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Posted: 8/18/2005 6:30:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:30:50 AM EDT by tc6969]
One of my local IPSC clubs has been running 3-gun side matches, and I've been borrowing one of the other member's 1100's to shoot the stages. (I've got the pistol and rifle parts covered, and my 20 ga. grouse gun won't cut it for the shotgun part)

Anyways, I'm in the market for a general purpose 12 ga. I can use for Limited-class 3-gun, some skeet, turkeys, ducks, etc. I've been looking at 1100's and 11-87's. Several local shops have used versions of each in stock. Any pro vs. cons one over the other? Seems like there are a lot of aftermarket dodads for the 1100, not as much for the 11-87.

Thanks!

Doc H.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:07:58 PM EDT
No clue whatsoever, but tagged.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:16:29 PM EDT
Shotgun for 3 guns, seems to be dominated by the follwoing three:

Bernelli M1Super 90, used to be the fastest cycling shotgun
Remington 11-87, 1100 is becoming more and more rare
Winchester X-2, suppose to be faster in cycling than the Bernelli
Both Bernelli and Winchester offer a IPSC model.

Mods I have seen:
Mercury recoil reducer
Optics
Ported barrel
back-bore barrel (to improve pattern)
Extended magazine
Speed reload

Seems like, for 3 gun shotguns, they like longer barrel, unlike tactical shotgun, which the barrel are becoming shorter and shorter.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:17:33 PM EDT
I would get a Rem 870 express with the short barrel.
or maybe a Mossberg 500.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:19:15 PM EDT
Interesting, what's the average 3 gun shotty going for $$$ nowaday's with all those modifications?

Sounds pricey

EPOCH

Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:20:14 PM EDT
Mossberg 500.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:31:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
No clue whatsoever, but tagged.



+1
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:33:29 PM EDT
saiga 12 eight rd mags, lots of practice. McM
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT
get a 11-87 with a field barrel ($3-400 used )
buy a 20in rifle site barrel ($200new ) probably be hard to find used but hit ebay anyway
and extended mag tube ($40 new)
or do the same with a Super 90 but costs about 1/2 again more for the gun and parts
you can swith it back and forth for 3 gun and hunting
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:14:44 AM EDT
Almost every reply you got was by post-count whores and posers.

Go here for qualified answers to your questions: www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?s=9337dfb682a0ea50a27f4f2405c6d6ca&showforum=49

FWIW, most of the IPSC shotguns users around here are using Rem 1100/1187s. As mentioned in one of the other replies, you'll need a mag extension tube and decent sights.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:25:33 AM EDT
Compitition master hands down.
Every one i have fired has ran 100%

It is on my short list!
CH
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:45:01 AM EDT
I like a good pump shotgun. My next shot gun is going to be a MOssberg 835 turkey model.

835® TURKEY models
Features 12 ga. Pump Action, Woodlands Camo finish, synthetic stock, ported 24" VR overbored Accu-Mag barrel w/ Ulti-Full turkey choke tube and adjustable fiber optic sights

Drop the imporced cyclynder choke in and it good for slugs a 00 buck. NIce sights I love that shotgun.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:34:50 AM EDT
Be prepared to spend approx. $1000.00. If you are gonna play you might as well get what you want the first time. Some club members may have a used one for sale. GL
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:10:14 PM EDT
I use a Winchester Defender 12 gage. The only mods I have done is add a side saddle that holds 6 shells and add a fiber optic front site. Since I'm only interested in having fun, this setup works for me.

Vulcan94
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:13:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:15:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 11:22:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
saiga 12 eight rd mags, lots of practice. McM



You'd be destroyed by anyone with a semi and a speedloader. The Saiga's mag change is slow, too slow....and awkward to boot.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:10:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stipilot:
Almost every reply you got was by post-count whores and posers.

Go here for qualified answers to your questions: www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?s=9337dfb682a0ea50a27f4f2405c6d6ca&showforum=49

FWIW, most of the IPSC shotguns users around here are using Rem 1100/1187s. As mentioned in one of the other replies, you'll need a mag extension tube and decent sights.



yep
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:48:06 AM EDT
Limited-class: Semi, no pump, no Mossberg 500, no Remington 870, no detachable magazine, no saiga!.
The Remington is easy to adapt to different purposes: Competition, hunting, skeet... You will not need magnum 3” shells for IPSC, and the gas system of the 1100 is less complex (I have seen 11/87 with problems concerning the gas system). I would go with the 1100.

