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Posted: 4/15/2006 8:47:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 8:54:20 AM EST by BUCC_Guy]
My parents have been calling me nonstop for the past two weeks. Literally two phone calls in the last 15 minutes.

They are the worst gun nuts in the world and my old man is taking his big first step towards being a black rifle gun nut. He's looking at M1As. Not black, but close enough for him. And he needs some info.

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?


Are the Springfield Match rifles "loaded" worth the hundreds of dollars more than a standard M1A?

Anything to look for with the receivers?

Are "older" guns better in terms of quality of the receiver? (Don't ask why that is in my head... i recall hearing it.)

Are the "cast receiver" stories true? Is there really anything to worry about?

If someone buys a Springfield, are they pretty much going to be happy with it?

Any other technical stuff to look for? My old man is a gunsmith so not much is going to go over his head but I just need a list of things to look for and/or look out for.

Thanks guys,


- BG

EDIT: They live on the gun auction sites when they get home from work and make 8 hour "rounds" around the state of CT every weekend. They're nuts...
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 8:58:40 AM EST
Tag for info
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:18:33 AM EST
The cast recievers are o.k. for general use, but they most certainly are not the "real deal". Buying a springfield armory inc. rifle was the biggest mistake I ever made. 1. Do not give s.a.i. your credit card number, they decided months after I bought some accesories that I owed them more, so they took the money and as it was a debit card I had no recourse. The F.U. attitude they displayed when I called was insane. They are two-bit shysters and even though this has not been everyones experience, if they did it to me, they will do it to anyone. 2. The poorly cast reciever on my Loaded M1a tore the roller off my bolt. After my experience with their so-called customer service, I do not trust or want their supposed great warranty and have had to spend hundreds more on a new bolt and filing/refinishing a brand new rifle. 3. they use deceptive marketing to make you think you are getting a military weapon, it shoots straight, but this is due to inherent design, not quality. By the time you get one and round up all the various GI parts you will have far more money into it and the reciever is still cast. If he wants it for occasional shooting, buy a cast recievered rifle from A.B.S. (anyone but springfield). If he wants a real deal MBR, get a Smith or LRB or find an older chicom or real US Springfield with a forged reciever, and send it off to Warbird or another reputable gunsmith for a build. I could have had one for what I have in my sai now and a lot less headache.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:35:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 9:38:34 AM EST by NewbieDave]
If you dad's going with a Springfield... he can't go wrong with it. Either can he with a Fulton Armoy rifle either. Both are great shooter that will hold up to many rounds at the range. I personally would go with a Springfield since I have dealt with their customer service and they were top notch [EDIT: I guess this would be a case by case bases since the above poster had issue with SA's CS].

As for getting either a basic rifle or a fully loaded one is going to be how much you want to spent. When I got my basic M1A with sythenic stock, they were running a 'loaded' program which gave me upgrade match barrel, sight, and trigger for free. Not sure if they are currently running the same program... but I had to order directly from them through my FFL.

My friend got a basic rifle and to be fair... at 100yds, both rifle pretty much put everything on paper using the stock irons. It's when you want to work at 300+ yards with a scope would my match barrel shines.

Old or new... if it's from either SF or FA, they would be great guns. While there still may be opinion on lug or none-lug receiver... unless you're planning on shooting match out to 500 yards, you probably don't need to have a lug receiver. There's also pro and con when it comes to Polytech (Made in China) M1A... keep in mind that some people have had issue while others have none. The biggest issue with Polytechs over the years has been 'soft' metal receiver... but these issues were coming from shooters that use +p loads or hand-loaded match loads, or even from shooters putting thursands of rounds into it.

For info... try Fulton's site for more info on the M1A or try the M14 Forum. A lot of old times are on the M14 forum... they'll be able to give you more info on the M1A than in the ARFcom forum.


~nb
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:10:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:32:19 AM EST
There's nothing wrong with new production M1A rifles - if that doesn't suit you, look for something like this
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 11:43:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By m14phreak:
The cast recievers are o.k. for general use, but they most certainly are not the "real deal".



Link Posted: 4/15/2006 12:35:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 12:36:10 PM EST by BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.



I understand that you are quite the M14 guru and I appreciate your time. Any particular reason for that serial number cutoff?


