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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:49:15 PM EDT
Hello,
I need some help in a paper I am writing.
It very close to what Sniper_Wolfe asked but I have more restrictions.

Scenario:
You are to pick the best Close Quarter Battle sidearm.

Givens: This is your secondary weapon, your primary is the M4. The caliber is .45, hollow point. (please the choice of the round is not the factor here). This is consider more as a defensive rather then an offensive.

Criteria:
U.S. Made, Salt Spray Test, Mean Time Between Failures (real Data would be great), Ammunition Capacities, Accuracy, Cost, Able to Attach Accessories, maintainability, and warranty.

The players:
Heckler & Koch Mark 23
Glock 21
Beretta 8045D
Springfield Armory TRP Pro Model
Ruger P97D
Smith & Wesson 4586TSW
Wilson Combat CQB
Sigarms P220
Para-ordnance P14-45

Now give your reasons why you choose a particular model, if you have real data or real experiences that would also be great.
I hope also this would be great discussions on what would you do if you were in charge.
Some of the answers from Sniper_Wolfe thread are good and detailed.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:33:07 PM EDT
Wilson Combat CQB would be my choice. It is reliable, accurate and it is a 1911.

Nothing fits my smaller than average hand better than a single column 1911. Also, I have been shooting 1911 pistols longer than any other pistols and it use is almost second nature to me. With a good 8 round magazine, 9 rounds of 45ACP is enough to get the job done inside 30 yards unless you were being attached by a vary large mob... in which case no pistol is going to save you. Finally, I choose Wilson over SA or Para because I hate the squarish grip on the SA and Para grip is too large for comfort.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:36:54 PM EDT
H&K Mk23, due to the versatility and ability to attach different accessorises to customise to my current situation or environment.
also, in my opinion and experience the h&k had easier to manipulate controls under stress.
just my .02
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:46:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By quietshoez:
H&K Mk23, due to the versatility and ability to attach different accessorises to customise to my current situation or environment.
also, in my opinion and experience the h&k had easier to manipulate controls under stress.
just my .02



And if all else fails, you can club'em with the bohemoth. I tend to favor H&K, but think I would go with the Wilson Combat CQB. I don't have a 1911, but really want one, and Wilson makes a GREAT firearm.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 10:15:13 PM EDT
Man, I love HKs, but that MK 23 is just way too big for me. If you had inserted the Tactical or even the standard USP, I'd have been all over it.

That said, I think I'd go with the TRP.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:00:41 AM EDT
Would have to take a Glock. Very simple weapon.


Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:01:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:03:31 AM EDT
What? No 9mm?
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 7:12:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
What? No 9mm?



Who want's a glorified .38 sp.?

1911A1 all the way.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 8:04:38 AM EDT
glock-21
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 11:56:49 AM EDT
I too would have opted for a HK Tactical.
MK23 Features, a bit smaller package.
12rnds
Suppressor ready
DA/SA + Decocker
Handles +P loads and .45 Super
Light/laser ready
Reliability!

But, since it wasn't on the list I would go for the G21. I have a G20(10mm) and love it. When I pick out a defensive gun I look for 1)reliability 2)Capacity 3)reliability
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:10:21 PM EDT
Either 1911.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:17:44 PM EDT
The U.S. made condition really shortens the list.

I find Rugers to large for my hand, I am not a fan of S&W for combat guns, so that would leave the Wilson. Its a good gun anyway.

Waverunner, H&K is now an English company even though I am pretty sure they are still made in Germany.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:20:55 PM EDT
Wilson Combat CQB. You can even get a light rail installed on it now. The HK MK 23 is way too bulky, and the Glock has a attrocious trigger pull (plus, no external ssafety). The Wilson will beat both of them in accuracy. Since this is a defensive weapon, I'll assume that I don't need a silencer on it. If I did need a silenced handgun for entry, I'd probably use a USP Tactical or a Beretta M9 with an AAC or B&T suppressor.

themao
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:06:34 PM EDT
Any 1911. Just like your AR you can change it to whatever you want-- or should I say can afford!!
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:20:29 PM EDT
Wilson CQB
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:27:23 PM EDT
No vote......colt mark4 series 70 is not on the list........O-K.....wilson cqb........
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 3:39:42 PM EDT
I go with either the Wilson or the Springfield. Parts are easy to get. Mags are plentyful. I would refinish the firearms in Black-T.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 5:59:10 PM EDT
Just a thing on American made.
M9 is Beretta, is it Italian?
HK has the Mark 23, is that German?
Just like any company that wants to business with the US, they set up offices here in the US and make the guns here. So no matter who is the parent company is it is still US made.
Food for thought.
Thanks for the reply’s, keep them coming!!
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 6:27:55 PM EDT
I favor Beretta, but, from the list you gave, I'd pick the Glock 21.
Anchorage PD did, too, I think.
Capacity and simplicity of the gun, although I heard something about Glock having "unsupported chambers" and quite frankly don't know what this means or the significance of it. Maybe that would make this a bad choice. I really don't know.