What would you need: Choke tube, rifle sights (no ghost ring, no optics), extended loading gate, no comp, no ports, 8rd mag capacity.

The Remington Competition Master is out of production.

Out of the box I would go with the Winchester SX2 limited for IPSC only. Everything you need.

Walli
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:53:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By walli:
Limited-class: Semi, no pump, no Mossberg 500, no Remington 870, no detachable magazine, no saiga!.
The Remington is easy to adapt to different purposes: Competition, hunting, skeet... You will not need magnum 3” shells for IPSC, and the gas system of the 1100 is less complex (I have seen 11/87 with problems concerning the gas system). I would go with the 1100.

What would you need: Choke tube, rifle sights (no ghost ring, no optics), extended loading gate, no comp, no ports, 8rd mag capacity.

The Remington Competition Master is out of production.

Out of the box I would go with the Winchester SX2 limited for IPSC only. Everything you need.

Walli


HOLY crap I didnt know that.....
<----- post whore
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:08:08 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies. (And thanks for the mods for moving this to the proper area)

I did a little more shopping around today. Lots of 1100's and 11-87's for sale, both new and used.

The two I am leaning toward right now are: (Both are used)

11-87, black synthetic stock 22 or 24" bbl (I forget which), 3 screw-in chokes for $495

or

Benelli M1 Super 90, 20" bbl, camo, 5 screw-in chokes, factory case, $650

Any reason to chose one over the other?

After doing a little on-line research, it seems some folks have had more trouble with small-parts breakage with the 1100's. Some folks also think the gas operated system of the 1100 is softer shooting than the Benelli's recoil operated system.

Also, I might have to invest in a shorter barrel for the Remington, which sort of obviates the higher price of the Benelli.

Thanks again!

Doc H.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:45:58 PM EDT
I would recommend the following article: Speed Shotgun
Very good information!

I would agree, that the Benelli kicks more. (Lighter and recoil operated).
With the Remington you might have more problem with parts breakage. The Remington system has more small parts (is more complex) that can break or need maintenance (gas rings!). But the gas system of the Remington is less ammunition sensitive and will work even if you do not hold the gun against your shoulder strong enough. The Benelli might or might not work reliable in this situation. The Remington can easily be modified by the shooter. This is not true with the Benelli. What is more important to you? Try to shoot a Benelli and a Remington side by side.

A 22” barrel would be perfect for limited: The barrel will have the same length as the magazine extension (8rd capacity). (I would not go with less than 21”)

What kind of sight are included? (Remington vent rib? Benelli rifle sights ?)

Walli
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:20:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 3:26:27 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
saiga 12 eight rd mags, lots of practice. McM



Yup. This is far and away the correct answer.

Of course, this will put you into Open class (since the rules of the game are written against anyone who uses a detachable magazine shotgun so people can still use 11/87's and Benellis and pretend they're still competitive) but all said and done, the Saiga 12 is the best system (and I own one of each and have shot the hell out of them all, so I feel I can talk with some authority over someone who is just promoting what they already have).

The Saiga 20's are maybe even a touch better presuming you aren't shooting against heavier steel poppers.

If you don't believe me, go set up a 20 or 30 target practical shotgun course. Run it with a Saiga 12, and challenge all comers to a timed race without any handicap.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:01:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:
If you don't believe me, go set up a 20 or 30 target practical shotgun course. Run it with a Saiga 12, and challenge all comers to a timed race without any handicap.



I'd like to see a Saiga, even with 8 round mags, outpace an 11/87 with speedloaders. No, scratch that, I'd like to see a single competitor on the national level run a Saiga and even stay in the field on shotgun.

I owned a Saiga-20, and while it was a fun gun and a good tactical shotgun, it's not fast enough for 3-gun against anyone with a fast speedload and decent technique. That AK-rock-in mag system is downright clumsy on the Saigas.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:47:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:50:23 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By swingset:
I'd like to see a Saiga, even with 8 round mags, outpace an 11/87 with speedloaders. No, scratch that, I'd like to see a single competitor on the national level run a Saiga and even stay in the field on shotgun.

I owned a Saiga-20, and while it was a fun gun and a good tactical shotgun, it's not fast enough for 3-gun against anyone with a fast speedload and decent technique. That AK-rock-in mag system is downright clumsy on the Saigas.