- BG

EDIT: I appreciate everyone's input... the good and the bad!
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 1:15:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/15/2006 1:17:42 PM EST by Different]

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.



I understand that you are quite the M14 guru and I appreciate your time. Any particular reason for that serial number cutoff?

- BG

EDIT: I appreciate everyone's input... the good and the bad!



Current production M1A rifles are fine though sometimes the extractor is machined improperly. That issue is easily fixed by installing a USGI M1 or M14 extractor. I have a 2001 Scout Squad model and a 2002 Standard model that I would not give up for love nor money. They run like thoroughbreds. I owned two 1999 production M1A rifles I still regret selling. Since 1993, SA, Inc. stands behind its M1A rifles with a limited lifetime warranty. They almost always get positive comments on customer service based on feedback I've read posted on the Internet for the last eight years. I've never had a bad experience with Springfield Armory, Inc.

Installing a scope mount on a M1A can be iffy but that holds true for Federal Ordnance and Armscorp receivers as well. IMO, your first M14 type should have iron sights. Scope your second or third M14 rifle. JMHO

Valley Ordnance machined the M1A receivers from before serial number 000001 until serial number 097726 (1971 until July, 1996). The reasons why I suggested buying a M1A under serial number 097000 are:

1) my sentiment towards Valley Ordnance (see my free online book at www.imageseek.com/m1a)

2) rifles under 09700 will have a fair to high percentage of USGI M14 parts

3) Melvin Smith of Valley Ordnance hand finished the receivers until around serial number 070000 so there is a visual appeal to the lower serial number receivers

4) M1A rifles under serial number 084000 are pre-'94 ban which makes a difference in some states like Connecticut, i.e, you can have the evil bayonet lug

5) you are less likely to have fitting problems with a M14 scope mount on Valley Ordnance M1A receivers based on my own collection of M1A rifles and feedback from many M1A owners

6) the asymmetrical heel geometry of some recent M1A receivers may not be pleasing to some buyers

7) the 7.62 mm marking which appears on M1A receivers under 063000 is a nice-to-have IMO

8) a used M1A rifle has likely been shot and any issues resolved and

9) the lower the serial number the easier it is to sell a M1A to a collector if you ever had to.

HTH
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 4:04:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.



I understand that you are quite the M14 guru and I appreciate your time. Any particular reason for that serial number cutoff?

- BG

EDIT: I appreciate everyone's input... the good and the bad!



Current production M1A rifles are fine though sometimes the extractor is machined improperly. That issue is easily fixed by installing a USGI M1 or M14 extractor. I have a 2001 Scout Squad model and a 2002 Standard model that I would not give up for love nor money. They run like thoroughbreds. I owned two 1999 production M1A rifles I still regret selling. Since 1993, SA, Inc. stands behind its M1A rifles with a limited lifetime warranty. They almost always get positive comments on customer service based on feedback I've read posted on the Internet for the last eight years. I've never had a bad experience with Springfield Armory, Inc.

Installing a scope mount on a M1A can be iffy but that holds true for Federal Ordnance and Armscorp receivers as well. IMO, your first M14 type should have iron sights. Scope your second or third M14 rifle. JMHO

Valley Ordnance machined the M1A receivers from before serial number 000001 until serial number 097726 (1971 until July, 1996). The reasons why I suggested buying a M1A under serial number 097000 are:

1) my sentiment towards Valley Ordnance (see my free online book at www.imageseek.com/m1a)

2) rifles under 09700 will have a fair to high percentage of USGI M14 parts

3) Melvin Smith of Valley Ordnance hand finished the receivers until around serial number 070000 so there is a visual appeal to the lower serial number receivers

4) M1A rifles under serial number 084000 are pre-'94 ban which makes a difference in some states like Connecticut, i.e, you can have the evil bayonet lug

5) you are less likely to have fitting problems with a M14 scope mount on Valley Ordnance M1A receivers based on my own collection of M1A rifles and feedback from many M1A owners

6) the asymmetrical heel geometry of some recent M1A receivers may not be pleasing to some buyers

7) the 7.62 mm marking which appears on M1A receivers under 063000 is a nice-to-have IMO

8) a used M1A rifle has likely been shot and any issues resolved and

9) the lower the serial number the easier it is to sell a M1A to a collector if you ever had to.