I wouldn't pick a tight custom shop 1911. I'd think a looser gun would function better in cruddy conditions.

Probably the HK Mk23 would be the best choice overall, if I had a larger hand transplanted onto the end of my arm...
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 6:34:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 6:53:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HET:
Just a thing on American made.
M9 is Beretta, is it Italian?
HK has the Mark 23, is that German?
Just like any company that wants to business with the US, they set up offices here in the US and make the guns here. So no matter who is the parent company is it is still US made.
Food for thought.
Thanks for the reply’s, keep them coming!!



Sig, Glock, Para Ordinance, and H&K may have offices in the USA but none of their guns are made here. I'm not sure about Berretta. That makes your American made list very short.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 11:07:07 PM EDT
Wilson CQB all the way!

1. Reliable
2. Accurate
3. Made in the U.S.
4. Battle proven design and cartridge.
5. Because the O.D. green/matte black, Armory Tuff finish looks badass.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 12:47:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 1:48:17 AM EDT by TheProfessional]
Need the Beretta 96G EliteII in .40 up there. Carry 2 of em, and you wont even need that pesky M4.

Edited to add this...

Seriously, ever see how some 3rd world AK47 users tend to shoot from the hip in CQB? Shooting like that is actually a very useful, acquired skill. The gun has become an extension of the shooter, they are as one. They can quickly point and "feel" where their shots will go, alowing them to aim with tremendous speed. This also gives them a better view for faster target assesment.

This method is best used with multiple handguns. Once perfected, you can fire without traditional aiming, at multiple targets, and usually while running. It's pure instinct shooting. You'll have a much larger freedom of movement, expecially when you have both guns holstered.

Fighting like this is a rush, as you need fast reflexes and quick decision making. But when perfected, you've become one of the elite. Every squad needs a good pistoleer.

Pro
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 6:23:43 AM EDT

Criteria:
U.S. Made, Salt Spray Test, Mean Time Between Failures (real Data would be great), Ammunition Capacities, Accuracy, Cost, Able to Attach Accessories, maintainability, and warranty.


Is being U.S. made a requirement or just a "good thing"?

How important is the cost factor?

And why do you need to attach accessories to a defensive pistol? (Remember, you have an M4 to hang your gadgets on.)
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:58:03 AM EDT
I'd choose the only 1911 in the bunch. Wilson CQB. 1911s are still unsurpassed when it comes to speed, accuracy, reliability and effectiveness.

Deuce01
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:05:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:12:57 AM EDT
I'd take the S&W 625-7 in .45 Colt. American made, and in .45 caliber.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:07:03 AM EDT
My Colt Combat Elite or any colt 1911! And the next best Double action would be the SIG P220!!
Both are the 2 Tops!!!
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:37:15 AM EDT

The defining attributes of a combat handgun.

Reliability
Simplicity
Capacity­

The Glock 21 wins all three.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:47:14 AM EDT
I'd take the Hi-Cap Glock 21. For close in, the reliability, simplicity and firepower is worth any accuracy difference between 1911 style autos. The Mark23 would be next to useless, given it's ridiculous size. Besides, it's an OFFENSIVE pistol (and that's what it was designed for), if there can ever be such a thing.

If I had to pick a 1911, I'd pick the CQB (compact).
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:58:53 AM EDT
I'd take the SIG 220. I shoot with my 226 and 228 all the time, it's what I know, what I've got the muscle memory for. In CQB, you don't have time to look for the controls.

BTW, Sigarms has a manufacturing plant in Exeter, NH, and Beretta in Potomic, MD.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:33:00 PM EDT
Sig P220 hands down....

"Engineer Reliability......

for When it Counts...."
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 3:12:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 3:28:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 9:29:37 PM EDT
Springfield Milspec, just put money down on one!
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