LOL!
As opposed to the remarkably fluid-in-action, three foot long tube-gun speedloaders?
You've got to be kidding...

FYI- Alex Wakal- a three gun competitor from the gulf region reports that Jerry Miculek really digs S20's for open class.
Ever heard of Jerry Miculek?

In any event, if you found the back-and-forth motion of the AK mag system too challenging for your own level of coordination, I am surprised that firearms are a chosen hobby.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:26:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
If you show up at an IPSC match with a pump gun you have admitted defeat before you even start. If you don't want to race then play some other game, if you show up on race day with a street car, you are not going have a chance at winning.



Negative, I usually finish in the top 10% or better with my 590A1 (mostly because I can reload it fast).

That being said, a remington competition master is what I would buy.

Link

Good Luck

G45
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:29:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:31:12 PM EDT by swingset]

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By swingset:
I'd like to see a Saiga, even with 8 round mags, outpace an 11/87 with speedloaders. No, scratch that, I'd like to see a single competitor on the national level run a Saiga and even stay in the field on shotgun.

I owned a Saiga-20, and while it was a fun gun and a good tactical shotgun, it's not fast enough for 3-gun against anyone with a fast speedload and decent technique. That AK-rock-in mag system is downright clumsy on the Saigas.



LOL!
As opposed to the remarkably fluid-in-action, three foot long tube-gun speedloaders?
You've got to be kidding...

FYI- Alex Wakal- a three gun competitor from the gulf region reports that Jerry Miculek really digs S20's for open class.
Ever heard of Jerry Miculek?

In any event, if you found the back-and-forth motion of the AK mag system too challenging for your own level of coordination, I am surprised that firearms are a chosen hobby.



First off, blow me. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, condescending jerkoff.

I've owned, and used both speedloading shotguns and the Saiga system, and there's no way, no how, not on this fucking earth that the Saiga is faster than a speedloader on a tube gun....not without MAJOR modification.

If it was, then Jerry Miculek would be using one and all of his competition would be too....and they'd show up in the winners circle. They aren't.

You have any sources that Miculek has competed, and been competitive with a Saiga? I seriously doubt that he has used one to good effect against his peers. I'll happily await a link that shows any of the big-dogs with an AK action. Show me someone who's won a major with one, plz.

<jeopardy theme>
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:57:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:59:11 PM EDT by 12345-678910-11-12]

Originally Posted By swingset:

You have any sources that Miculek has competed, and been competitive with a Saiga? I seriously doubt that he has used one to good effect against his peers. I'll happily await a link that shows any of the big-dogs with an AK action. Show me someone who's won a major with one, plz.

<jeopardy theme>



OK, let me explain to you 'how things work'.
Everyone uses (Model X).
Everyone continues to use (Model X) until that rare individual who chooses his firearms based on critical thinking skills rather than associative rationale uses something else, and displays to the hive that it is better.
Then, everyone else starts to use that too...

Saiga 12's are scarce as hens teeth right now.
The 8 round magazines are even worse.
There are very few Saiga 12's in Open class use because there are very few Saiga 12's to begin with.
Just like there are very few USAS12's in Open class use. Universally, a better system than any shotgun out there, but few in use because they are scarce and hard to obtain.
As far as my source about Miculek, for Christ’s fucking sake, moron. I gave you his goddamned name. If you want to source it, try a little known site called

www.google.com

You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use.
If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too.

If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset.

</jeopardy music>
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:04:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
saiga 12 eight rd mags, lots of practice. McM



You'd be destroyed by anyone with a semi and a speedloader. The Saiga's mag change is slow, too slow....and awkward to boot.



HUH?
Mags are by far the fastest, you must be a Master if you can use a speedloader faster than someone with a little practice can swap AK mags.
All Saiga mags are, are fatter AK mags, what's slow and awkward about that?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:18:00 PM EDT
I typically shoot Heavy Metal / He-man calss in 3gun matches, [.308, PUMP 12 only, Single Stack pistol] and my weapon of choice is a Mossberg 590. I also have an 1100 and IMHO you will not find a shotty out there that is cheaper, cheaper to accessorize and sweeter shooting than an 1100. Mine sports a +5 extention and a sidesaddle. When I want to wimp out and shoot the poodle shooter, I bring the 1100.