HTH



+1, Different has some very good points as always.

Strangely enough M1A's have turned into something similar to fine wines, all can be good, but some years are better than others.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 5:09:06 PM EST
Good post, Different.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 9:52:40 PM EST



You are the man, Different.

Lots of info I can pass along... thank you very much.


- BG

Link Posted: 4/16/2006 1:39:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 4:07:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.



I understand that you are quite the M14 guru and I appreciate your time. Any particular reason for that serial number cutoff?

- BG

EDIT: I appreciate everyone's input... the good and the bad!



Current production M1A rifles are fine though sometimes the extractor is machined improperly. That issue is easily fixed by installing a USGI M1 or M14 extractor. I have a 2001 Scout Squad model and a 2002 Standard model that I would not give up for love nor money. They run like thoroughbreds. I owned two 1999 production M1A rifles I still regret selling. Since 1993, SA, Inc. stands behind its M1A rifles with a limited lifetime warranty. They almost always get positive comments on customer service based on feedback I've read posted on the Internet for the last eight years. I've never had a bad experience with Springfield Armory, Inc.

Installing a scope mount on a M1A can be iffy but that holds true for Federal Ordnance and Armscorp receivers as well. IMO, your first M14 type should have iron sights. Scope your second or third M14 rifle. JMHO

Valley Ordnance machined the M1A receivers from before serial number 000001 until serial number 097726 (1971 until July, 1996). The reasons why I suggested buying a M1A under serial number 097000 are:

1) my sentiment towards Valley Ordnance (see my free online book at www.imageseek.com/m1a)

2) rifles under 09700 will have a fair to high percentage of USGI M14 parts

3) Melvin Smith of Valley Ordnance hand finished the receivers until around serial number 070000 so there is a visual appeal to the lower serial number receivers

4) M1A rifles under serial number 084000 are pre-'94 ban which makes a difference in some states like Connecticut, i.e, you can have the evil bayonet lug

5) you are less likely to have fitting problems with a M14 scope mount on Valley Ordnance M1A receivers based on my own collection of M1A rifles and feedback from many M1A owners

6) the asymmetrical heel geometry of some recent M1A receivers may not be pleasing to some buyers

7) the 7.62 mm marking which appears on M1A receivers under 063000 is a nice-to-have IMO

8) a used M1A rifle has likely been shot and any issues resolved and

9) the lower the serial number the easier it is to sell a M1A to a collector if you ever had to.

HTH



I was told by the Dept of Enviromental Protection that Pre-Ban or not, it isn't allowed in CT. Were they wrong?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 4:33:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 4:55:07 AM EST by Different]

Originally Posted By Blue_Genes:

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:

What is the best blanket information I can give him about shopping for M1As?




Buy a used Springfield Armory, Inc. standard model M1A under serial number 097000. Continue mission.



I understand that you are quite the M14 guru and I appreciate your time. Any particular reason for that serial number cutoff?

- BG

EDIT: I appreciate everyone's input... the good and the bad!



Current production M1A rifles are fine though sometimes the extractor is machined improperly. That issue is easily fixed by installing a USGI M1 or M14 extractor. I have a 2001 Scout Squad model and a 2002 Standard model that I would not give up for love nor money. They run like thoroughbreds. I owned two 1999 production M1A rifles I still regret selling. Since 1993, SA, Inc. stands behind its M1A rifles with a limited lifetime warranty. They almost always get positive comments on customer service based on feedback I've read posted on the Internet for the last eight years. I've never had a bad experience with Springfield Armory, Inc.

Installing a scope mount on a M1A can be iffy but that holds true for Federal Ordnance and Armscorp receivers as well. IMO, your first M14 type should have iron sights. Scope your second or third M14 rifle. JMHO

Valley Ordnance machined the M1A receivers from before serial number 000001 until serial number 097726 (1971 until July, 1996). The reasons why I suggested buying a M1A under serial number 097000 are:

1) my sentiment towards Valley Ordnance (see my free online book at www.imageseek.com/m1a)

2) rifles under 09700 will have a fair to high percentage of USGI M14 parts

3) Melvin Smith of Valley Ordnance hand finished the receivers until around serial number 070000 so there is a visual appeal to the lower serial number receivers

4) M1A rifles under serial number 084000 are pre-'94 ban which makes a difference in some states like Connecticut, i.e, you can have the evil bayonet lug

5) you are less likely to have fitting problems with a M14 scope mount on Valley Ordnance M1A receivers based on my own collection of M1A rifles and feedback from many M1A owners

6) the asymmetrical heel geometry of some recent M1A receivers may not be pleasing to some buyers

7) the 7.62 mm marking which appears on M1A receivers under 063000 is a nice-to-have IMO

8) a used M1A rifle has likely been shot and any issues resolved and

9) the lower the serial number the easier it is to sell a M1A to a collector if you ever had to.

