven fvking tax stamps that i can think of off the top of my head, so its not like i'm talking outta my butt.

i like the person to person in state transfer best- for privacy reasons

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:29:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Not to speak for Rocko, but I think thats what he meant. If its on a F3, its obviously with a dealer and can go to another dealer tax free. However, if the gun is in the hands of a private individual (on a F4) in another state there ARE two taxes to be paid; one for the F4 to get it from the individual to a dealer in the buyer's state and one to go from the dealer to the buyer on a F4. Thus if you were buying that Uzi in FL from an unlicensed individual, you'd have to pay $400 total in tax to get it to an individual in OR on a F4.



So what you are saying is that in addition to a dealer having to pay the SOT, he has to pay tax stamps for an individual to transfer an nfa to him? just doesn't make sense, and in a way that even the government normally makes sense (i know, hard to believe)

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:45:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 9:46:22 AM EDT by danonly]
I guess you guys are right, i just got this from this www.full-auto.com/library_laws.htm


We have these forms available on-line in a PDF format. Click HERE to view the forms or to download them.

Form 4: This form is used to transfer an NFA weapon or device from a Dealer to a non-licensee or from a non-licensee to a Dealer. The appropriate Transfer Tax will apply.


boy that sure sucks. I guess i have never tried to buy anything from an individual from out of state.



Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:45:51 AM EDT
Yup thats how it works. Its a transfer tax - $200 to transfer it to an individual, $200 to transfer it from one. When you buy an NFA item from an individual on a F4, the only time you get hit for a single tax (rather than twice) is when the seller and the buyer (dealer or individual) are in the same state.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:47:52 AM EDT
Ok, so an SOT/ NFA dealer has firearms in his inventory with tax stamps on the paperwork? that is just messed up.

Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:02:08 AM EDT
Thats also why you only rarely see used cans for sale by individuals across state lines. For example - guy buys $600 can new; pays $200 tax. He's in for $800 total. Later he decides to sell it. For that seller to clear even half of what he paid for the can and the tax ($400)if he sells to an out of state buyer, that buyer has got to be willing to pay as much for the seller's used can ($400 + $200 + $200 + $800)as he would for a brand new can ($600 + $200).

Now who would buy used when they can have new for the same price? And thats for a $600 can. You can do the math for a $300 can.
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