Sure you can spend a grand or even much more if you want, but for a beginner, you cannot go wrong with either of those choices. The most important thing is to practice, practice, practice. Familiarity beats fancy 9 out of 10 times...
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:49:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 9:32:55 PM EDT by Cape_hunter]
I have seen both in action and will say this. They both run fast and even if reloads with a Siage are faster, you cant top off your while running a stage.. NO sneaking a couple in on the run, or dropping on in on a locked back bolt for that emergency last shot. Its a full mag or nothing. That in itself is enough to keep me away from it. Not enough flexibility.
CH
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:56:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DocH:
Thanks for the replies. (And thanks for the mods for moving this to the proper area)

I did a little more shopping around today. Lots of 1100's and 11-87's for sale, both new and used.

The two I am leaning toward right now are: (Both are used)

11-87, black synthetic stock 22 or 24" bbl (I forget which), 3 screw-in chokes for $495

or

Benelli M1 Super 90, 20" bbl, camo, 5 screw-in chokes, factory case, $650

Any reason to chose one over the other?

After doing a little on-line research, it seems some folks have had more trouble with small-parts breakage with the 1100's. Some folks also think the gas operated system of the 1100 is softer shooting than the Benelli's recoil operated system.

Also, I might have to invest in a shorter barrel for the Remington, which sort of obviates the higher price of the Benelli.

Thanks again!

Doc H.



I love my Benelli. You will not be disappointed.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:08:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You have any sources that Miculek has competed, and been competitive with a Saiga? I seriously doubt that he has used one to good effect against his peers. I'll happily await a link that shows any of the big-dogs with an AK action. Show me someone who's won a major with one, plz.

<jeopardy theme>



OK, let me explain to you 'how things work'.
Everyone uses (Model X).
Everyone continues to use (Model X) until that rare individual who chooses his firearms based on critical thinking skills rather than associative rationale uses something else, and displays to the hive that it is better.
Then, everyone else starts to use that too...

Saiga 12's are scarce as hens teeth right now.
The 8 round magazines are even worse.
There are very few Saiga 12's in Open class use because there are very few Saiga 12's to begin with.
Just like there are very few USAS12's in Open class use. Universally, a better system than any shotgun out there, but few in use because they are scarce and hard to obtain.
As far as my source about Miculek, for Christ’s fucking sake, moron. I gave you his goddamned name. If you want to source it, try a little known site called

www.google.com

You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use.
If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too.

If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset.

</jeopardy music>



I can't call you any good names, it would violate the COC. So, just imagine what I think of you.

I'm still waiting for a single victory claimed with a Saiga shotgun in a major. And, I imagine I'll be waiting a long time.

I know precisely who Miculek is, and I've seen him run 3-gun many times, and NEVER with a Saiga. I can google him, I just did. Know what I found? Some people on a forum claim he has a couple 20's, and likes them. Big fucking deal. I had one too....I liked it as well. Why hasn't he one with one? Why hasn't anyone else on the top level?

If there's one thing I know alot about, it's speed shooters. If there were 1/2 second to be gained by cutting a testicle off, half the 3-gunners on earth would be short one ball. That's the god damned truth. If a Saiga was up to the task, the best shooters would be dominating with them.

Saigas are not ultra rare - at least they weren't before the EAA crap and trust me dork, no one was dominating 3-gun when you could buy one for $200 at Big-5. Even with being rare, if people wanted one now they still get their hands on one much cheaper than a hot-rod 3-gun rig....so again, why isn't the 3-gun community embracing them?

I'm done patting your ass and I don't think you're the kind of guy that will let up, so I'll just go on knowing what I know and you go on trying to convince yourself that your Saiga is faster than a $3000 custom. We both know its not, and that's all I need to say.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:10:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
We both know its not, and that's all I need to say.



And you are totally wrong.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 11:50:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By swingset:
We both know its not, and that's all I need to say.



And you are totally wrong.



Still waiting for the results of a single major 3-gun completed with a Saiga, where the shooter was even near the top of the standings.

Balls in your court, know it all. Clock is ticking.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 12:21:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Still waiting for the results of a single major 3-gun completed with a Saiga, where the shooter was even near the top of the standings.



I'll say the same thing about a USAS12.
Show me one single instance of a USAS12 being used by a shooter who was even near the top of the standings...

Universally recognized as a superior weapon to any of your tube-feds with those retarded yardstick speedloaders. Since your entire premise relies on 'who uses it' or 'who has placed with it', that must mean the USAS (which has a similar magazine lockup and release to an AR15) isn't a good gun, right?
It's idiotic, 3-Year-Old logic.