HTH



I was told by the Dept of Enviromental Protection that Pre-Ban or not, it isn't allowed in CT. Were they wrong?



Yes when it comes to the semi-automatic M14 type rifle. I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice but the statute is written in English. Here are the relevant Connecticut General Statutes:

Sec. 53-202m. Circumstances when assault weapons exempt from limitations on transfers and registration requirements. Notwithstanding any provision of the general statutes, sections 53-202a to 53-202l, inclusive, shall not be construed to limit the transfer or require the registration of an assault weapon as defined in subdivision (3) or (4) of subsection (a) of section 53-202a, provided such firearm was legally manufactured prior to September 13, 1994.

and

Sec. 53-202a. Assault weapons: Definition. (a) As used in this section and sections 53-202b to 53-202k, inclusive, "assault weapon" means:

(3) Any semiautomatic firearm not listed in subdivision (1) of this subsection [Editorial note: M14 or M1A is not listed in subdivision (1) - Different] that meets the following criteria:

(A) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

(i) A folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) A bayonet mount;

(iv) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v) A grenade launcher


If your M14/M1A was legally manufactured before September 13, 1994 it is not an Assault Weapon under Connecticut law. The pre-'94 ban M14 type rifle in Connecticut is allowed to have the evil features and it's exempt from registration as an Assault Weapon.



Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:50:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By m14phreak:
The cast recievers are o.k. for general use, but they most certainly are not the "real deal". Buying a springfield armory inc. rifle was the biggest mistake I ever made. 1. Do not give s.a.i. your credit card number, they decided months after I bought some accesories that I owed them more, so they took the money and as it was a debit card I had no recourse. The F.U. attitude they displayed when I called was insane. They are two-bit shysters and even though this has not been everyones experience, if they did it to me, they will do it to anyone. 2. The poorly cast reciever on my Loaded M1a tore the roller off my bolt. After my experience with their so-called customer service, I do not trust or want their supposed great warranty and have had to spend hundreds more on a new bolt and filing/refinishing a brand new rifle. 3. they use deceptive marketing to make you think you are getting a military weapon, it shoots straight, but this is due to inherent design, not quality. By the time you get one and round up all the various GI parts you will have far more money into it and the reciever is still cast. If he wants it for occasional shooting, buy a cast recievered rifle from A.B.S. (anyone but springfield). If he wants a real deal MBR, get a Smith or LRB or find an older chicom or real US Springfield with a forged reciever, and send it off to Warbird or another reputable gunsmith for a build. I could have had one for what I have in my sai now and a lot less headache.



Your bullshit about the "real US Springfield receiver" makes me wonder what you really know. That is a class 3 part, and wthout spending about 7 or 8 thousand dollars and going the class 3 way to remain legal it ain't gonna happen. Besides, all I see are crunched "real" receivers I certainly don't see any advertised for sale anywhere. [yes I know there were some built long ago for match shooting but they are pretty scarce and a grey area]

I have 2 older SAs. A 4 digit NM and a 5 digit. Both have all GI parts. [the NM did have a SAI trigger hsg but I put in a TRW one] Both work fine. The receivers are cast, tis true but even the experts admit that for a semi auto rifle, they are fine and broken ones are few and far between. The cast bolts were a problem and they are now forged as they should be.

I'm sorry you had problems with your M1As, but a chicom has it's own share of problems also, and headspacing and bolts were one of them. Warbird is a great m14 smith and highly recommended. If it was built correctly and fitted properly a M1A should run fine, if it was not, problems will keep reoccuring til it is.

Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:03:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 6:03:48 AM EST by Different]
.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 10:00:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2006 10:00:33 AM EST by Chuck]
Name calling; and needless and endless complete quoting of previous messages.
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