Anyway, the same dynamic governs both guns.

Just because you aren't able to grasp it doesn't change the facts.
It just means that you aren't able to grasp them.
I'm sorry if you aren't able to understand anything that is a bit nuanced... Maybe I can find some pictures for you.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:47:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Still waiting for the results of a single major 3-gun completed with a Saiga, where the shooter was even near the top of the standings.



I'll say the same thing about a USAS12.
Show me one single instance of a USAS12 being used by a shooter who was even near the top of the standings...

Universally recognized as a superior weapon to any of your tube-feds with those retarded yardstick speedloaders. Since your entire premise relies on 'who uses it' or 'who has placed with it', that must mean the USAS (which has a similar magazine lockup and release to an AR15) isn't a good gun, right?
It's idiotic, 3-Year-Old logic.

Anyway, the same dynamic governs both guns.

Just because you aren't able to grasp it doesn't change the facts.
It just means that you aren't able to grasp them.
I'm sorry if you aren't able to understand anything that is a bit nuanced... Maybe I can find some pictures for you.



You've never shot a 3-gun competition have you? It's okay you can admit that you don't have a clue about what it takes to actually compete.

Cape_Hunter nailed the major flaw is the inability to top off on the fly. Ever shot a stage that required mixed rounds? What would you do with a Siaga then? Make a full mag change? Prestack your mags and hope you don't miss a target? Assume the SNiVeL position?


I would also like to take the time to point out a flaw in your logic, or in your case a desparate attempt to avoid answering the question posed. You were first asked to provide the results from one major 3-gun competition where the shooter was near the top of the standings. Now, Swingset's question was probably unfair because he already knew the answer and knew that you were full of shit, but he had every right to challenge your "expertise" considering such fine statements as:

Of course, this will put you into Open class (since the rules of the game are written against anyone who uses a detachable magazine shotgun so people can still use 11/87's and Benellis and pretend they're still competitive)

You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use. If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too. If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset.

Instead of answering the question posed, which you quoted, you atttempted to save your ass by diversion. Why isn't the USAS12 being used by a top shooter in 3-gun? Because it sufferes from the same flaws as the Saiga which were previously mentioned. Additionally, a USAS12 is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by IPSC Rule 5.1.11, so no, I do not believe that "the same dynamic governs both guns."

SBG

PS - Here's a picture for you. Please learn from it.




Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:01:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns:
You've never shot a 3-gun competition have you? It's okay you can admit that you don't have a clue about what it takes to actually compete.

Cape_Hunter nailed the major flaw is the inability to top off on the fly. Ever shot a stage that required mixed rounds? What would you do with a Siaga then? Make a full mag change? Prestack your mags and hope you don't miss a target? Assume the SNiVeL position?
i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/scaryblackguns/snivel_table.gif




How dare you enter logic into this...gees!

"An irrational man never hears logic."
CH
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:00:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns:
You've never shot a 3-gun competition have you? It's okay you can admit that you don't have a clue about what it takes to actually compete.



It's okay to admit that you will say anything to continue to justify an inferior system.


Cape_Hunter nailed the major flaw is the inability to top off on the fly. Ever shot a stage that required mixed rounds? What would you do with a Siaga then? Make a full mag change? Prestack your mags and hope you don't miss a target? Assume the SNiVeL position?


That's about as lame as people saying the reason the 1911 is better than striker fired guns is 'second strike capability'- a totally pathetic reach.
I'll explain to you how you do an ammo transition in a Saiga, since apparently your gray matter isn't able to solve that complex problem yourself.

Yes, if you need slug you do change a magazine.
Seeing how quickly this can be done, it isn't that big of a deal at all.
Since the overall reload speed of the magazine fed system totally negates the slight speed loss the Saiga incurrs when doing a slug drill, it still stays way, way ahead of the timer.


Why isn't the USAS12 being used by a top shooter in 3-gun? Because it sufferes from the same flaws as the Saiga which were previously mentioned. Additionally, a USAS12 is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by IPSC Rule 5.1.11, so no, I do not believe that "the same dynamic governs both guns."


LOL!
Idiot, ask yourself why they prohibit that one gun by name. It's because it totally dominates everything else in the field and isn't 'fair' to everyone with tube fed guns.

Here's a picture for you.
I don't think you can learn anything from it, but it's pretty representative of who I am debating in this trhead.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:16:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 2:25:17 PM EDT by SinistralRifleman]
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:10:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Cape_Hunter nailed the major flaw is the inability to top off on the fly. Ever shot a stage that required mixed rounds? What would you do with a Siaga then? Make a full mag change? Prestack your mags and hope you don't miss a target? Assume the SNiVeL position?


That's about as lame as people saying the reason the 1911 is better than striker fired guns is 'second strike capability'- a totally pathetic reach.
I'll explain to you how you do an ammo transition in a Saiga, since apparently your gray matter isn't able to solve that complex problem yourself.



Its all fun and games until the match director has a load one fire one stage. Or loose rounds from a box. Oh btw, those things happen in a 3 gun match. Have fun loading your mags
CH
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:36:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stipilot:
Almost every reply you got was by post-count whores and posers.
...FWIW, most of the IPSC shotguns users around here are using Rem 1100/1187s. As mentioned in one of the other replies, you'll need a mag extension tube and decent sights.





I like my Remington 1100.

Signed - Post Whore & Poser.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:18:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns:

Additionally, a USAS12 is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by IPSC Rule 5.1.11, so no, I do not believe that "the same dynamic governs both guns."

SBG





Actually, IPSC Rule 5.1.11 doesn't specifically prohibit a USAS 12. The rule says that, "Shotguns offering “burst” and/or fully automatic operation (i.e. whereby more than one round can be discharged on a single pull or activation of the trigger) are prohibited. That would prohibit any model of shotgun that was capable of “burst” and/or fully automatic operation.

Since according to Modern Firearms & Ammunition Site there are semi auto only USAS 12's, those would be legal for use under the IPSC rules. That being said, as a member of the USPSA, I've have never read in the journal "Front Site" of a USAS 12 being used in a 3-gun match. IIRC, I believe Saiga's have been used.


Vulcan94
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:51:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:52:25 PM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By 12345-678910-11-12:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You have any sources that Miculek has competed, and been competitive with a Saiga? I seriously doubt that he has used one to good effect against his peers. I'll happily await a link that shows any of the big-dogs with an AK action. Show me someone who's won a major with one, plz.

<jeopardy theme>



OK, let me explain to you 'how things work'.
Everyone uses (Model X).
Everyone continues to use (Model X) until that rare individual who chooses his firearms based on critical thinking skills rather than associative rationale uses something else, and displays to the hive that it is better.
Then, everyone else starts to use that too...

Saiga 12's are scarce as hens teeth right now.
The 8 round magazines are even worse.
There are very few Saiga 12's in Open class use because there are very few Saiga 12's to begin with.
Just like there are very few USAS12's in Open class use. Universally, a better system than any shotgun out there, but few in use because they are scarce and hard to obtain.
As far as my source about Miculek, for Christ’s fucking sake, moron. I gave you his goddamned name. If you want to source it, try a little known site called

www.google.com

You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use.
If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too.

If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset.

</jeopardy music>



I can't call you any good names, it would violate the COC. So, just imagine what I think of you.

I'm still waiting for a single victory claimed with a Saiga shotgun in a major. And, I imagine I'll be waiting a long time.

I know precisely who Miculek is, and I've seen him run 3-gun many times, and NEVER with a Saiga. I can google him, I just did. Know what I found? Some people on a forum claim he has a couple 20's, and likes them. Big fucking deal. I had one too....I liked it as well. Why hasn't he one with one? Why hasn't anyone else on the top level?

If there's one thing I know alot about, it's speed shooters. If there were 1/2 second to be gained by cutting a testicle off, half the 3-gunners on earth would be short one ball. That's the god damned truth. If a Saiga was up to the task, the best shooters would be dominating with them.

Saigas are not ultra rare - at least they weren't before the EAA crap and trust me dork, no one was dominating 3-gun when you could buy one for $200 at Big-5. Even with being rare, if people wanted one now they still get their hands on one much cheaper than a hot-rod 3-gun rig....so again, why isn't the 3-gun community embracing them?

I'm done patting your ass and I don't think you're the kind of guy that will let up, so I'll just go on knowing what I know and you go on trying to convince yourself that your Saiga is faster than a $3000 custom. We both know its not, and that's all I need to say.



No offense, but...
This is beginning to sound an awful LOT like kids talking about tourney-ball (paintball played in a flat arena filled with plastic/inflatable obstacles).
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 11:11:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:

Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns:

Additionally, a USAS12 is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by IPSC Rule 5.1.11, so no, I do not believe that "the same dynamic governs both guns."

SBG





Actually, IPSC Rule 5.1.11 doesn't specifically prohibit a USAS 12. The rule says that, "Shotguns offering “burst” and/or fully automatic operation (i.e. whereby more than one round can be discharged on a single pull or activation of the trigger) are prohibited. That would prohibit any model of shotgun that was capable of “burst” and/or fully automatic operation.

Since according to Modern Firearms & Ammunition Site there are semi auto only USAS 12's, those would be legal for use under the IPSC rules. That being said, as a member of the USPSA, I've have never read in the journal "Front Site" of a USAS 12 being used in a 3-gun match. IIRC, I believe Saiga's have been used.


Vulcan94



Vulcan,

Thanks for the correction. I did not realize that the USAS 12 had been manufactured in a semi auto, but I did not find any description of a semi auto USAS 12 on that website. It only described it as selective fire.

I agree that Saiga's have been used and under ideal circumstances can be used very effectively in a competition, however given the unique (sadistic) quirks that 3-gun match directors seem to have in stage design I just don't believe that the platform is flexible enough for serious competition use.

I looked into a Saiga when EAA first started to import them. I was impressed and thought that they would soon begin to dominate the sport. However, the more I considered their limitations the more I knew that I would not use a Saiga in competition.

This is not to say that a flexible magazine fed platform could not rise to dominate the sport. However, it is unlikely that anyone who wants to market a budget gun is going to take the time to engineer an entirely new system just for the 3-gun competitions.

Sinstral,

I really don't know whose rules dominate major 3-gun competitions, however I did know that the USPSA had adopted the IPSC shotgun rules and knew that 5.1.11 was the same in both. However, that being said I do not know of any major 3-gun competition that will allow a selective fire shotgun to be used.

I also agree that speed loaders are a pain in the ass and require a TON of practice, maintenance, practice, replacement and practice to function properly. I also agree that for most of us (me included) the magazine platform will allow for an easier quick reload, but given the format of the competition no current magazine based system offers a significant advantage to a shooter who is proficient with his speed loaders.

SBG
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 12:06:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 12:19:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
scaryblackguns,

International Multigun Style rules dominate at most 3 Gun Matches...modified for the match in particular, and to the tastes of those running the match.

In designing the courses for our 3 gun match in Waco this September, I intentionally designed them so that a magazine fed shotgun would not be an advantage over conventional set ups....unless the operator puts a lot of thought into how they want to shoot the stage.

If someone wants to at our match they can shoot with select fire shotguns, rifles, belt fed machine guns, or sub-machine guns...not sure if any of it is a real advantage, but if people want to use it and they lawfully posess it, they are welcome to do so.

www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gun.html



[Carl]Frickin' AWSOME[/Carl]

I am on the way to one of your matches. Local range prohibits Class III and frowns when you actually shoot one in a match.

I keep thinking I should move to Arizona...

SBG

PS -- Now you see what I mean by sadistic match directors!
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 12:42:19 PM EDT
DocH - You have to know only one name in shotguns..........BENELLI! Although you may want to go with a longer barrel for your three-gun match.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1123.jpg
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 1:25:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 1:53:32 AM EDT
All I can say is at the 3 gun shoots I have been at you see four shotguns used by most.
Benelli Super 90
Remington 1100 Competition Master
Remington 1187
Winchester SX2
Not to say these are the best......But a lot of people are running them for score.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:52:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 7:53:53 AM EDT by Scollins]
The USAS-12 in semi-auto is classified as a Destructive Device. For a 3-Gun competitor that travels to many states for many matches, that is a huge encumberance. Not only do you have to fill out the NFA forms to buy it (with the CLEO signoff, wait time and $200 tax,) you also have to fill out Form 5320.20 every time you want to cross a state line with it. Also, some states don't allow civilian ownership of DDs, so the competitor may not be able to bring it to every match.

Lastly, a fully loaded USAS-12 weighs about 13 lbs. That is pretty heavy for a competition gun, since you will do a lot of "running and gunning."

As far as the Saiga debate, the Saiga will probably never beat the speedloaders because the Saiga lacks one very significant feature, a bolt hold open. If the Saiga had a bolt hold open, then it would be a lot faster to reload than it currently is. I shoot 3 gun matches, and I watch the open class guys with their speedloaders, and it is amazing how fast they can reload.

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